Local florist refuses to service same-sex marriage

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2013 19:56:32 GMT -5 oped said:

Are you suggesting religion is a reasonable justification for discrimination? I believe people used to use the bible to justify discriminating against black people.

I don't think what you just said it's true!
 Give  me the fact.

[cereb]

"If we went with the "if you serve the public you have to be all inclusive) logic, we wouldn't have ANY business what-so-ever or we would have business of people who have no core beliefs.    As long as it's not govt-involved or subsidized, we should be allowed certain freedoms when it comes to our own businesses."

Two words:


                              Whites only 

[cereb]

4 Words:


IRISH NEED NOT APPLY

[hurley1980]

Apr 11, 2013 19:51:55 GMT -5 @snowbird said:

Apr 11, 2013 19:47:50 GMT -5 oped said:

So you are ok with businesses deciding not to sell to, I don't know, Asians? And just let the market weigh in?

Are you a business owner by any chance. The order to make money in any business you have to cater to your clientele. Please don't call it's race issues.  

This WAS her clientele, for 10 friggin years!  She is clearly not catering to them. 

[kittensaver]

"I think you are intolerant of their beliefs when (what you perceive) infringe on other people."

===================================

And why should religious beliefs be allowed to infringe on others who don't believe like you? Again (at least in my world) your rights end where your religious fist meets my civil nose. I acknowledge that this is my world view, and I also acknowledge that I'm bewildered as to why someone wants to use a religious tenant to deny rights to others  .

I could understand being upset if the infringement harmed you in some way (as in, gays are harmed because they are being denied rights that only the institution of marriage can give them), but how as a Christian are you being harmed? Maybe your cherished beliefs are being challenged, but how are you harmed? 

[TonyTiger]

Apr 11, 2013 19:54:18 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 11, 2013 19:51:51 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Within the narrow context of a businessperson who allows their religious beliefs to influence the operation of the business in dealing with the public...

I don't know of any Major World Religion that says that it's a sin against the Deity and Nature and Man, to be Asian.

I smell Apples and Oranges here. 

only because you appear to consider that being gay is a choice, unlike being Asian. it's really not apples and oranges, and I'm calling BS on this.

You are coming at this from the angle of the Shunned.

I was coming at this from the angle of the Shunner.

In order to explain WHY the Shunners believe that they are being persecuted.

I was not attempting to pass judgment upon the merits of either side, in that narrow context.

I was merely explaining the WHY behind the shunning.

ETA: Oh, and I'm sticking with my Apples and Oranges remark... the original observation (presence or absence of scriptural declarations) is accurate.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 19:21:19 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

FWIW I'm a Christian too, and I'm confused by the assertion that giving gays the right to marry is to persecute Christians because of their beliefs. How is that?

I haven't read most of this thread, but do Christians really say that?  It makes no sense!  I'm against gay marriage, but not for religious reasons.  I have no business demanding such a law based on my religious beliefs, anyway.

IB-from December, 2012.



www.gallup.com/poll/159089/religion-major-factor-americans-opposed-sex-marriage.aspx

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2013 20:06:07 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

Apr 11, 2013 19:51:55 GMT -5 @snowbird said:

Are you a business owner by any chance. The order to make money in any business you have to cater to your clientele. Please don't call it's race issues.  

This WAS her clientele, for 10 friggin years!  She is clearly not catering to them. 

Then, only time will tell. Isn't it?

[cereb]

“Your religious beliefs are your business. They are not and should not be the basis for law. If you use them as justification to discriminate against others, don’t be upset when others decide you’re an asshole.”
― Jim C. Hines

[Deleted]

not to hijack the thread, but can I ask what your reasons are?

In short, because it serves no purpose.  That said, I'm not going to be all that outraged when it becomes legal.  And I do support same-sex couples having certain key rights and priviledges that married people enjoy.  I don't think gay marriage serves a purpose, but I also don't think they need to be denied equal rights, either.

From a purely civil standpoint, marriage is an institution that encourages reproduction, nuclear families, etc.  Things that are beneficial to a healthy society.  On the flip side, I also recognize that Jimmy having two daddies is a heck of a lot better than the prevalence of single moms and deadbeat dads our society is shifting towards.

