Local florist refuses to service same-sex marriage

[hurley1980]

Apr 11, 2013 18:23:05 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Apr 11, 2013 18:19:29 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Would love to see how the posts would have read if this had been a business that refused service to someone wearing a crucifix.  Bet they would be much different.

If this had been a business run by a gay couple who discriminated against someone wearing a crucifix, I imagine your responses would be different as well.

My responses would be exactly the same.  Discrimination is discrimination, no matter who is on the giving or receiving end.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 18:21:29 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

"How many times should someone be slapped in the face before they strike back?  It wasn't gay people who threw the first punches.  History is replete with with examples of persecution of gay people."

History (and current events) is replete with examples of persecution of Christians too.  Christians have faced persecution and violence in various parts of the world since day 1 2000 years ago.  I don't think anyone has the market cornered on being persecuted.

You didn't answer my question about how many times should someone be slapped in the face before they strike back?

MY question was in reply to this statement of yours:

"The thing many militant pro gay marriage types don't seem to grasp is that they (in general) are often just as guilty as the opposing side of not respecting other people's beliefs and lifestyles as they claim the opposition is."


So I ask you again:  How many times should someone be slapped in the face before they strike back?

[EVT1]

Mine either.  Not into the discrimination thing.  Why would a gay person discriminate against a Christian anyway- are you saying they are at odds?  Can't be a gay Christian?  Funny I know several. 

[thyme4change]

a)  I think she is wrong
b)  I don't know if she broke the law or not
c)  I think she should have the right not to supply the wedding flowers
d)  I know other wedding services that won't work with you if you aren't a practicing {{whatever religion}}  But that is different, because they are protected by religion.  Weird.

[cereb]

Apr 11, 2013 17:20:35 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

"A bigot who brandishes a Bible is still a bigot."

For someone who champions the cause of equal treatment and justice, you don't seem all that concerned over religious persecution.  Seems kind of hyopocritical to me.

That isn't religious persecution. You get to practice YOUR religion as you wish. What you do not get to do is inflict it on others to the point that you are violating their rights. You don't have the right as a business person in the state of WA operating under a state business license to discriminate against anyone based on their race, sexual orientation or a number of other reasons no matter what you book or god has to say about it. Don't like it? don't go into the service business. Simple.

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2013 18:11:28 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

  

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do wish more pro gay marriage folks would be more careful not to become what they're arguing against and respect the lifestyles and beliefs of those who don't agree with them. 

[Shooby]

Sorry. There is no civil right to a florist. Vote with your dollars

[Deleted]

OK, I'm usually quick to defend religious freedom, but this florist was not "practicing religion" when she refused to take the couple's buisness.

At least in the State of Washington, what she did was as illegal as refusing to serve someone because they are female, a racial minority, disabled, etc etc.

Just to be clear so that there is no misundersanding, the protected classes are gender, race, and disability.  Men, Whites, and non-disabled are still part of the protected classes, and it's illegal to discriminate against them on that basis.  That's why affirmative action is generally illegal.

[kittensaver]

I would like to ask an honest, non-sarcastic question for the anti-gay marriage Christians out there to answer.

FWIW I'm a Christian too, and I'm confused by the assertion that giving gays the right to marry is to persecute Christians because of their beliefs. How is that?

No one is stopping you from believing what you believe. No one is stopping you from worshipping how you want to worship. You have religious freedom in this country. Why do you feel you are being persecuted? Allowing someone who is not like you to marry is persecution? There are people out there who are not like you (and frankly may not even like you) but who want the same access to civil rights that you have that only marriage provides. I can totally understand how that can be offensive to you religiously, because it somehow violates your beliefs. Fine and dandy, have that belief - no one is stopping you. What I don't understand is: Why do you think you have the right to impose that belief on someone else?

Snide and sarcastic people, please pass this post right by - - - -

Phoenix? Snowbird? Lone? Anybody else who want to engage in a respectful dialogue? 

[Deleted]

FWIW I'm a Christian too, and I'm confused by the assertion that giving gays the right to marry is to persecute Christians because of their beliefs. How is that?

I haven't read most of this thread, but do Christians really say that?  It makes no sense!  I'm against gay marriage, but not for religious reasons.  I have no business demanding such a law based on my religious beliefs, anyway.

[kittensaver]

Apr 11, 2013 19:21:19 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

FWIW I'm a Christian too, and I'm confused by the assertion that giving gays the right to marry is to persecute Christians because of their beliefs. How is that?

I haven't read most of this thread, but do Christians really say that?  It makes no sense!  I'm against gay marriage, but not for religious reasons.  I have no business demanding such a law based on my religious beliefs, anyway.

