Local florist refuses to service same-sex marriage

[chiver78]

Apr 11, 2013 21:48:24 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

My florist stayed and made sure all the groomsmen were perfect, and my girls and I were all set, and waited until the ceremony started to make sure everything looked right in the facility, etc.  So, my florist was practically a fluffer.

having served as the florist who "put it all together" for a couple weddings recently, I can absolutely say your florist did more than just "fluff" the day of. just saying.....

[Deleted]

Are you saying it that when the bible 'condemns' something you don't like, it is right... But when it condemns something you do like, it is just an 'inconsistency' ...

“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”  Anne Lamott

[TonyTiger]

Apr 11, 2013 21:58:49 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

*chuckle*  Okay, we've had a bit of a break here, but let's get off the bible, and religion and back on the subject under discussion, please. - mmhmm, P&M Moderator

Ahhhhh, but the delicious part of this, is that this politically and socially volatile episode has its basis in religious belief, and they're too inextricably interwove, to separate them entirely.

We can try to do a better job of refraining from diving too deeply into the religious aspects of it - other than as a point of clarification - but I'm sure it's gonna be difficult to keep 'em separated, well, or for long.

[kittensaver]

Okay, so (sadly) here is what I take away from this thread:

"If I'm gay you have the right - without consequences - to shun me and even put (and keep) systems in place to deny me the rights you enjoy because you have thousands of years and eons of generations with cultural and traditional practices that says it's okay to do that to me, but if I question your religious beliefs and their relevance and appropriateness in a non-sectarian, pluralistic society I'm persecuting you."

So sad. G'night all.

[thyme4change]

I don't know - is buying flowers from someone else really a denial of rights?  I don't really believe that as much as I don't believe that forcing someone to sell you flowers is persecution.  

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 22:03:00 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Okay, so (sadly) here is what I take away from this thread:

"If I'm gay you have the right - without consequences - to shun me and even put (and keep) systems in place to deny me the rights you enjoy because you have thousands of years and eons of generations with cultural and traditional practices that says it's okay to do that to me, but if I question your religious beliefs and their relevance and appropriateness in a non-sectarian, pluralistic society I'm persecuting you."

So sad. G'night all.

That is not what most here believe.  Just a few. 

[TonyTiger]

Apr 11, 2013 22:01:35 GMT -5 oped said:

Are you saying it that when the bible 'condemns' something you don't like, it is right... But when it condemns something you do like, it is just an 'inconsistency' ...

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Not at all. In my mind I was referring to the inconsistencies between what is praised and condemned in various Ancient Religious Texts and what is practiced or condoned or tolerated by society today.

I did a really krappy job of articulating it that way, however.

Oh, and, don't lump me in with the Cafeteria Christians just yet - nowhere up and down the line here will you see me passing judgment on Right and Wrong or Right and Inconsistency, in our happy little context.

I merely share whatever modest insight that seems worth sharing at the time.

[TonyTiger]

Apr 11, 2013 22:03:00 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Okay, so (sadly) here is what I take away from this thread:

"If I'm gay you have the right - without consequences - to shun me..."

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If I believe that you are an evil or unholy or unclean person, I would have every right to shun you.

The florist in question merely refused service to (whom she believed to be) such a person, but she made one mistake in today's society: she articulated the reason; honest woman that she was.

====================

"...and even put (and keep) systems in place to deny me the rights you enjoy because you have thousands of years and eons of generations with cultural and traditional practices that says it's okay to do that to me..."

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But evil and unholy and unclean persons are to be avoided, are they not? 

====================

"...but if I question your religious beliefs and their relevance and appropriateness in a non-sectarian, pluralistic society I'm persecuting you."

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You confuse the temporary safety of this non-sectarian, pluralistic (and, legally, fairly artificial) society of ours with the long-term global perspective on such behaviors.

The laws against Sodomy carried fairly harsh penalties, and a few of those are still on the books, while others have only been rescinded or largely set aside well within living memory.

Laws are easily change-able, when viewed on a timeline that spans decades and lifetimes and longer... and the pendulum is likely to swing back in the other direction until the next such cycle begins.

And you can question all you like.

What you can NOT do is to hold your own perspective as one whit superior to their own, while accusing them of doing the same thing. 

Oh, and, with respect to 'non-sectarian pluralistic society'...

We need to look no further than the Marine Corps mantra: "God, Country, Corps" (and, note the pecking-order or sequencing here) or the motto on our money "In God We Trust" to have the reality hit you in the face that we are a nation of largely religious folk engaged in a great, multi-generational experiment to govern ourselves without letting that aspect of our Majority have too strong an influence upon that governance - while conceding and grasping the reality that there is a vast ocean of difference between what lies in the hearts of most of our fellow citizens and what shows up black-and-white in the law books.

====================

"...So sad. G'night all."

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Agreed. It is, indeed, sad, for that miniscule sliver of the total population which is affected by such matters.

[mmhmm]

Apr 11, 2013 22:02:17 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Apr 11, 2013 21:58:49 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

*chuckle*  Okay, we've had a bit of a break here, but let's get off the bible, and religion and back on the subject under discussion, please. - mmhmm, P&M Moderator

Ahhhhh, but the delicious part of this, is that this politically and socially volatile episode has its basis in religious belief, and they're too inextricably interwove, to separate them entirely.