So to be honest, I'm slightly conflicted in my opinion.

[hurley1980]

Apr 11, 2013 20:06:18 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

but how are you harmed? 

  Someone please PLEASE PLEASE answer this! 

[Deleted]

IB-from December, 2012.

But what % of the 47% think that legalizing gay marriage would amount to persecuting Christians?  I don't even understand the logic.

[deziloooooo]

Apr 11, 2013 15:22:09 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

RICHLAND, Wash. -- A business in Richland has some residents claiming discrimination, while others say it's a business owners' right of refusal. Arlene's Flower Shop is now on the defense after the owner refused to supply flowers for a same-sex wedding.

“He said he decided to get married, and before he got through I grabbed his hand and said, ‘I am sorry. I can't do your wedding because of my relationship with Jesus Christ,’" said Barronelle Stutzman, the owner of Arlene’s Flower Shop. With 37 years in the flower business, Barronelle Stutzman has made bouquets for hundreds of weddings, but has only ever turned down one.

“We hugged each other and he left, and I assumed that was the end of the story,” she said. But, in a twist that Stutzman never saw coming, that story was only the beginning. "It hit Facebook and it exploded," she said.


www.keprtv.com/news/local/Florist-refuses-to-service-same-sex-marriage-195500961.html?tab=video&c=y

Thoughts?  It seems that an awful lot of people support her breaking the law the way she did.  And she is breaking the law, since sexual orientation is a protected class in WA state.

While I don't understand the hug, personally if I was involved, I would be glad the shop owner was up front with her feelings...I would hate to support a business and a owner of a business with my hard earned $ who was so anti what to me would be one of the most important days in my life...It's not like she is the only florist in town I am sure and what her relationship with "Jesus " has to do with it..also don't understand , the man has been dead over 2000 years before this incident and in his teachings and supposedly thoughts I am not sure he mentioned  his personal feelings on gays , one way or another..{Possible some one more familer with his supposed feelings might correct me...his own feelings, not the feelings of others written hundred of years after his death by third and forth and beyond partys'....their own feelings and beliefs entering into the equation not wanted...}

[TonyTiger]

Apr 11, 2013 20:13:11 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

IB-from December, 2012.

But what % of the 47% think that legalizing gay marriage would amount to persecuting Christians?  I don't even understand the logic.

Are you sure that that 47% believe that legalizing gay marriage would amount to persecution of their belief-compatriots, or simply 47% who believe that the practice and behavior and lifestyle are wrong?

[mmhmm]

Apr 11, 2013 19:40:24 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Let the market decide whether this is good or bsd practice.

It appears the state of Washington has decided to let the law make that decision.  Their choice trumps yours.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 20:00:45 GMT -5 @snowbird said:

Apr 11, 2013 19:56:32 GMT -5 oped said:

Are you suggesting religion is a reasonable justification for discrimination? I believe people used to use the bible to justify discriminating against black people.

I don't think what you just said it's true!
 Give  me the fact.

Snowbird-I believe it was you who replied to this quote last week when I posted it. You said you were a Baptist and your husband was Roman Catholic.

In 1995, the (Southern Baptist) Convention voted to adopt a resolution renouncing its racist roots and apologizing for its past defense of slavery, segregation, and white supremacism. [42][43] This marked the denomination's first formal acknowledgment that racism had a profound role in its early and modern history. The convention has recognized that the demographics of the United States were changing and has made an effort to recruit new members among minority populations.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention

[TonyTiger]

Apr 11, 2013 20:15:13 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Apr 11, 2013 15:22:09 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

RICHLAND, Wash. -- A business in Richland has some residents claiming discrimination, while others say it's a business owners' right of refusal. Arlene's Flower Shop is now on the defense after the owner refused to supply flowers for a same-sex wedding.

“He said he decided to get married, and before he got through I grabbed his hand and said, ‘I am sorry. I can't do your wedding because of my relationship with Jesus Christ,’" said Barronelle Stutzman, the owner of Arlene’s Flower Shop. With 37 years in the flower business, Barronelle Stutzman has made bouquets for hundreds of weddings, but has only ever turned down one.

