Local florist refuses to service same-sex marriage

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 10:20:24 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

again.....i will never tell someone who didnt get a job, why i chose someone else

all it does is open up a can of worms

and nothing says i have to tell them anything....

and no replies to # 268

anyone ever been to a wedding where the florist was never seen, and just sent a truck with the flowers?

Trucks, let alone florist trucks, don't drive themselves. The florist store employee delivers the flowers.

[kittensaver]

I'm joining Cereb - - - outta here.

Goat is too high on the food chain.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 10:35:17 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:33:33 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Government is force.  You need to follow the logic of this- she says NO.  The state says you WILL. She still says NO- what happens next?  The state says FINE.  She still says NO.  What now?  The only thing the government ultimately has is guns.  The state is a gun.

No. sorry.

Explain how government is not ultimately force.  Are they asking her nicely? Or do they mean to compel her to comply with their orders or be deprived of her private property, or her personal freedom if she does not comply?

If you do not understand that government is force, then you don't understand the first principle of government to begin with.  No one seriously debates whether or not government is force.  Political debates center on how the force will be applied.  Conservatives believe government force exists to protect natural rights of individuals- to prevent one individual from literally harming another by taking of their life, limb, or private property; and to punish the guilty party if prevention fails.  Liberals like you believe that force is to be used in order to reshape society, to instruct, to educate, to compel conformity with certain values you hold dear.

[thyme4change]

Apr 12, 2013 10:32:12 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:29:36 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

So, they break one law to avoid breaking another?  Fantastic.  

No one said that.  I know this might come as a great shock to you- but you don't NEED a license in many places to do business.  Even in the People's Republic of Illinois, you can start a lot of service businesses on the spot, out of your house and the only requirement is to report the income.

So, if you don't have a license - are you allowed to discriminate?  I would think the laws would apply if you are running a legal business.  

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 10:36:15 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:20:24 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

again.....i will never tell someone who didnt get a job, why i chose someone else

all it does is open up a can of worms

and nothing says i have to tell them anything....

and no replies to # 268

anyone ever been to a wedding where the florist was never seen, and just sent a truck with the flowers?

Trucks, let alone florist trucks, don't drive themselves. The florist store employee delivers the flowers.

They can find someone else to do that.  You can be gay, you can buy flowers, but you can't ask me to come and help with your gay wedding.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2013 19:21:19 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

FWIW I'm a Christian too, and I'm confused by the assertion that giving gays the right to marry is to persecute Christians because of their beliefs. How is that?

I haven't read most of this thread, but do Christians really say that?  It makes no sense!  I'm against gay marriage, but not for religious reasons.  I have no business demanding such a law based on my religious beliefs, anyway.

Investorbob-found one.

Apr 12, 2013 10:18:35 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

The point I would make is that for a truly all-inclusive, live and let live society to thrive we cannot have government running around with guns forcing people to violate their consciences. She has the right to refuse service to anyone. She doesn't even have to state why. If she was more clever, she would have asked for the date and said she was booked no matter what date(s) they gave her. My guess is that these are gay activists who are deliberately pushing the issue because what they want is the government to put a gun to the heads of anyone who objects to their choice of lifestyle and force them to accept it as normal, as morally acceptable. Some of us don't think it is. And some of us have a duty to stand our ground because of our faith. It might be, however, that because the state is so corrupt and the Constitution so rarely upheld- that she is forced out of business for refusing to participate in an event that violates her conscience. So be it. It is sad, it is unjust, but so is being fed to the lions, or dipped in oil and used to light gardens. Christians have endured worse in history, and open persecution is in its infancy now in the United States-- but it is growing, and will be full bloom soon.

You liberals will have it your way. We cannot stop you. You will keep defeating conservatives in election after election. You will continue to wear us out, and to persecute us. And like little children who throw a temper tantrum and get your way- you will see that you don't like the consequences of destroying what we have gifted you. You didn't build this, you didn't create it, you don't know how we got it- and you don't possess the tools to keep it. You just look at it like the prodigal looked at his share of the inheritance- like you're entitled to it, you know better what to do with it, and you all think you're soooooo smart.

You'll come running home one day covered in pig shit and I just want you to know: we will be gracious to you. We will clean you up, celebrate your home coming, and get on with the feast. I won't even say, "You're welcome"

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Truthfully, if we were to return government to its proper role, the market would sort out the whole discrimination thing on its own. We don't have a Constitution that guarantees that you won't be discriminated against in private employer hiring, or that you cannot be refused service for literally any reason. That's the truth of it.

I have to be honest with you here- money is green. If I was a florist, and I got this order- I'd just do it and cash the damn check. My sale of products and services to someone isn't an endorsement of what they do with it.

Folks answer to God, not me.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 10:35:22 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:33:15 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Utter rubbish as usual.

