Local florist refuses to service same-sex marriage

[whoisjohngalt]

I always find it very scary how people who preach tolerance and equality for all are usually only tolerant to their own views and want a very one-sided equality.

We already had this exact "debate" about Chick-fill-a.  It went nowhere. 

[Phoenix84]

"You may have your religious beliefs all you want - I have no issue with that. You can practice any form of discrimination you choose in a private setting (e.g., among your believers). Go ahead and shun any gay person or any other kind of person you want within the confinds of your church."

Again, religion isn't just something you "practice" it's part of who and what you are.  Religion isn't just going to church on Sunday and then do whatever the thell you want the other 6 days of the week.  Religion is something you incooperate into your life and your decision making processes.  To imply otherwise is like saying someone is only Gay when engaging in certain actions at certain times.  Is the person Gay when they are "practicing", or is being Gay part of what makes them them? 

Most people (including me) think it's the latter, so why can't you understand that religion in one's life is not just something you show up and do for a hour or two on Sunday and then drop? 

For the record, as I said in the beginning, I'm perfectly fine if her business goes under because of negative publicity over this.  If people choose not to patronize her flower store because of her attitude towards gay people, more power to them. 

[kittensaver]

Her rights were trampled in that she was not allowed to practice her religion as she wanted, in her own business no less.

=========================

There is nothing in her religious texts that force her to do what she did as a condition of practicing that religion, belonging to that religion or being a member of it in good standing.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 17:38:38 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 11, 2013 16:21:21 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I do think businesses that have anything to do with weddings, birthday parties and other events that have floral arrangements should put ads in their local phone book along with signs on their storefront windows they don't cater gay events.  Be up front with it.


 

but then they might have to face the reality that there are plenty of straight couples that wouldn't seek their services on principle, too. I know I wouldn't.

I am surprised there is actually a law in WA that she broke. I haven't followed the link yet, but I plan to.

I believe California has had a denial of services law (sexual orientation) for some time now.

[hurley1980]

Apr 11, 2013 17:38:14 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Apr 11, 2013 17:34:30 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

Thats the thing though Lone, in the State of Washington she does NOT have the right to do what she did.  She discriminated based on sexual orientation which is against the law in WA.  Them getting married does not stop her from practicing her religion, so the whole freedom of religion aspect is completely irrelevant here.  Her rights are not trampled by providing the same service she has provided to them for a decade.  Thats all she would be doing, making flower arrangements.  She would not be at the wedding or forced to view anything, so lets not all act like this is a horrible act of religious persecution in the works.

Her rights were trampled in that she was not allowed to practice her religion as she wanted, in her own business no less. I agree, in that it's not an act of horrid persecution. It's a line in the sand and the courts will have to decide.

Show me where in the bible it says it is against Christianity's rules to provide flowers to a gay couple for their wedding?  She believes it is against Christianity to BE gay.  Providing them flowers, which she has done for the last 10 years will not MAKE her gay.  It is just a service that she is refusing because she wants to be the moral police.

Does she also refuse to sell flowers to all the other sinners too?  I doubt it!

[whoisjohngalt]

I wish we were prosecuting illegal immigrants as fiercely  we want to prosecute someone following their religious beliefs.

We have so many protected classes now-days, that the only one left un-protected is our freedom. 

[chiver78]

Apr 11, 2013 17:42:01 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I always find it very scary how people who preach tolerance and equality for all are usually only tolerant to their own views and want a very one-sided equality.

We already had this exact "debate" about Chick-fill-a.  It went nowhere. 

I gotta take issue with this. there was another post in here that I absolutely agreed with, sorry can't recall from a page later who said it. I don't see why you (collective) think I am intolerant of people's beliefs if they don't fall into step with mine because I expect business owners who serve the public as a whole to operate without infusing their business with religion of any kind. if a Muslim (pick a wedding vendor) refused to serve a straight ceremony because they planned to have a pig roast at the reception, what would y'all say? how about a Jewish (pick a wedding vendor) who couldn't deal with the bacon-wrapped scallops during cocktail hour?

I do think it's something that should be hashed out in the aftermath by customers, though. as in, I wouldn't use this woman's services any more than I would ever spend a dime at CfA. I could tell you about Curves, too, but that might open up a whole 'nother can of worms that we don't have time for here.