“We hugged each other and he left, and I assumed that was the end of the story,” she said. But, in a twist that Stutzman never saw coming, that story was only the beginning. "It hit Facebook and it exploded," she said.


www.keprtv.com/news/local/Florist-refuses-to-service-same-sex-marriage-195500961.html?tab=video&c=y

Thoughts?  It seems that an awful lot of people support her breaking the law the way she did.  And she is breaking the law, since sexual orientation is a protected class in WA state.

While I don't understand the hug, personally if I was involved, I would be glad the shop owner was up front with her feelings...I would hate to support a business and a owner of a business with my hard earned $ who was so anti what to me would be one of the most important days in my life...It's not like she is the only florist in town I am sure and what her relationship with "Jesus " has to do with it..also don't understand , the man has been dead over 2000 years before this incident and in his teachings and supposedly thoughts I am not sure he mentioned  his personal feelings on gays , one way or another..{Possible some one more familer with his supposed feelings might correct me...his own feelings, not the feelings of others written hundred of years after his death by third and forth and beyond partys'....their own feelings and beliefs entering into the equation not wanted...}

As I understand it, Christianity upholds and honors as valid, any aspect of the OLD Testament which does not conflict with the NEW - citing their Founder's (and his immediate followers and successors) supposed reverence for the Old Book, insofar as it did not conflict with his own overriding teachings.

With that in mind, given that the NEW Book is (entirely?) silent with respect to homosexuality, Christianity has perceived that the OLD Book injunctions against such behaviors remain operative; although that stance has softened in recent centuries so as not to trigger a Capital (Death Penalty) Trial for such transgressions.

[mmhmm]

Apr 11, 2013 19:50:30 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I t isn't my business so I don't care what they do. The local community can decide if they should stay in business.

No.  The law is going to make that decision.

[kittensaver]

Apr 11, 2013 20:16:01 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Apr 11, 2013 20:13:11 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

But what % of the 47% think that legalizing gay marriage would amount to persecuting Christians?  I don't even understand the logic.

Are you sure that that 47% believe that legalizing gay marriage would amount to persecution of their belief-compatriots, or simply 47% who believe that the practice and behavior and lifestyle are wrong?

At least one person on this thread stated that when us "pro-gay marriage folks" "disrespect" their religious beliefs it is because we are persecuting them. How can you be persecuted/harmed for a belief when nothing bad happens to you when you have that belief?

Again I ask the question: how are Christians harmed by gay marriage? Can anyone give me a straight answer?

[Deleted]

In the past, certain cults and even some orthodox Christian groups have held to the belief that the skin color of black people was due to a curse on Ham and his descendents. Unfortunately, this false teaching has been used to justify racial discrimination and even slavery.

One group said, "We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later Ham) were cursed with what we call Negroid racial characteristics."{2} Another group argued that "The curse which Noah pronounced upon Canaan was the origin of the black race."{3}

...


Racism
A long history of racism, particularly in the U.S., has made some people believe there is something immoral about dating and marrying outside one's own race. In fact, interracial marriage was illegal in some states until 1967, when those laws were declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court.

A number of attempts were made to use the Bible to justify those bans on interracial marriage. Vague assertions were made that God intended for the races to remain separate. Some verses (Exodus 34:10-16, 2 Corinthians 6:14, etc.) were quoted in part or otherwise out of context in an attempt to show that God opposed interracial marriage.

...

thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/bible_and_segregation

Just a few to get you started... Bible was long used to support slavery and segregation...

[thyme4change]

if a Muslim (pick a wedding vendor) refused to serve a straight ceremony because they planned to have a pig roast at the reception, what would y'all say? how about a Jewish (pick a wedding vendor) who couldn't deal with the bacon-wrapped scallops during cocktail hour?