Paul-you even state she sells and hires gays. The woman has been selling flowers to these two guys for ten years. Suddenly they are activists?

Right.  She's not discriminating against them at all based on their sexual orientation- I already made that point.  They want to force the normalization of gay marriage on her, and she's not down with that.  She did NOT refuse to sell them flowers.  They may buy all the flowers they like.

She refused to sell the men flowers for their wedding.

[thyme4change]

Folks answer to God, not me.

That is the most Christian thing I have ever heard you say.[/span]

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 10:36:15 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:20:24 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

again.....i will never tell someone who didnt get a job, why i chose someone else

all it does is open up a can of worms

and nothing says i have to tell them anything....

and no replies to # 268

anyone ever been to a wedding where the florist was never seen, and just sent a truck with the flowers?

Trucks, let alone florist trucks, don't drive themselves. The florist store employee delivers the flowers.

ok

let me spell out my point

ever seen a big order like a wedding, delivered by a deliveryman, not the florist?

sarcasm aside....someone said they were not forcing her to "participate" in their wedding

but if she accepts the "order", she knows she needs to be there to make sure it gets done right

but maybe that is the answer....send the freaking flowers by a truck, and have the delivery guy just drop them off

no arrangements...no adjustments....just here!

it will cause the same amount of grief that this is causing now....and then the "gay weddings" wont need her services anytime after that

send clashing colors...bad arrangements....yeah that should send the "appropriate" message

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 10:20:24 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

again.....i will never tell someone who didnt get a job, why i chose someone else

all it does is open up a can of worms

and nothing says i have to tell them anything....

and no replies to # 268

anyone ever been to a wedding where the florist was never seen, and just sent a truck with the flowers?

Yes.  In every wedding I have ever attended as a guest, I have had zero knowledge of or interaction with the florist.

In every wedding I have ever attended as a member of the wedding party, someone would turn up in the dressing area with a box of bouquets and corsages and things.  It's been the mother of the groom, the wedding planner, a staff member at the church... I don't think I have ever seen the floral delivery person at the ceremony venue.

In my experience, the majority of the flowers have been at the reception venue, so the florist might show up there to set the centerpieces out directly.  I think I've seen the flowers dropped off at the ceremony by the florist and picked up by some random family member.

I'm not saying that is how it works in all cases - chiver and thyme spoke of a more hands on service, but that is definitely not the only way it can be done.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 10:52:09 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:36:15 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Trucks, let alone florist trucks, don't drive themselves. The florist store employee delivers the flowers.

ok

let me spell out my point

ever seen a big order like a wedding, delivered by a deliveryman, not the florist?

sarcasm aside....someone said they were not forcing her to "participate" in their wedding

but if she accepts the "order", she knows she needs to be there to make sure it gets done right

but maybe that is the answer....send the freaking flowers by a truck, and have the delivery guy just drop them off

no arrangements...no adjustments....just here!

it will cause the same amount of grief that this is causing now....and then the "gay weddings" wont need her services anytime after that

send clashing colors...bad arrangements....yeah that should send the "appropriate" message

What does the florist do when she has two wedding the same day and roughly the same time I'd different parts of town? She sends another employee with instructions.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 10:32:06 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Last time I checked, no one was forcing this woman at gunpoint. Where does holding guns to people's heads come in to this situation?

Thank you! The violent analogies were starting to freak me out.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 10:54:32 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:20:24 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

again.....i will never tell someone who didnt get a job, why i chose someone else

all it does is open up a can of worms

and nothing says i have to tell them anything....

and no replies to # 268

anyone ever been to a wedding where the florist was never seen, and just sent a truck with the flowers?

Yes.  In every wedding I have ever attended as a guest, I have had zero knowledge of or interaction with the florist.

In every wedding I have ever attended as a member of the wedding party, someone would turn up in the dressing area with a box of bouquets and corsages and things.  It's been the mother of the groom, the wedding planner, a staff member at the church... I don't think I have ever seen the floral delivery person at the ceremony venue.

In my experience, the majority of the flowers have been at the reception venue, so the florist might show up there to set the centerpieces out directly.  I think I've seen the flowers dropped off at the ceremony by the florist and picked up by some random family member.

I'm not saying that is how it works in all cases - chiver and thyme spoke of a more hands on service, but that is definitely not the only way it can be done.

Flowers are delivered before the wedding ceremony and before the reception. Never during the events. And many weddings now have wedding coordinators who take care of all that stuff. Florists really doesn't need to be involved at all other than dropping off the flowers.

