Local florist refuses to service same-sex marriage

[cereb]

"As long as we're handing out all these rights to "protected classes"...what about the right to practice your religion in YOUR own business, which is the point of this whole thread?"

You don't have the right as a business person in WA to discriminate against any person because of their sexual orientation. It's that simple.

[cereb]

"What kind of "Christian" food would you like at your wedding?"


Christians have "Christian foods"?  Who knew!

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 9:54:34 GMT -5 cereb said:

"As long as we're handing out all these rights to "protected classes"...what about the right to practice your religion in YOUR own business, which is the point of this whole thread?"

You don't have the right as a business person in WA to discriminate against any person because of their sexual orientation. It's that simple.

She isn't discriminating due to sexual orientation.  She sells to gays, she hires gays.  No issue there.  She is refusing to participate in an event along side gays celebrating a ceremony she considers to be anathema.

[Deleted]

Yes.  And it will cost her $2000 to do that.

[cereb]

"She isn't discriminating due to sexual orientation.  She sells to gays, she hires gays.  No issue there.  She is refusing to participate in an event along side gays celebrating a ceremony she considers to be anathema."


What part of "gay wedding" don't you understand?

[thyme4change]

Apr 12, 2013 9:52:11 GMT -5 cereb said:

Apr 12, 2013 9:33:28 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Same situation- they will SERVE infidels, they will HIRE infidels, but they draw the line at catering the wedding-- no Imam, infidels as far as the eye can see- they just won't do it. Or here- for extra fun- let's say the Muslim restaurant won't cater a GAY wedding- because you can rest assured they will NOT do that.

no, your made up situation still isn't in the ballpark.

I could see how a Muslim restaurant wouldn't cater a gay wedding.  Same as the OP.  I could see how a Muslim restaurant wouldn't cater a christian wedding.  I don't see how this is not in the ballpark.

[Deleted]

she isnt guilty yet.....and the judge may find the waters are a little hot

just saying

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 9:55:48 GMT -5 cereb said:

"What kind of "Christian" food would you like at your wedding?"


Christians have "Christian foods"?  Who knew!

Are you having trouble distinguishing between products and services? 

I'm not talking about the product.  I'm saying we order catering from the Muslim owned restaurant.  They find out it's a Christian (or gay) wedding ceremony and for religious reasons they are forbidden from participating.

This is the EXACT SAME SCENARIO.

I'm just wondering how far you statists are willing to go with the guns to force your beliefs down everyone's throats.  The belief that gays can marry, that this is a normal, valid part of everyday life and that people need to be forced at gunpoint by the state to participate in it, or its discrimination-- is a non-starter.  It doesn't pass even the lowest bar imaginable for the First Amendment.

The bottom line is that the woman is right that due to the prohibition of government to interfere with the free exercise of her religion, she may have to hire, and she may have to sell product to gays, but she cannot be forced to participate in providing a service she finds morally repugnant.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 10:04:19 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Yes.  And it will cost her $2000 to do that.

It's going to cost the State a lot more.  They're going to lose this.  It's not even going to be difficult.  It may be long- but the decision will be a snap.  Hell, even the 9th Circus might manage a sane ruling on this one.

[kittensaver]

Apr 12, 2013 9:54:34 GMT -5 cereb said:

"As long as we're handing out all these rights to "protected classes"...what about the right to practice your religion in YOUR own business, which is the point of this whole thread?"

You don't have the right as a business person in WA to discriminate against any person because of their sexual orientation. It's that simple.

So much .

If you want to pick and choose who you serve, don't open a business on a public street and take out a State license to do business that includes some legal requirements you might not like.

Plenty of folks of all stripes (Muslims, and all the other groups that have been mentioned recently) don't take out licenses, don't have public store fronts, don't advertise their services to the public and only serve their chosen folks. Lots of service folks work word-of-mouth only. That's their choice - and I don't disagree with it. But holding yourself out to the public for business and then defying the rules of the license that comes with that business is a no-no.

In the hypothetical case, IF the Muslims hold themselves out as a business to the public and then refuse to serve someone BECAUSE OF THEIR PROTECTED CLASS STATUS ("I don't like you because you're a Jew - you're Christian - your gay - whatever") that would be breaking the law. Merely pointing out that pig is not on their menu is not discriminatory

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 10:03:16 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 12, 2013 9:54:34 GMT -5 cereb said:

"As long as we're handing out all these rights to "protected classes"...what about the right to practice your religion in YOUR own business, which is the point of this whole thread?"