[Deleted]

 The florist feels that, despite the current business climate, she can afford to discriminate in servicing her clientele.
 There may be a ripple effect arising from this initiative... alienating potential customers could very well lead to a reduction in clientele- that means decreased business, which could lead to eventual bankruptcy.
 And then some clowns will go on internet message boards and endeavor to claim that the collapse of her business is directly as a result of "Obommer" and "Obommercare".
 How tritely predictable the whole farce is.

[Deleted]

Maybe someone already wondered and commented about the following already.. If so, disregard.  

Were the florists' asked to supply the flowers to create bouquets and do setup at the marriage site? I am not understanding why the business would not sell their wares, if all of the above is not the case.   

I don't agree with same-sex or same sex marriage and a whole lot of other things in life for that matter. That is my prerogative, but will sell my wares to whomever wants to purchase them. Now, what I would not do is, engage myself in whatever some of my purchaser's do with what they've bought from me. If I owned a store and sold condoms for instance. They are legal items, right? So are flowers. I am not going to ask neither male nor female how they intend to use them, whether they are married or not.

I won't ask and please don't tell me.   I am sure there must be a lot of things in the lives of others who buy flowers from these florist's they absolutely don't agree with, you know? Some of the conversations overheard while building a floral arrangement on site, or in any servicing people business, will probably make theirs, yours and my skin crawl, but do we have the right to not service the folks in our community we don't agree with? 

[Phoenix84]

Kittensaver, we can agree to disagree.  But I do wish we could do so with mutual respect, and not throw around terms like bigot.  Name calling is unbecoming and weaken's one's position.   

Calling people racist or bigoted just shuts down any meaningful and mutually respectful discussion. 

[kittensaver]

". . . . as fiercely we want to prosecute someone following their religious beliefs."

==============================

No one wants to persecute you ("the big you") for your religious beliefs. You are perfectly entitled to have them. And you are perfectly entitled to impose them on your community of believers.

You ("the big you") just don't have the right to come into a civil arena and impose your religious beliefs on those who do not act or believe like you do. At least in this country, anyway. Stopping you from doing that is not religous persecution. It's protecting the CIVIL rights of all members of society. Your rights end where your religious fist meets my civil nose begins.

Church and State, people, Church and State.

[kittensaver]

Apr 11, 2013 17:57:55 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Kittensaver, we can agree to disagree.  But I do wish we could do so with mutual respect, and not throw around terms like bigot.  Name calling is unbecoming and weaken's one's position.   

Calling people racist or bigoted just shuts down any meaningful and mutually respectful discussion. 

I agree, Phoenix, and thank you for that reminder!

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 17:43:11 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 11, 2013 17:38:38 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

but then they might have to face the reality that there are plenty of straight couples that wouldn't seek their services on principle, too. I know I wouldn't.

I am surprised there is actually a law in WA that she broke. I haven't followed the link yet, but I plan to.

I believe California has had a denial of services law (sexual orientation) for some time now.

Chiver-here you go:

Unruh Civil Rights Act

The Unruh Civil Rights Act is a piece of California legislation that specifically outlaws discrimination based on sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, marital status, or sexual orientation.^[1][2][3] This law applies to all businesses such as hotels and motels, restaurants, theaters, hospitals, barber and beauty shops, housing accommodations, and retail establishments.^[4] The law was enacted in 1959 and was named for its author, Jesse M. Unruh. The Unruh Civil Rights Act is codified as California Civil Code section 51.<sup>[5]

Unruh Civil Rights Act</sup>

[Phoenix84]

"I agree, Phoenix, and thank you for that reminder!"

No problem

[Deleted]

Hmmmm.. Interesting law.

Too bad law can't change the heart and mind though.. 

[Shooby]

It is a private business. If they don't like it find another florist.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 18:08:06 GMT -5 Shooby said:

It is a private business. If they don't like it find another florist.

Does the florist serve the public?  Washington state law says all businesses, be they private or public, must serve all of the public.  That is why Washington state is suing the florist.

[Phoenix84]

I guess my final point on this subject will have to be the great irony I perceive in the whole gay/christian debate.