[thyme4change]

Certainly, there is no question that wouldn't have to stand there and watch two men take vows and kiss and dance together.  The christian church teaches people to stand up for their beliefs, and she thinks she is doing that.  By not taking the order, she believes she has taken a stand.  The church is very often proud of their "persecuted" heritage.  Of course, in general, it is lion's den stories.  So, her church peers are probably surrounding her telling her that the fine is just an example of how god tests us - or whatever.  She thinks she is spreading the word, the gospel, the truth.  Just as Paul is.  

[shelby]

"Folks answer to God, not me."

So happy you admitted it!

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 10:55:09 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Apr 12, 2013 10:32:06 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Last time I checked, no one was forcing this woman at gunpoint. Where does holding guns to people's heads come in to this situation?

Thank you! The violent analogies were starting to freak me out.

You're just misinformed about what it is government actually does.  Government, I'll repeat it until people get it, IS force.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

And the gunpoint statement is not an "analogy". It is a literal statement of fact. Ultimately, your refusal to comply with government demands results in people with guns coming to get you.

[mmhmm]

ABANDON THREAD!  ABANDON THREAD!  MAYDAY!  MAYDAY!

[Tennesseer]

[Opti]

Apr 12, 2013 9:26:39 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Apr 12, 2013 9:07:58 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

She is not participating in a gay ceremony.

No where in its texts does her religion tell her she's not allowed to participate in gay marriage.

do florists just send a truck and a delivery man to a wedding?

i know i have SEEN the florist at every wedding i have ever been at

If that isnt "participating", we have a different understanding of the word

That is what i see as the issue....she did not want to be seen at the event (because of her views)

Will it affect her business in the future? very possibly

But gay marraige, though legal in some states, is still not accepted by all

I would expect some rights group to help her fight this against the state

She does have rights...and freedom of religion happens to be a biggie

Wedding customs may be different in your area or in your social circle. Back when I got married not only were the flowers dropped off and no one from the florist assisted, but we even had the option to avoid the delivery charges by picking them up ourselves. I think it depends on what you get, we didn't have flowers on the pews and perhaps the centerpieces at the reception were part of a package deal and it wasn't handled by my florist. I understand not being part of the pre-wedding setup but to refuse to sell the flowers seems an interesting line to draw.

Religious reasons or no, there is nothing in the bible that says it is OK to sell to single gays but not for wedding ceremonies, etc.

[Phoenix84]

Apr 11, 2013 18:25:18 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

Apr 11, 2013 18:19:29 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Would love to see how the posts would have read if this had been a business that refused service to someone wearing a crucifix.  Bet they would be much different.

What about this.  How would you feel if teaching homosexuality is immoral and a sin in churches is considered hate speech and the government determines that any religious organization that does so will lose any tax advantaged status.  Furthermore, anyone who preeches these things is committing a hate crime and faces fines or imprisonment.

What would you say that hmmmm?  The thing is, I don't think that's too far outside the relm of possibility. 

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 11:34:00 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Apr 11, 2013 18:25:18 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

What about this.  How would you feel if teaching homosexuality is immoral and a sin in churches is considered hate speech and the government determines that any religious organization that does so will lose any tax advantaged status.  Furthermore, anyone who preeches these things is committing a hate crime and faces fines or imprisonment.

What would you say that hmmmm?  The thing is, I don't think that's too far outside the relm of possibility. 

You think far outside the realm of possibility. Religious members are free to preach their beliefs. That will never change nor should it.

[Phoenix84]

"That isn't religious persecution. You get to practice YOUR religion as you wish. What you do not get to do is inflict it on others to the point that you are violating their rights. You don't have the right as a business person in the state of WA operating under a state business license to discriminate against anyone based on their race, sexual orientation or a number of other reasons no matter what you book or god has to say about it. Don't like it? don't go into the service business. Simple."

And that's the thing you don't seem to understand, by not selling flowers for a gay wedding this lady WAS practicing her religion!  She was following her religious principles in daily life and how she ran her business. 

And again, it's ironic you champion civil liberties and then turn around and try and force someone to do something they don't want to do and say "you don't like it?  Tough!"   

[Opti]

Apr 12, 2013 11:28:35 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

And the gunpoint statement is not an "analogy". It is a literal statement of fact. Ultimately, your refusal to comply with government demands results in people with guns coming to get you.

Not true. And even in the cases you are thinking of the refusal has to be followed by several other refusals as well.

Don't get your kids vaccinated for public school - can't enroll in public school. No guns.

Don't return your library materials - fines and eventually your library priviledges revoked. No guns.

Even refusing to pay your registration fee and being pulled over by a policeman involves guns as much as guns are involved in your concealed carry everyday life. If the person isn't violent, their car is impounded, and they have to get money to get it out.

Speeding and not caught - No guns. Happens every day.

[TonyTiger]

Apr 12, 2013 6:06:28 GMT -5 oped said:

Apr 12, 2013 1:12:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I want my Muslim restaurant to serve up some bacon. Or else.