You don't have the right as a business person in WA to discriminate against any person because of their sexual orientation. It's that simple.

She isn't discriminating due to sexual orientation.  She sells to gays, she hires gays.  No issue there.  She is refusing to participate in an event along side gays celebrating a ceremony she considers to be anathema.

Does the woman provide floral statements for heterosexual weddings? .

It's also against the law in Washington to discriminate against potential employees because of their sexual orientation. Fines up to $10,000 are posible. So she really can't be commended for hiring gay people.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

The point I would make is that for a truly all-inclusive, live and let live society to thrive we cannot have government running around with guns forcing people to violate their consciences. She has the right to refuse service to anyone. She doesn't even have to state why. If she was more clever, she would have asked for the date and said she was booked no matter what date(s) they gave her. My guess is that these are gay activists who are deliberately pushing the issue because what they want is the government to put a gun to the heads of anyone who objects to their choice of lifestyle and force them to accept it as normal, as morally acceptable. Some of us don't think it is. And some of us have a duty to stand our ground because of our faith. It might be, however, that because the state is so corrupt and the Constitution so rarely upheld- that she is forced out of business for refusing to participate in an event that violates her conscience. So be it. It is sad, it is unjust, but so is being fed to the lions, or dipped in oil and used to light gardens. Christians have endured worse in history, and open persecution is in its infancy now in the United States-- but it is growing, and will be full bloom soon.

You liberals will have it your way. We cannot stop you. You will keep defeating conservatives in election after election. You will continue to wear us out, and to persecute us. And like little children who throw a temper tantrum and get your way- you will see that you don't like the consequences of destroying what we have gifted you. You didn't build this, you didn't create it, you don't know how we got it- and you don't possess the tools to keep it. You just look at it like the prodigal looked at his share of the inheritance- like you're entitled to it, you know better what to do with it, and you all think you're soooooo smart.

You'll come running home one day covered in pig shit and I just want you to know: we will be gracious to you. We will clean you up, celebrate your home coming, and get on with the feast. I won't even say, "You're welcome"

[kittensaver]

Apr 12, 2013 9:34:17 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Apr 12, 2013 9:03:57 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

I kinda get the feeling that if you were denied a right to vote, a job, an education, the ability to participate in free commerce in society merely because of the genitals you were born with, you'd maybe be singing a different tune . . . ?

Oh wait, being in a protected class (female) keeps that from happening to you (mostly, in this country, at least).

Ah how soon we ("the collective we") forget . . .

As long as we're handing out all these rights to "protected classes"...what about the right to practice your religion in YOUR own business, which is the point of this whole thread?

You get to practice your religion without fear that someone shut your church down. Your church has a right to be here. Guess what? Gays have a right to be here too.

You religion does NOT get to inform or dictate to society how business operates in a multi-cultural, non-sectarian, pluralistic society.

[mmhmm]

Apr 12, 2013 9:34:17 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Apr 12, 2013 9:03:57 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

I kinda get the feeling that if you were denied a right to vote, a job, an education, the ability to participate in free commerce in society merely because of the genitals you were born with, you'd maybe be singing a different tune . . . ?

Oh wait, being in a protected class (female) keeps that from happening to you (mostly, in this country, at least).

Ah how soon we ("the collective we") forget . . .

As long as we're handing out all these rights to "protected classes"...what about the right to practice your religion in YOUR own business, which is the point of this whole thread?

That may be the point of the whole thread to you, lonewolf, but I'm pretty sure it's not the point to everyone.  It's not the point to me.  The point is, it's against the law in Washington state to discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation and this woman, in the determination of the Attorney General of the state of Washington, has run afoul of that law.

[Deleted]

again.....i will never tell someone who didnt get a job, why i chose someone else

all it does is open up a can of worms

and nothing says i have to tell them anything....

and no replies to # 268

anyone ever been to a wedding where the florist was never seen, and just sent a truck with the flowers?

[mmhmm]

... what they want is the government to put a gun to the heads of anyone who objects to their choice of lifestyle and force them to accept it as normal, as morally acceptable.

Nobody is trying to force anyone to accept anything.  That cannot be done.  You don't have to accept any choice of lifestyle as normal, or morally acceptable.  You cannot, however, dictate what I will accept as normal and acceptable.  You can accept or reject.  You will not dictate whether others accept or reject.

