is there a "God test" that can be viewed as proof?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 15, 2013 12:38:40 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

Feb 15, 2013 12:19:54 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...well, beerwench did go on to clarify that "no faith=no God" in her life, and we agreed that that was a personal perception as opposed to a universal proof... that's how I read it, anyway... does that answer your question?

I'm not understanding the "universal proof"?  What actual tangible physical undeniable proof is there that God exists?  And I'm someone that does believe in God but I don't have any actual proof other than my own set of beliefs.  And I'm not going to say that just because I believe something that everyone should just because I think it's really really true.... even though I can't actually prove it. 

...well, Virgil is going to post one... he already gave us a teaser... the whole "preponderance of evidence" deal, much like we establish the facts in court... but now we have to wait until Monday...

[Deleted]

I read about something called Pascal's wager in a finance book about the existence of God. How YM is that? It kind of posits that it's more rational to believe in God because of the upsides vs the downsides. Basically if you are right and God exists then you go to heaven. If God doesn't exist then you die and never knew you were wrong. Its a lot more complicated than that and a philosophical exercise.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 15, 2013 12:42:19 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I did not have relations with that spectrometer!!! 

o.O

[Deleted]

It was a riff on Clinton's "I did not have relations with that woman" because he also made the comment about what the definition of "is" is. 

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 15, 2013 12:45:48 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I read about something called Pascal's wager in a finance book about the existence of God. How YM is that? It kind of posits that it's more rational to believe in God because of the upsides vs the downsides. Basically if you are right and God exists then you go to heaven. If God doesn't exist then you die and never knew you were wrong. Its a lot more complicated than that and a philosophical exercise.

...well, thankfully we can be as unYM as we want over here, lol...

...fwiw, I accept that "universal proof" is its own misnomer since too many reject/deflect science and/or faiths... and that while "the sky is blue", its blueness is a perception, dependent upon certain criteria... but hey, that's why we keep talking about this and learning stuff... and we will continue to set markers along our way about what is and isn't and move along from there...

 

[weltschmerz]

Feb 15, 2013 12:45:48 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I read about something called Pascal's wager in a finance book about the existence of God. How YM is that? It kind of posits that it's more rational to believe in God because of the upsides vs the downsides. Basically if you are right and God exists then you go to heaven. If God doesn't exist then you die and never knew you were wrong. Its a lot more complicated than that and a philosophical exercise.

Pascal's Wager isn't rational. It implies that one can deliberately choose which beliefs to hold, and that is practically impossible.
If, in my heart of hearts, I don't believe in God, then all the "upsides" and payoffs won't be enough to MAKE me believe. Sure, I can pretend to believe and go through all the motions, but that's not really belief, is it?

[weltschmerz]

Feb 15, 2013 12:45:48 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I read about something called Pascal's wager in a finance book about the existence of God. How YM is that? It kind of posits that it's more rational to believe in God because of the upsides vs the downsides. Basically if you are right and God exists then you go to heaven. If God doesn't exist then you die and never knew you were wrong. Its a lot more complicated than that and a philosophical exercise.

Pascal's Wager isn't rational. It implies that one can deliberately choose which beliefs to hold, and that is practically impossible.
If, in my heart of hearts, I don't believe in God, then all the "upsides" and payoffs won't be enough to MAKE me believe. Sure, I can pretend to believe and go through all the motions, but that's not really belief, is it?

[weltschmerz]

Sorry for the double post. The board is wonky on my end. Again.

[kent]

OK, how about this?

Do you believe there's such a thing as a trillion dollars?
If so, have you ever seen a trillion dollars?
If you haven't actually seen a trillion dollars, how can you believe there is such a thing?

[swamp]

Feb 17, 2013 12:50:44 GMT -5 kent said:

OK, how about this?

Do you believe there's such a thing as a trillion dollars?
If so, have you ever seen a trillion dollars?
If you haven't actually seen a trillion dollars, how can you believe there is such a thing?

I've seen one dollar, so I can believ there are a trillion of them.  I havent seen one God. 

[weltschmerz]

Feb 17, 2013 12:50:44 GMT -5 kent said:

OK, how about this?

Do you believe there's such a thing as a trillion dollars?
If so, have you ever seen a trillion dollars?
If you haven't actually seen a trillion dollars, how can you believe there is such a thing?

