is there a "God test" that can be viewed as proof?

[chiver78]

as a spinoff thread to discussion in the P&M thread about Texas looking to limit "critical thinking" lessons, I've been asked to start a thread here in Religious Discussion about a "God test" that was in fact valid. links will be posted to this effect by others in due time.

I'm personally not religious, and consider myself a "recovering" Catholic. I was born and raised in the Church, having been baptized and later technically confirmed even though I was already questioning. for those that may worry about my intentions starting this thread in here, please try not to. in academic discussion, I'm happy to participate objectively. as with any thread in this area, any personal attacks will be shut down by moderators and deleted.

[Virgil Showlion]

It will take me until Friday at least to compile the material I talked about, chiver78. But of course others can present their own views in the meantime.

[The Captain]

At the risk of sounding mushy, I need no further proof then when I look in DD's eyes.  The miracle that is life cannot simply be a cosmic accident.

ETA - Holy Shit!  I just started reading the thread that prompted this one...make my statement above seem very, well, infantile.

Sigh - I'll have to go drag out my theoretical catholicism books and start drafting a much better reasoned response.

[mmhmm]

Nothing infantile about loving your child, captain.

[Deleted]

A couple of authors have said it better than I could:

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."
(Douglas Adams / 1952-2001 / The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)


and

From Life of Pi:

"'So tell me, since it makes no factual difference to you and you can't prove the question either way, which story do you prefer? Which is the better story, the story with animals or the story without animals?' Mr. Okamoto: 'That's an interesting question?' Mr. Chiba: 'The story with animals.' Mr. Okamoto: 'Yes. The story with animals is the better story.' Pi Patel: 'Thank you. And so it goes with God.'"

Chapter 99, page 317

[Virgil Showlion]

Um... yeah?... Archie.

[mmhmm]

I'll look forward to your compilation, Virgil.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...man, I was specifically avoiding that thread... now you have me intrigued...

[Green Eyed Lady]

You didn't miss much.  It dissolved into a shameful, name-calling, melee with attempts at humilation and disgraceful insulting and belittling being the special of the day.

That being said, I anxiously await Virgil's postings.  I'll just be reading and not posting, but I'm anticipating some interesting stuff!

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 13, 2013 23:47:36 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

You didn't miss much.  It dissolved into a shameful, name-calling, melee with attempts at humilation and disgraceful insulting and belittling being the special of the day.

That being said, I anxiously await Virgil's postings.  I'll just be reading and not posting, but I'm anticipating some interesting stuff!

...ah, thanks for the tip... and tbh, that's one of the many reasons I've kinda stayed away from P&tM lately... I've just gotten, tired?, for lack of a better word...

[Deleted]

I'd have to disagree with Green on that one, actually. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

That's what makes the world interesting, oped.  Differences of opinion.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 13, 2013 23:47:36 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

You didn't miss much.  It dissolved into a shameful, name-calling, melee with attempts at humilation and disgraceful insulting and belittling being the special of the day.

That being said, I anxiously await Virgil's postings.  I'll just be reading and not posting, but I'm anticipating some interesting stuff!

I should point out that this won't be an exclusively Internet-based compilation. It will include at least a few published books that aren't available in electronic format (to the best of my knowledge) and will have to be purchased using "good old fashioned" methods. It would also include at least two lectures (not given by me, I'm not a minister) on fulfillment of prophecies, and although I know they're available in video format, I don't believe they're accessible online. It's another thing I'll have to look into.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Sounds interesting, Virgil.  Even if I can't read it all, what I can access - one way or the other - I shall look forward to what I can get.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

I'm quoting part of Archie's quoted text (which he posted in red).

I tend to agree with this. In order to believe in God, a person needs faith that He exists. Without that faith, there is no God.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 14, 2013 1:03:40 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

I'm quoting part of Archie's quoted text (which he posted in red).

I tend to agree with this. In order to believe in God, a person needs faith that He exists. Without that faith, there is no God.

The Bible states "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

It also makes it clear in numerous places that God has no need of man, let alone need of man's faith. One scripture that immediately comes to mind is Acts 17:24-25: "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands; neither is He served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing He Himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things"

Another verse that comes to mind is Matthew 3:8-9: "Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

If you read the verse in context, Christ was explaining to the Israelites--the descendants of Abraham--that their ancestry meant all of nothing outside of the meaning God had prescribed. He could raise up rocks to worship Him if that's what He wanted.

The Book of Revelations laments that real, living faith will scarcely exist by the time Christ returns.

[Deleted]

Feb 13, 2013 22:48:56 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Um... yeah?... Archie.

um... yes... Virgil.

[swamp]

Feb 14, 2013 1:39:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 14, 2013 1:03:40 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I'm quoting part of Archie's quoted text (which he posted in red).