[kittensaver]

"You will continue to wear us out, and to persecute us."

=============

How - exactly - are you being persecuted? This is a straight, non-sarcastic question. I really, REALLY want a straight answer.

How is someone else's relationship or marriage harming you?

[cereb]

Apr 12, 2013 10:18:35 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

The point I would make is that for a truly all-inclusive, live and let live society to thrive we cannot have government running around with guns forcing people to violate their consciences. She has the right to refuse service to anyone. She doesn't even have to state why. If she was more clever, she would have asked for the date and said she was booked no matter what date(s) they gave her. My guess is that these are gay activists who are deliberately pushing the issue because what they want is the government to put a gun to the heads of anyone who objects to their choice of lifestyle and force them to accept it as normal, as morally acceptable. Some of us don't think it is. And some of us have a duty to stand our ground because of our faith. It might be, however, that because the state is so corrupt and the Constitution so rarely upheld- that she is forced out of business for refusing to participate in an event that violates her conscience. So be it. It is sad, it is unjust, but so is being fed to the lions, or dipped in oil and used to light gardens. Christians have endured worse in history, and open persecution is in its infancy now in the United States-- but it is growing, and will be full bloom soon.

You liberals will have it your way. We cannot stop you. You will keep defeating conservatives in election after election. You will continue to wear us out, and to persecute us. And like little children who throw a temper tantrum and get your way- you will see that you don't like the consequences of destroying what we have gifted you. You didn't build this, you didn't create it, you don't know how we got it- and you don't possess the tools to keep it. You just look at it like the prodigal looked at his share of the inheritance- like you're entitled to it, you know better what to do with it, and you all think you're soooooo smart.

You'll come running home one day covered in pig shit and I just want you to know: we will be gracious to you. We will clean you up, celebrate your home coming, and get on with the feast. I won't even say, "You're welcome"

I'm done. This is like trying to have a conversation with a goat.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

The market will respond to the needs of gays if allowed to function. Someone will realize that there's tremendous opportunity to make a buck here and we don't need to put a gun to the head of this woman and force her to violate her conscience.

And seriously- are there no gay florists. I mean, c'mon. What could be more gay than flowers and shit.

[kittensaver]

Apr 12, 2013 10:25:17 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

The market will respond to the needs of gays if allowed to function. Someone will realize that there's tremendous opportunity to make a buck here and we don't need to put a gun to the head of this woman and force her to violate her conscience.

And seriously- are there no gay florists. I mean, c'mon. What could be more gay than flowers and shit.

How is someone else's gay relationship harming you?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 10:22:44 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

"You will continue to wear us out, and to persecute us."

=============

How - exactly - are you being persecuted? This is a straight, non-sarcastic question. I really, REALLY want a straight answer.

How is someone else's relationship or marriage harming you?

It's not.  I'm fine with gay people doing whatever it is they want to do.  I just don't want to see people forced at gun point to do anything they simply don't want to do- for ANY reason.  I'm a REAL libertarian on this issue.  I don't see the need to involve government in marriage, or sexuality, or any of it.  Leave people alone, we'll figure it out.  

I want to ask you a serious question:  How is ONE florist (or even 100) refusing to participate in a gay wedding "harming" the happy couple.  Did they exhaust all their resources to find a florist- do they even NEED a florist at all- could they DIY this, or could someone else?

[thyme4change]

Plenty of folks of all stripes (Muslims, and all the other groups that have been mentioned recently) don't take out licenses,

So, they break one law to avoid breaking another?  Fantastic.  [/span]

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

And another serious question- why does the state need to put a gun to the head of this florist and force her to participate in this wedding? How is this a legitimate use of force by the state? The state is to protect our rights, not violate them. Not make sure we aren't offended. The fact is- there is no "right" to flowers, period. For that matter, there's no "right" to marriage. Marriage is a privilege defined by the state(s).

[kittensaver]

Last time I checked, no one was forcing this woman at gunpoint. Where does holding guns to people's heads come in to this situation?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 10:29:36 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Plenty of folks of all stripes (Muslims, and all the other groups that have been mentioned recently) don't take out licenses,

So, they break one law to avoid breaking another?  Fantastic.  

No one said that.  I know this might come as a great shock to you- but you don't NEED a license in many places to do business.  Even in the People's Republic of Illinois, you can start a lot of service businesses on the spot, out of your house and the only requirement is to report the income.

[b2r]

   But....I'm GAY!!!