I'd be fine with that.  And I'd get a different vendor.  I'm very libertarian in these types of issues.  Let business people cut off their own feet.  That's okay with me.  I would choose a different establishment if it had a "whites only" sign, even though I'm the poster child for being white.  I can't even say one of those stupid "Some of my best friends are non-white."  I'm sure I have some ethnic friend out there - but mostly, we are all white.  Like, if we collectively mooned you, you might go blind-white.  But it is not okay with me to do that.  Do we still need the law and lawsuits?  I guess as a person who lives off a lawyer's salary - I should encourage it.  But the market might solve this for us if we let it go.[/span]

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 20:13:11 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

IB-from December, 2012.

But what % of the 47% think that legalizing gay marriage would amount to persecuting Christians?  I don't even understand the logic.

IB-you have to ask someone who says it's against their religion and feels threatened/jammed down their throats by it. That's something I don't understand. How they are harmed and their persecution complex.

[thyme4change]

Apr 11, 2013 20:16:31 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Apr 11, 2013 19:40:24 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Let the market decide whether this is good or bsd practice.

It appears the state of Washington has decided to let the law make that decision.  Their choice trumps yours.

Are we debating if she broke the law, or are we debating if we should have a law that she broke?  They are two different things.  There are a lot of laws I don't agree with, but I can see plainly if someone broke that law.  I don't know the exact law they say she broke.  

[Deleted]

Thank you. Tenn. For your detail information.

I just want to lets you know that I got baptized in middle of 1980 in heartland of US.
I will assure you,  I never experienced it  from my church folks that I was unwelcomed because of my skin color. By the way, from any church in fact.

Good night, Tenn.

[hurley1980]

Thyme -

This is from the LA times article:

The lawsuit seeks $2,000 in fines for each violation and an injunction requiring Arlene’s Flowers to comply with the state’s consumer protection laws, which prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.


Kittensaver -

I don't think anyone is going to answer your question, which sucks, cause I really wanna know!

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 20:24:29 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Apr 11, 2013 20:16:31 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

It appears the state of Washington has decided to let the law make that decision.  Their choice trumps yours.

Are we debating if she broke the law, or are we debating if we should have a law that she broke?  They are two different things.  There are a lot of laws I don't agree with, but I can see plainly if someone broke that law.  I don't know the exact law they say she broke.  

Thyme

"FERGUSON: As (Washington state) Attorney General, it is my job to enforce the laws of the state of Washington. Under the Consumer Protection Act, it is unlawful to discriminate against customers based on sexual orientation. If a business provides a product or service to opposite-sex couples for their weddings, then it must provide same sex couples the same product or service."

thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/04/10/1844611/washington-attorney-general-sues-florist-for-anti-gay-discrimination/?mobile=wt[/ur]

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 20:29:02 GMT -5 @snowbird said:

Thank you. Tenn. For your detail information.

I just want to lets you know that I got baptized in middle of 1980 in heartland of US.
I will assure you,  I never experienced it  from my church folks that I was unwelcomed because of my skin color. By the way, from any church in fact.

Good night, Tenn.

Snowbird-it wasn't everywhere. I'm glad you had a go experience.

Night.

[thyme4change]

I wonder if she can claim that she didn't refuse to serve HIM based on sexual orientation - which she did not, as he had been a customer many times, but she only refused this one service, based on her disagreement with that particular event.  There might be a legal difference between not serving gays, and not serving a gay wedding.  (And that is why people think lawyers are poopy-heads.)

[mmhmm]

Apr 11, 2013 20:00:45 GMT -5 @snowbird said:

Apr 11, 2013 19:56:32 GMT -5 oped said:

Are you suggesting religion is a reasonable justification for discrimination? I believe people used to use the bible to justify discriminating against black people.

I don't think what you just said it's true!
 Give  me the fact.

Yes, snowbird, it is true.  At one time, black people were thought to be cursed ... the Curse of Ham.  It was biblical, Noah having laid the curse on his grandson Canaan (son of Ham).  Many people did not believe black people were really fully human.

[cereb]

"Kittensaver -

I don't think anyone is going to answer your question, which sucks, cause I really wanna know!"

They can't answer unless they are willing to be honest about it. They are not harmed in any way at all. Offended? Perhaps. Harmed? No.