Reason and logic dictate that there's such a thing as a trillion dollars.
An airborne deity who spoke the universe into existence, and keeps track of all our misdeeds so we can be suitably rewarded or punished upon our demise? Not so much.

[Deleted]

Pascal's Wager isn't rational. It implies that one can deliberately choose which beliefs to hold, and that is practically impossible.
If, in my heart of hearts, I don't believe in God, then all the "upsides" and payoffs won't be enough to MAKE me believe. Sure, I can pretend to believe and go through all the motions, but that's not really belief, is it?

It's a thought test - a philosophical exercise. I don't think God would be fooled by it - he probably has a special hell for hypocrites.

[weltschmerz]

Feb 15, 2013 11:02:27 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Feb 14, 2013 18:30:07 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

He does give us certain things, show us certain things, grant us certain requests so that our faith grows steadily over our lifetimes, to the point where, subject to His will, we can appeal to him for big things, and our faith in Him by that point is so strong that we simply know God will honour our requests, subject to His will. It's a process of building, and it's by far the most convincing proof.
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Unless, of course, you're an amputee. Then you're out of luck. God isn't too fond of amputees.

...fwiw, I'm lost by the comment above... is this in reference to another discussion point somewhere?

You've never heard of the amputee argument? Here you go.

What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.

And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.

No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.
whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm

[unrepentant_spendthrift]

My freshman Religious studies professor tried this exercise with what he called the Three Proofs of Gods existence. I only remember two. One was that human imagination is limited to things that exist. Sure, you can imagine a deserted, beautiful island that doesn't exist but you can only do this since islands DO exist, as well as the trees, animals etc that you'd put on your imaginary island. Even when we imagine monsters and alien we give them characteristics that already exist. Since we can imagine only that which exists, and we can imagine God, he must exist. (Did not really convince me, I'm just enjoying the debate)
His second proof was Cause and Effect. If everything we experience is either a cause or an effect, by working backwards we must logically come to an Original Cause hence God = original cause

[frankq]

Looking at the state of affairs in the would today, looking at the behavior exhibited by many Catholic priests, who you would think would be extra good because they (know) there is a God,  I would have to say that I would find it hard to believe that God exists. Taking that same look, one would certainly have to hope he(she) does......So far, I'm certainly not seeing anything that would float my ark.....

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 17, 2013 13:28:43 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Feb 15, 2013 11:02:27 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...fwiw, I'm lost by the comment above... is this in reference to another discussion point somewhere?

You've never heard of the amputee argument? Here you go.

What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.

And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.

No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.
whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm

The only personage in the Bible who was able to heal in miraculous ways was Jesus Christ, and to a lesser extent the Apostles after the first Feast of Pentecost. But Christ's power came through his exceptional faith and his flawless dedication to Father God. Not even the prophets, many of who held fast to their faith in spite of persecution and even death, were gifted as healers.

God's gift of healing is contingent on His will. There is an ordered and logical process to everything. You of all people should be able to understand why suddenly and miraculously regenerating limbs could be a bad idea.

Firstly, the assumption of the amputee is that he/she will be happier with limbs, but science has shown us otherwise. After the initial shock and depression that follows from losing a limb or limbs, amputees, even paraplegics are just as happy (and quite often just as productive) after the loss. God has gifted mankind with the gift of adaptability.

Amputations can become a part of who we are. Nobody would volunteer to go through the process of course, but those who do can experience profound life lessons in humility, compassion, and be drawn closer to others in ways that wouldn't otherwise have been possible. Likewise, it gives others a chance to exercise compassion and care. Instantaneous, miraculous healing of amputees invalidates all of this. Hence if we approach God in prayer, not only are we asking for Him to perform a feat that completely undermines the need for faith, we're asking Him to throw away a part of who we are, rejecting an opportunity He's given us to grow.

And then there are practical issues. Like you say, if limbs were miraculously popping back into existence, faith would be a useless commodity. So let us suppose there are just a few limbs popping back into existence. Are the recipients any happier or more fulfilled? Possibly. Some yes; some no. And now we have the problem of skeptics to deal with--people who don't want to believe; people who will make life miserable for recipients of healings. And worse, we have people who do believe and are now spurned and disheartened that they weren't also healed. We have groups popping up claiming that God healed thirty of their members compared to fourteen of group Y's, hence God must show them more favour.