 

 

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 10:18:35 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

The point I would make is that for a truly all-inclusive, live and let live society to thrive we cannot have government running around with guns forcing people to violate their consciences. She has the right to refuse service to anyone. She doesn't even have to state why. If she was more clever, she would have asked for the date and said she was booked no matter what date(s) they gave her. My guess is that these are gay activists who are deliberately pushing the issue because what they want is the government to put a gun to the heads of anyone who objects to their choice of lifestyle and force them to accept it as normal, as morally acceptable. Some of us don't think it is. And some of us have a duty to stand our ground because of our faith. It might be, however, that because the state is so corrupt and the Constitution so rarely upheld- that she is forced out of business for refusing to participate in an event that violates her conscience. So be it. It is sad, it is unjust, but so is being fed to the lions, or dipped in oil and used to light gardens. Christians have endured worse in history, and open persecution is in its infancy now in the United States-- but it is growing, and will be full bloom soon.

You liberals will have it your way. We cannot stop you. You will keep defeating conservatives in election after election. You will continue to wear us out, and to persecute us. And like little children who throw a temper tantrum and get your way- you will see that you don't like the consequences of destroying what we have gifted you. You didn't build this, you didn't create it, you don't know how we got it- and you don't possess the tools to keep it. You just look at it like the prodigal looked at his share of the inheritance- like you're entitled to it, you know better what to do with it, and you all think you're soooooo smart.

You'll come running home one day covered in pig shit and I just want you to know: we will be gracious to you. We will clean you up, celebrate your home coming, and get on with the feast. I won't even say, "You're welcome"

Utter rubbish as usual.

Paul-you even state she sells and hires gays. The woman has been selling flowers to these two guys for ten years. Suddenly they are activists?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 10:32:06 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Last time I checked, no one was forcing this woman at gunpoint. Where does holding guns to people's heads come in?

Government is force.  You need to follow the logic of this- she says NO.  The state says you WILL. She still says NO- what happens next?  The state says FINE.  She still says NO.  What now?  The only thing the government ultimately has is guns.  The state is a gun.

[kittensaver]

Apr 12, 2013 10:33:33 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:32:06 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Last time I checked, no one was forcing this woman at gunpoint. Where does holding guns to people's heads come in?

Government is force.  You need to follow the logic of this- she says NO.  The state says you WILL. She still says NO- what happens next?  The state says FINE.  She still says NO.  What now?  The only thing the government ultimately has is guns.  The state is a gun.

No. sorry.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 10:33:15 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:18:35 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

The point I would make is that for a truly all-inclusive, live and let live society to thrive we cannot have government running around with guns forcing people to violate their consciences. She has the right to refuse service to anyone. She doesn't even have to state why. If she was more clever, she would have asked for the date and said she was booked no matter what date(s) they gave her. My guess is that these are gay activists who are deliberately pushing the issue because what they want is the government to put a gun to the heads of anyone who objects to their choice of lifestyle and force them to accept it as normal, as morally acceptable. Some of us don't think it is. And some of us have a duty to stand our ground because of our faith. It might be, however, that because the state is so corrupt and the Constitution so rarely upheld- that she is forced out of business for refusing to participate in an event that violates her conscience. So be it. It is sad, it is unjust, but so is being fed to the lions, or dipped in oil and used to light gardens. Christians have endured worse in history, and open persecution is in its infancy now in the United States-- but it is growing, and will be full bloom soon.

You liberals will have it your way. We cannot stop you. You will keep defeating conservatives in election after election. You will continue to wear us out, and to persecute us. And like little children who throw a temper tantrum and get your way- you will see that you don't like the consequences of destroying what we have gifted you. You didn't build this, you didn't create it, you don't know how we got it- and you don't possess the tools to keep it. You just look at it like the prodigal looked at his share of the inheritance- like you're entitled to it, you know better what to do with it, and you all think you're soooooo smart.

You'll come running home one day covered in pig shit and I just want you to know: we will be gracious to you. We will clean you up, celebrate your home coming, and get on with the feast. I won't even say, "You're welcome"

Utter rubbish as usual.

Paul-you even state she sells and hires gays. The woman has been selling flowers to these two guys for ten years. Suddenly they are activists?

Right.  She's not discriminating against them at all based on their sexual orientation- I already made that point.  They want to force the normalization of gay marriage on her, and she's not down with that.  She did NOT refuse to sell them flowers.  They may buy all the flowers they like.