But it seems to me, at least where I sit at the moment, that this is exactly what is happening: (some) Christians are demanding that their religious beliefs be made into civil law. Actually, that exactly what they have right now in lots of places - as in, those State and places in this country where gays do not have the right to marry. Are they just mad that their preferred method of operation as the dominant culture is being chipped away? Something else?

[mmhmm]

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do wish more pro gay marriage folks would be more careful not to become what they're arguing against and respect the lifestyles and beliefs of those who don't agree with them.

And I wish more self-described Christians would be more careful not to become judge and jury over other peoples' lives.

[mmhmm]

Apr 11, 2013 19:13:22 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Sorry. There is no civil right to a florist. Vote with your dollars

Nobody said there was, shooby; however, I'd be willing to wager a very large sum of money the Attorney General of the state of Washington knows more about their laws and civil rights than you do.

[Deleted]

Heck, I know Christians who seem to think if people don't tell them Merry Christmas its persecution...

[chiver78]

Apr 11, 2013 19:13:22 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Sorry. There is no civil right to a florist. Vote with your dollars

I do, actually. but it seems this particular florist has run afoul with state laws.

[chiver78]

Apr 11, 2013 19:21:19 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

FWIW I'm a Christian too, and I'm confused by the assertion that giving gays the right to marry is to persecute Christians because of their beliefs. How is that?

I haven't read most of this thread, but do Christians really say that?  It makes no sense!  I'm against gay marriage, but not for religious reasons.  I have no business demanding such a law based on my religious beliefs, anyway.

not to hijack the thread, but can I ask what your reasons are? I haven't yet come across someone who is opposed to marriage equality that hasn't spouted a religious reason for that opinion.

please and thank you

[Shooby]

Let the market decide whether this is good or bsd practice.

[Deleted]

I'm against gay marriage, but not for religious reasons

Then why are you against it?

A florist is pissing off the gay community? Isn't that pretty much professional suicide?

[TonyTiger]

Apr 11, 2013 19:18:25 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

I would like to ask an honest, non-sarcastic question for the anti-gay marriage Christians out there to answer.

FWIW I'm a Christian too, and I'm confused by the assertion that giving gays the right to marry is to persecute Christians because of their beliefs. How is that?

No one is stopping you from believing what you believe. No one is stopping you from worshipping how you want to worship. You have religious freedom in this country. Why do you feel you are being persecuted? Allowing someone who is not like you to marry is persecution? There are people out there who are not like you (and frankly may not even like you) but who want the same access to civil rights that you have that only marriage provides. I can totally understand how that can be offensive to you religiously, because it somehow violates your beliefs. Fine and dandy, have that belief - no one is stopping you. What I don't understand is: Why do you think you have the right to impose that belief on someone else?

Snide and sarcastic people, please pass this post right by - - - -

Phoenix? Snowbird? Lone? Anybody else who want to engage in a respectful dialogue? 

I will take a crack at it, and then let the brickbats fly where they may...

The 'Abrahamic' religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are all historically and exceedingly hostile to homosexuality, perceiving the practice as unclean, unholy, and an aberration against the Deity, Nature and Man.

Those same religions historically perceive those who engage in such so-called unclean acts to be -themselves - unclean and unholy; contemptible in the eyes of the Deity and to be shunned insofar as practicable.

Many such 'Believers' quite possibly do not believe that they are being persecuted for their Beliefs, per se, but it is quite likely that many do, indeed, believe that they are being persecuted for practicing the age-old tradition of shunning (to socialize with, or to do business with) such so-called unclean and unholy transgressors against the Deity and Nature and Man.

In this case, perhaps this pick-and-choose Cafeteria Christian is willing to do business with such folk WHEN it involves events, etc., that are not directly related to such so-called unclean practices.

But such pick-and-choose types DO seem to have a problem with doing business with such folk when it DOES involve events, etc., that ARE directly so related (such as the marriage of two such folk).

These pick-and-choose types' particular flavor of religion may or may not call for censure or shunning or punishment of homosexual folk, but it almost certainly contains condemnations and prohibitions against such behaviors and folks logically and naturally (and correctly) assume a tradition of 'shunning' should be applied to such 'subjects'.

This nexus is where their right to practice the 'shunning' aspects of their Mainstream Beliefs collides with modern-day civil statute.

Increasingly, we are seeing larger elements of various belief-systems conceding the field and making allowances for homosexuality in their communities and even in their congregations.

But in many instances that may very well prove to be a 'path of least resistance' approach and an abandoning of aspects of their own Historical Sacred Writings in order to co-exist in an increasingly secular world.

We'll still be sorting this one out a thousand years from now.