It turns it into a sordid kind of industry. Push a button and God heals you. If you've been healed, call 555-2121 and get $100.00 for participating in study XYZ. No recognition of the fact that Christ tells us we pray for our needs, acknowledge our priorities, and subject to God's will our prayers will be granted. No recognition of the fact that the Bible covers millennia of history, and in that time talks about healing miracles only being performed for very special purposes. No recognition of the fact that even the Apostle Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 12:7-9:
  

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Prayer is not a tool to get what we want when we want it. It is an appeal to the Creator of the universe for help, for guidance, subject to our faith in Him and our willingness to obey all His laws and diligently seek him.

I have witnessed one miraculous healing. It had nothing to do with an amputation.

A fellow church member who I trust with all my life not to lie witnessed the miraculous healing of a man whose leg had been withered and useless from birth during an anointing (this was back in the 1970's). Nobody 'documents' these kinds of incidents. I imagine anybody they actually happen to couldn't care less if some scientist or doctor wants to write it up in a journal.

They're rare, silent, and miraculous. Reserved for special times, special circumstances, and very rare occasions. That's the point.

[weltschmerz]

Amputations can become a part of who we are. Nobody would volunteer to go through the process of course, but those who do can experience profound life lessons in humility, compassion, and be drawn closer to others in ways that wouldn't otherwise have been possible. Likewise, it gives others a chance to exercise compassion and care. Instantaneous, miraculous healing of amputees invalidates all of this. Hence if we approach God in prayer, not only are we asking for Him to perform a feat that completely undermines the need for faith, we're asking Him to throw away a part of who we are, rejecting an opportunity He's given us to grow.
--------------------
And yet, folks pray for God to heal their cancer/diabetes/multiple sclerosis all the time. Some even swear it works. The only ones it never works for are amputees.

Next time I'm treating a cancer patient, I'll tell them it's a life lesson in humility and gives others a chance to express compassion.
I'm sure that will brighten their day.

[weltschmerz]

Firstly, the assumption of the amputee is that he/she will be happier with limbs, but science has shown us otherwise. After the initial shock and depression that follows from losing a limb or limbs, amputees, even paraplegics are just as happy (and quite often just as productive) after the loss.
---------------------------
Link, please. You forget what I do for a living. I have yet to meet an amputee who wouldn't kill to get their limbs back.

[Virgil Showlion]

The only ones it never works for are amputees.

It does work for amputees. Just not in any 'documented cases'.

And regenerating a limb would be at the pinnacle of miraculous. There's absolutely no other way to explain it. For anybody it does happen to, they'd have to have an utterly exceptional degree of faith, as well as an extremely pressing need to get the limb back.

Next time I'm treating a cancer patient, I'll tell them it's a life lesson in humility and gives others a chance to express compassion.
I'm sure that will brighten their day.

You'd be surprised.

Link, please. You forget what I do for a living. I have yet to meet an amputee who wouldn't kill to get their limbs back.

Knock yourself out: Link

[weltschmerz]

It does work for amputees. Just not in any 'documented cases'.
--------------
Give me an undocumented case, then.

[weltschmerz]

Knock yourself out: Link
Sorry, those thousands of links tell me about unemployment, divorce, and lottery wins. Show me a link that says amputees are just as happy as they were before they lost their limbs.

[weltschmerz]

He does give us certain things, show us certain things, grant us certain requests so that our faith grows steadily over our lifetimes, to the point where, subject to His will, we can appeal to him for big things, and our faith in Him by that point is so strong that we simply know God will honour our requests, subject to His will. It's a process of building, and it's by far the most convincing proof.
------------------------
God will honour our requests? Which ones? We've already established that only Jesus was able to heal.
Prayers for health and healing sickness? No. Prayers for rain during a drought? No. Prayers for world peace? No.
So, which requests of ours does God honour? Peace of mind? Serenity? Abilty to cope?
You don't need God for that, unless you're susceptible to the placebo effect.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 17, 2013 13:28:43 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Feb 15, 2013 11:02:27 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...fwiw, I'm lost by the comment above... is this in reference to another discussion point somewhere?

You've never heard of the amputee argument? Here you go.

What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.

And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.