The thing many militant pro gay marriage types don't seem to grasp is that they (in general) are often just as guilty as the opposing side of not respecting other people's beliefs and lifestyles as they claim the opposition is.  They claim that others shouldn't impose their beliefs on society as a whole then turn around and brow beat those who won't drink the kool aide that gay marriage is not okay and practice as such.  All the while preeching tolerance and acceptance, they then shame and belittle those who disagree with them by calling them names and dismissing their viewpoints out of hand. 

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do wish more pro gay marriage folks would be more careful not to become what they're arguing against and respect the lifestyles and beliefs of those who don't agree with them. 

[kittensaver]

Apr 11, 2013 18:07:30 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

Hmmmm.. Interesting law.

Too bad law can't change the heart and mind though.. 

Laws are not intended to change hearts and minds. They are only intended to regulate behavior so that no one gets harmed. Christians are not harmed when a gay couple marries. Horrified? Maybe. Offended? Probably. Harmed in some way? Not so much . . .

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 18:11:28 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I guess my final point on this subject will have to be the great irony I perceive in the whole gay/christian debate.

The thing many militant pro gay marriage types don't seem to grasp is that they (in general) are often just as guilty as the opposing side of not respecting other people's beliefs and lifestyles as they claim the opposition is.  They claim that others shouldn't impose their beliefs on society as a whole then turn around and brow beat those who won't drink the kool aide that gay marriage is not okay and practice as such.  All the while preeching tolerance and acceptance, they then shame and belittle those who disagree with them by calling them names and dismissing their viewpoints out of hand. 

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do wish more pro gay marriage folks would be more careful not to become what they're arguing against and respect the lifestyles and beliefs of those who don't agree with them. 

How many times should someone be slapped in the face before they strike back?  It wasn't gay people who threw the first punches.  History is replete with with examples of persecution of gay people.

[EVT1]

Would love to see how the posts would have read if this had been a business that refused service to someone wearing a crucifix.  Bet they would be much different.

[kittensaver]

Apr 11, 2013 18:19:29 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Would love to see how the posts would have read if this had been a business that refused service to someone wearing a crucifix.  Bet they would be much different.

Word.

[Phoenix84]

"How many times should someone be slapped in the face before they strike back?  It wasn't gay people who threw the first punches.  History is replete with with examples of persecution of gay people."

History (and current events) is replete with examples of persecution of Christians too.  Christians have faced persecution and violence in various parts of the world since day 1 2000 years ago.  I don't think anyone has the market cornered on being persecuted.

[Phoenix84]

Apr 11, 2013 18:19:29 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Would love to see how the posts would have read if this had been a business that refused service to someone wearing a crucifix.  Bet they would be much different.

If this had been a business run by a gay couple who discriminated against someone wearing a crucifix, I imagine your responses would be different as well.

[Deleted]

 Persecutors crying about being victimized... have little sense of Irony OR Reality.
 But... don't doubt them... ever.

[mmhmm]

Apr 11, 2013 18:08:06 GMT -5 Shooby said:

It is a private business. If they don't like it find another florist.

It's the law.  If she doesn't like it, move or find something else to do.

[hurley1980]

Apr 11, 2013 18:19:29 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Would love to see how the posts would have read if this had been a business that refused service to someone wearing a crucifix.  Bet they would be much different.

[TonyTiger]

Well, that's what the florist gets, for being honest, in our present-day insane legal setting, where practicing various tenets of your thousands-of-years-old mainstream religious perspective on homosexuality results in civil rights charges and accusations of bigotry in the public square. Our ancestors of a hundred years ago are looking down at us from on high and laughing their asses off at their screwed-up-in-the-head PC multi-culti descendants... 

[kittensaver]

Apr 11, 2013 18:23:05 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Apr 11, 2013 18:19:29 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Would love to see how the posts would have read if this had been a business that refused service to someone wearing a crucifix.  Bet they would be much different.

If this had been a business run by a gay couple who discriminated against someone wearing a crucifix, I imagine your responses would be different as well.

The players change, but the legal principle remains the same.

[mmhmm]

Apr 11, 2013 18:23:05 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Apr 11, 2013 18:19:29 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Would love to see how the posts would have read if this had been a business that refused service to someone wearing a crucifix.  Bet they would be much different.

If this had been a business run by a gay couple who discriminated against someone wearing a crucifix, I imagine your responses would be different as well.

I can assure you, mine would not.