We can try to do a better job of refraining from diving too deeply into the religious aspects of it - other than as a point of clarification - but I'm sure it's gonna be difficult to keep 'em separated, well, or for long.

I don't think it will be difficult, at all, Tony.  We've got some darned sharp posters.  While the woman's religious beliefs were, she claimed, behind her refusal to provide for the needs of a customer, that's not the crux of the matter.  The crux of the matter is whether, or not, she was within the law.  The Attorney General of Washington state seems to think she was not.

[thyme4change]

At the end of the day - she should pay the $2000 fine, still not do the wedding, and be known in the community as someone who is not gay friendly, which may hurt her business.  

Now, if the gay community really wants to jack her over - they should file in there at the rate of 10 per day.  If she refuses all their weddings, she will owe $2,000 per and have to close her business by the second day.  If she, however, reverses and does the weddings - she will spend eternity in hell for not obeying Jesus.

Man, I love religion!

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I want my Muslim restaurant to serve up some bacon. Or else.

[Opti]

I guess I don't fully see how she is practicing her religion by refusing to sell them flowers for a wedding. If they have been customers of hers for years and the bible is against men having sex with other men ... why was she selling them flowers before they got married? Was she pretending they were platonic friends then but now suddenly since it is a wedding it is different?


That's what confuses me in regards to her "practicing" her religion.

[jackthelad]

Business is business has a Jew would say, the florist was most definitely not a Jew, narrow minded but definitely not Jewish, Shalom.

[Shooby]

So, why not just go find another florist?  If the florist doesn't want to provide the flowers, would you want the florist to then make arrangements for you?  I wouldn't.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 1:12:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I want my Muslim restaurant to serve up some bacon. Or else.

They aren't telling her what flowers to carry. But if she carries them, and a Muslim/gay person/African American wants to buy them, she cannot refuse to sell to a specific person based on religion/sexual orientation/ race... Etc.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 6:00:27 GMT -5 Shooby said:

So, why not just go find another florist?  If the florist doesn't want to provide the flowers, would you want the florist to then make arrangements for you?  I wouldn't.

Good morning, Shooby.
Have a good one!

Never too early for good tune.


 

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2013 22:06:11 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I don't know - is buying flowers from someone else really a denial of rights?  I don't really believe that as much as I don't believe that forcing someone to sell you flowers is persecution.  

No more than sitting at a lunch counter is.

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2013 22:01:27 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 11, 2013 21:48:24 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

My florist stayed and made sure all the groomsmen were perfect, and my girls and I were all set, and waited until the ceremony started to make sure everything looked right in the facility, etc.  So, my florist was practically a fluffer.

having served as the florist who "put it all together" for a couple weddings recently, I can absolutely say your florist did more than just "fluff" the day of. just saying.....

I think she meant fluffer in the urban dictionary, ultimate thankless yet essential job sense.

[Shooby]

Apr 12, 2013 6:06:28 GMT -5 oped said:

Apr 12, 2013 1:12:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I want my Muslim restaurant to serve up some bacon. Or else.

They aren't telling her what flowers to carry. But if she carries them, and a Muslim/gay person/African American wants to buy them, she cannot refuse to sell to a specific person based on religion/sexual orientation/ race... Etc.

  Is there some God given right to being able to buy flowers?  Or anything for that matter?  I have something to sell then i HAVE to sell it to whomever?  This is all getting a bit ridiculous.
  And, it may be a bad business decision but that is their problem.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 1:12:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I want my Muslim restaurant to serve up some bacon. Or else.

Someone else made the point of unclean foods, but it's completely different.

A restaurant doesn't have to serve something they don't have on their menu just because they ask.  Just as a florist doesn't have to make a balloon bouquet just because you ask.

What a restaurant can't do is refuse to cater a wedding (if that is part of their usual business model) because there was bacon served at the bachelor party.

[Shooby]

Yes they can.  They don't "Have" to cater anybody. 

[Shooby]

  So, if i am a contractor and the local Porn shop calls and wants to make rennovations, then i "HAVE" to service that?  No, i don't.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 6:45:05 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Yes they can.  They don't "Have" to cater anybody. 

That's where the second piece of the sentence matters.  We have all the clients we can manage right now, we have a previous commitment that day, etc are ways that they can get out of it.

it's giving the "because of your religion" explanation for the refused service that gets you in trouble.

[Shooby]

So, you have no right of your religion?

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 6:46:11 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  So, if i am a contractor and the local Porn shop calls and wants to make rennovations, then i "HAVE" to service that?  No, i don't.

Pornography sellers aren't a protected class.

[Shooby]

If it is legal for them to be in business then they are acting under Freedom of Speech and all that right?

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 6:49:02 GMT -5 Shooby said:

So, you have no right of your religion?

In this context - a secular business serving the public, no.

[Deleted]

I think a good gut check is "would a diner owner in the Jim Crow South have used this argument?"  If yes, then the argument won't hold up legally.

If you aren't actually performing religious rites, it is hard to make the case for a religious exception to the rules.



ETA: I should qualify this. I'm not suggesting that people who oppose same-sex marriage on religious grounds are the same as racists.  That's between you and your God to sort out, just as my opinion is based on my understanding of the teachings of my God.  It's just a similar legal scenario that the courts have already called BS on.

[Shooby]

  So, as a contractor, i can't refuse to build the Porno shop?

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 6:55:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  So, as a contractor, i can't refuse to build the Porno shop?

I already answered that.  Pornographers aren't a protected class.