I'm sure that I could have done a bit better job of explaining what I think is going on here, but it's probably not bad for a first pass. Somebody else can tweak it or throw rocks, as needed.

[Shooby]

Apr 11, 2013 19:40:46 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

I'm against gay marriage, but not for religious reasons

Then why are you against it?

A florist is pissing off the gay community? Isn't that pretty much professional suicide?

[b

Not necessarily. Maybe or maybe not depending where you live

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2013 19:40:24 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Let the market decide whether this is good or bsd practice.

 Have a great night! Shooby.

[Deleted]

So you are ok with businesses deciding not to sell to, I don't know, Asians? And just let the market weigh in?

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2013 19:42:25 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Apr 11, 2013 19:40:46 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Then why are you against it?

A florist is pissing off the gay community? Isn't that pretty much professional suicide?

[b

Not necessarily. Maybe or maybe not depending where you live

Well it is going to take a bite out of business. Gays and their friends are a good chunk of their clientelle.

[Shooby]

I t isn't my business so I don't care what they do. The local community can decide if they should stay in business.

[TonyTiger]

Apr 11, 2013 19:47:50 GMT -5 oped said:

So you are ok with businesses deciding not to sell to, I don't know, Asians? And just let the market weigh in?

Within the narrow context of a businessperson who allows their religious beliefs to influence the operation of the business in dealing with the public...

I don't know of any Major World Religion that says that it's a sin against the Deity and Nature and Man, to be Asian.

I smell Apples and Oranges here. 

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2013 19:47:50 GMT -5 oped said:

So you are ok with businesses deciding not to sell to, I don't know, Asians? And just let the market weigh in?

Are you a business owner by any chance. The order to make money in any business you have to cater to your clientele. Please don't call it's race issues.  

[chiver78]

Apr 11, 2013 19:51:51 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Apr 11, 2013 19:47:50 GMT -5 oped said:

So you are ok with businesses deciding not to sell to, I don't know, Asians? And just let the market weigh in?

Within the narrow context of a businessperson who allows their religious beliefs to influence the operation of the business in dealing with the public...

I don't know of any Major World Religion that says that it's a sin against the Deity and Nature and Man, to be Asian.

I smell Apples and Oranges here. 

only because you appear to consider that being gay is a choice, unlike being Asian. it's really not apples and oranges, and I'm calling BS on this.

[Deleted]

Are you suggesting religion is a reasonable justification for discrimination? I believe people used to use the bible to justify discriminating against black people.

[whoisjohngalt]

Apr 11, 2013 17:49:09 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 11, 2013 17:42:01 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I always find it very scary how people who preach tolerance and equality for all are usually only tolerant to their own views and want a very one-sided equality.

We already had this exact "debate" about Chick-fill-a.  It went nowhere. 

I gotta take issue with this. there was another post in here that I absolutely agreed with, sorry can't recall from a page later who said it. I don't see why you (collective) think I am intolerant of people's beliefs if they don't fall into step with mine because I expect business owners who serve the public as a whole to operate without infusing their business with religion of any kind. if a Muslim (pick a wedding vendor) refused to serve a straight ceremony because they planned to have a pig roast at the reception, what would y'all say? how about a Jewish (pick a wedding vendor) who couldn't deal with the bacon-wrapped scallops during cocktail hour?

I do think it's something that should be hashed out in the aftermath by customers, though. as in, I wouldn't use this woman's services any more than I would ever spend a dime at CfA. I could tell you about Curves, too, but that might open up a whole 'nother can of worms that we don't have time for here.

First, I don't think you are intolerant of people's beliefs, I think you are intolerant of their beliefs when (what you perceive) infringe on other people.    And it's that perception that I disagree with.

While you are standing up for gay rights, you are doing the exact opposite to CFA or this woman - that's what "I" (can't speak for others) have a problem with.

If we went with the "if you serve the public you have to be all inclusive) logic, we wouldn't have ANY business what-so-ever or we would have business of people who have no core beliefs.    As long as it's not govt-involved or subsidized, we should be allowed certain freedoms when it comes to our own businesses. 

And btw, you are one of the very few people who I don't agree with who I actually enjoy debating.   You don't bring emotions and are pretty fair in your debates.  I just don't agree with your stand. 

[kittensaver]

Okay, so you believe it's a sin against God. I respect your belief. I just don't understand why you think it's okay to impose that belief on someone else. Not being sarcastic, being honest.

Shunning may be acceptable in a religious environment, but it is in direct conflict to a civil environment that gives rights to all citizens. How do you reconcile the two? Particularly since we live in a civil environment that specifically states in its founding documents that no religion shall be allowed to run the State.