They aren't telling her what flowers to carry. But if she carries them, and a Muslim/gay person/African American wants to buy them, she cannot refuse to sell to a specific person based on religion/sexual orientation/ race... Etc.

And that, of course, is the crux of the problem.

Her religious beliefs inform her (and much of the rest of the population of the planet) that such a sexual orientation is an unholy thing.

Believers are enjoined to shun all sorts of ungodly or unholy or unclean aberrations and abominations.

This is merely one more, in the eyes of traditionalists adhering to any of the Abrahamic religions.

Modernism and revisionism and statutory law cannot un-stigmatize such behaviors or orientations or practices.

Actually, this might prove to be a good test case, in pitting Religious Conscience against contrary Statutory Law.

Is the exercise of Religious Conscience an adequate defense againast a secular law which holds otherwise.

In truth, we did not truly encounter similar barriers with respect to race or religion or origin, etc.

But we DO encounter such barriers in the context of social and civic and business interactions with homosexuals.

As I've specualted upon earlier, we're just now getting around to examining just how deep this particular rabbit-hole runs, and we seem unlikely to "hit bottom" for another few decades at least, if not a few lifetimes.

This one's gonna be a lot trickier than anything similar that's come before it.

In the end, all the Law in the world isn't going to be adequate, if the general population is obliged to sacrifice too much, in order to uphold it.

And sacrificing the Religious Conscience of Christians, Muslims and Jews may very well prove to be that tipping point.

This could get interesting, but I seriously doubt that any of us drawing-air here are going to live long enough to see its resolution.

[justme]

I'm not anti-gay marriage or particularly religious. Though I do have the libertarian viewpoint of let businesses (people) do what they want and the market sort it out, considering the time period with social media and the internet and the overall movement of the country I don't see all business turning into no gays/Jews/blacks/what-have-yous since they will be easy to spot and easy to avoid. And quite frankly I'd rather have all the racists holed up in a whites-only bar that have the surprise of finding out I met someone at a regular bar is racist down the road.

Now, having said that, the whole "where in the Bible does it say you can serve/do business with gays" irks the hell out of me. For one thing, I'm pretty sure the Bible doesn't mention a single thing about vaccines (because they didn't exist then), but we allow parents to opt out of vaccines for their kids for religious beliefs and still send them to school. So it's not like the government isn't already recognizing religious beliefs that aren't spelled out specifically in the Bible. Furthermore, there are many denominations that all have the same book as the Bible yet believe many different things, sometimes vastly different things. Is it no less their religion to believe the things they believe if it's not spelled out word for word in the Bible?

People's religion is completely individual and based on their own beliefs - though, yes they are often influenced/driven by a religious sect - so to say repeatedly that this can't be a religious belief of hers because it's not in the Bible bothers me to no end. Though I'm sure part of that is because the religious faith I do have is shaped quite a lot about what I think and my personal beliefs and not so much what some long dead people wrote in a book or what some person says up on the alter.

[TonyTiger]

Apr 12, 2013 6:51:40 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Apr 12, 2013 6:49:02 GMT -5 Shooby said:

So, you have no right of your religion?

In this context - a secular business serving the public, no.

Man-oh-man, do YOU have a lot of faith in The Law remaining un-changed, as all of this unfolds... 

[thyme4change]

I also think gays should stop comparing themselves to the plight of the African American / Black community.  I don't think their plight is nearly as bad.  They were basically asked to keep it quiet.  As neither a black nor gay person, I would think the history of being black is much more brutal.  Not saying being gay is always perfect and everyone treats them just wonderfully.  I'm not saying there is no struggle there.  

I'm sticking with my theory that this is going to happen - so let's just make same-sex marriage legal, so we can move on.  

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 11:36:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 12, 2013 11:34:00 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

What about this.  How would you feel if teaching homosexuality is immoral and a sin in churches is considered hate speech and the government determines that any religious organization that does so will lose any tax advantaged status.  Furthermore, anyone who preeches these things is committing a hate crime and faces fines or imprisonment.

What would you say that hmmmm?  The thing is, I don't think that's too far outside the relm of possibility.

You think far outside the realm of possibility. Religious members are free to preach their beliefs. That will never change nor should it.

For now.  What about when their kids are in government run schools and they express their personal religious beliefs that they were raised with that homosexual behavior is wrong and a sin and they are suspended for "bullying" because it hurts the feelings of a gay kid?

What about when CPS drops by and determines that the kid got suspended because of the parent's teaching "hate" at home and it is viewed as abuse?  What about when they determine that the parents are members of a "hate group" their church, and they say, "Well, we can't do anything about what ADULTS do and say, or believe, but we have to protect the children"?

What about that? 

This is not far fetched stuff.  We are standing on the edge looking into this abyss now.