I tend to agree with this. In order to believe in God, a person needs faith that He exists. Without that faith, there is no God.

The Bible states "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

It also makes it clear in numerous places that God has no need of man, let alone need of man's faith. One scripture that immediately comes to mind is Acts 17:24-25: "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands; neither is He served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing He Himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things"

Another verse that comes to mind is Matthew 3:8-9: "Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

If you read the verse in context, Christ was explaining to the Israelites--the descendants of Abraham--that their ancestry meant all of nothing outside of the meaning God had prescribed. He could raise up rocks to worship Him if that's what He wanted.

The Book of Revelations laments that real, living faith will scarcely exist by the time Christ returns.

Do you see a problem with using the Bible to prove God exists?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 14, 2013 9:03:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

Feb 14, 2013 1:39:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

The Bible states "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

It also makes it clear in numerous places that God has no need of man, let alone need of man's faith. One scripture that immediately comes to mind is Acts 17:24-25: "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands; neither is He served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing He Himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things"

Another verse that comes to mind is Matthew 3:8-9: "Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

If you read the verse in context, Christ was explaining to the Israelites--the descendants of Abraham--that their ancestry meant all of nothing outside of the meaning God had prescribed. He could raise up rocks to worship Him if that's what He wanted.

The Book of Revelations laments that real, living faith will scarcely exist by the time Christ returns.

Do you see a problem with using the Bible to prove God exists?

...well, I read Virgil's response as directly countering the claim that no faith = no God... which, presumably, comes from a mistaken Biblical reference... makes sense to me to show where the Bible claims otherwise...

[Deleted]

...well, I read Virgil's response as directly countering the claim that no faith = no God... 

And that about sums it up. If you don't believe then there isn't one (in the non-believer's world, anyway). Everyone gets to decide for themselves. 

In fact, my DD tried tattling on my DS this past weekend because "DS said Jesus is dumb". I told her that even though that wasn't a very nice thing to say, everyone get to decide for themselves about religion.  And then I told DS not to say that ANYONE is dumb. 

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 14, 2013 9:27:02 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

...well, I read Virgil's response as directly countering the claim that no faith = no God... 

And that about sums it up. If you don't believe then there isn't one (in the non-believer's world, anyway). Everyone gets to decide for themselves. 

In fact, my DD tried tattling on my DS this past weekend because "DS said Jesus is dumb". I told her that even though that wasn't a very nice thing to say, everyone get to decide for themselves about religion.  And then I told DS not to say that ANYONE is dumb. 

...you drew that conclusion from my post?

...in any reality, perception is but one aspect... we thought the world was flat, until proven otherwise... we thought that germs were only air-born, until proven otherwise... we thought I didn't exist, until I logged in and proved otherwise... so, while you are right that to believe in a God requires faith, you are wrong to say that without belief/faith, there is no God...

...and that's not "just my humble opinion"...

[Deleted]

I take it you skimmed the part about "in the non-believer's world", then? 

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 14, 2013 9:34:41 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I take it you skimmed the part about "in the non-believer's world", then? 

...no... I read it... did you read my response? I'll be happy to clarify, if need be... ?



eta ...or maybe I don't understand what you mean when you say, "everyone gets to decide for themselves"?

[Deleted]

I just thought it was funny that I just finished Life of Pi and son just finished Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...

I'm sure that means something? ....

[Deleted]

Feb 14, 2013 9:42:06 GMT -5 oped said:

I just thought it was funny that I just finished Life of Pi and son just finished Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...

I'm sure that means something? ....

42

[Deleted]

Feb 14, 2013 9:37:20 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Feb 14, 2013 9:34:41 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I take it you skimmed the part about "in the non-believer's world", then? 

...no... I read it... did you read my response? I'll be happy to clarify, if need be... ?



eta ...or maybe I don't understand what you mean when you say, "everyone gets to decide for themselves"?

Well, I have to live this life I have here, and in this life of mine there is no god. In yours or others there might be, but in mine there isn't. So yes, I DO get to decide MY perception of reality. 

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 14, 2013 9:45:41 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

Feb 14, 2013 9:37:20 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...no... I read it... did you read my response? I'll be happy to clarify, if need be... ?



eta ...or maybe I don't understand what you mean when you say, "everyone gets to decide for themselves"?

Well, I have to live this life I have here, and in this life of mine there is no god. In yours or others there might be, but in mine there isn't. So yes, I DO get to decide MY perception of reality. 

...well, I heartily agree with you that your perception of reality is yours to have and hold... I essentially said that the axiom "perception = reality" doesn't serve as a proof...

[Deleted]

I wasn't aware that I needed to "prove it" to anyone but myself. 

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Feb 14, 2013 9:56:47 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I wasn't aware that I needed to "prove it" to anyone but myself. 

...well, I think that's why they started this thread...

[Deleted]

Sheeple!