No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.
whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm

...no, hadn't heard of the amputee argument... or, if I heard it, it wasn't memorable since it's not successful... but thanks...

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 17, 2013 14:26:17 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 17, 2013 13:28:43 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

You've never heard of the amputee argument? Here you go.

...

Jesus' God's gift of healing is contingent on God's His will. There is an ordered and logical process to everything. You of all people should be able to understand why suddenly and miraculously regenerating limbs could be a bad idea.

...

...couldn't resist the fix...

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...fwiw, the recent thread questions reminded me of a runnersworld article of a guy who pursued voluntary amputation... so I went and looked up the link..

www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/life-and-limb

[Virgil Showlion]

Sorry, those thousands of links tell me about unemployment, divorce, and lottery wins. Show me a link that says amputees are just as happy as they were before they lost their limbs.

Losing a limb is a traumatic event like any other. You'll have to dig through the list of publications to find it explicitly mentioned in the context of happiness set point theory.

I was introduced to the concept through a book called 'Mind Over Mood'. I recall 'loss of limbs and/or mobility' (or something to that effect) was among the list of most traumatic events. The thesis, however, was that amputees' happiness was mean-reverting just like everyone else's. Frankly, I don't care enough about persuading you to dig through the references.

Your previous reply suggests you're not even grasping the concept. You state "I have yet to meet an amputee who wouldn't kill to get their limbs back," and I don't doubt you. I know people who'd kill to win the lottery, or people who'd kill to become a famous rock star. The fact remains that neither of those things would bring them a permanent increase in happiness any more than the loss of a limb brings a permanent decrease in happiness.

the recent thread questions reminded me of a runnersworld article of a guy who pursued voluntary amputation...

They've had a few cases, but most surgeons will refuse to amputate a healthy limb.

God will honour our requests? Which ones? We've already established that only Jesus was able to heal.
Prayers for health and healing sickness? No. Prayers for rain during a drought? No. Prayers for world peace? No.

Certainly prayers for health and healing. I've seen men anointed for torn ligaments, ratched backs, chronic stomach pain, nerve pain, with results that ranged from 'mild improvement' to 'instantly healed'.

Regenerating a limb is a miracle of miracles. The only Biblical example of a man with that capacity to heal was Christ himself. And even then the Bible never explicitly mentions Christ healing a man by growing a brand new limb.

Prayers for rain during a drought aren't out of the realm of possibly being granted, but again we have to consider the magnitude of the request to supernaturally alter the weather.

Prayers for world peace aren't going to come true, but in that case the Bible tells us very explicitly that they aren't going to come true. At least not until Christ returns.

[weltschmerz]

It does work for amputees. Just not in any 'documented cases'.

And regenerating a limb would be at the pinnacle of miraculous. There's absolutely no other way to explain it. For anybody it does happen to, they'd have to have an utterly exceptional degree of faith, as well as an extremely pressing need to get the limb back.
------------------------
Still waiting for your undocumented cases.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 18, 2013 5:24:25 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

It does work for amputees. Just not in any 'documented cases'.

And regenerating a limb would be at the pinnacle of miraculous. There's absolutely no other way to explain it. For anybody it does happen to, they'd have to have an utterly exceptional degree of faith, as well as an extremely pressing need to get the limb back.
------------------------
Still waiting for your undocumented cases.

I already gave you one. My friend's anecdote about the healing he witnessed in the 1970's, about a man with a leg withered and atrophied since birth, being anointed and gaining full use of his limb.

Yes I know that only falls in the broader category of "limb regeneration", but it's what I was referring to.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...limb regeneration is seen when Peter and John healed the lame man, Acts 3... and Acts 5 implies it through sheer statistical averages... meanwhile, limbs are regrown/regenerated everyday by others of God's creatures... that He designed humans differently doesn't bother me too much, since, you know, we've got other good stuff, like higher mental capacity/cognitive reasoning, and being bipedal with opposing thumbs...

 

[weltschmerz]

I already gave you one. My friend's anecdote about the healing he witnessed in the 1970's, about a man with a leg withered and atrophied since birth, being anointed and gaining full use of his limb.

Yes I know that only falls in the broader category of "limb regeneration", but it's what I was referring to.
---------------------
But why would he do that? Surely the guy was just as happy with his withered leg, right?