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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 14, 2013 10:18:57 GMT -5
Sheeple!  ...I know you are, but what am I?  ...takes one to know one...  ...neener, neener! 
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2013 10:20:51 GMT -5
<< waits for her wedgie and/or swirly >>
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 14, 2013 11:07:26 GMT -5
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 14, 2013 11:36:56 GMT -5
I agree. Whether or not I believe there is a God doesn't have any bearing on whether or not there actually is a God. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. We won't know until we die.
But quoting a religious tome to prove God is circular logic at it's finest.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 14, 2013 11:39:18 GMT -5
Of course the Bible says there is a God, it's a book about God!!!! The Koran also talks about God, but calls him Allah. Same general idea, though. Be nice. Honor God, be humble, etc. etc. |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 14, 2013 11:44:35 GMT -5
whether or not there actually is a God. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. We won't know until we die. ...but this thread may very well introduce us to such proof... aren't you excited... ?  |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 14, 2013 11:46:24 GMT -5
...yeah! finally... a validated post!  |
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 14, 2013 12:32:24 GMT -5
whether or not there actually is a God. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. We won't know until we die. ...but this thread may very well introduce us to such proof... aren't you excited... ? Since 12 years of Cathechism, a lifetime membership in a Catholic parish, sending my kids to Catholic school, and taking various religion classes in college hasn't convinced me there is a God, I'm not holding my breath.  I find it annoying that those who have a strong faith think that those of us who don't haven't thought about the presence of God and if we only read the Bible, we'd believe too. I have read the Bible, I've read the Koran, I've studied religious history, I'm pretty well versed in Catechism, and I have given the issue much thought. I still think about it. |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 14, 2013 12:35:21 GMT -5
I find it annoying that those who have a strong faith think that those of us who don't haven't thought about the presence of God and if we only read the Bible, we'd believe too. I have read the Bible, I've read the Koran, I've studied religious history, I'm pretty well versed in Catechism, and I have given the issue much thought. I still think about it. ...yeah... I find it annoying whenever people do that, too... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2013 14:28:42 GMT -5
I find it annoying that those who have a strong faith think that those of us who don't haven't thought about the presence of God and if we only read the Bible, we'd believe too. I have read the Bible, I've read the Koran, I've studied religious history, I'm pretty well versed in Catechism, and I have given the issue much thought. I still think about it. ...yeah... I find it annoying whenever people do that, too... Who says we can't find common ground?  |
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 14, 2013 14:36:29 GMT -5
<<sits down with two sharpened #2 pencils and some scratch paper>> Ok... I'm ready for the test!  The answer is C. Always C. |
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 14, 2013 15:31:54 GMT -5
Of course the Bible says there is a God, it's a book about God!!!! The Koran also talks about God, but calls him Allah. Same general idea, though. Be nice. Honor God, be humble, etc. etc. BTDT was pointing out in Reply #18 that I was addressing the nature of God. In that arc, we've posted that God does exist, and the question is whether His continued existence is predicated on our belief in Him. As for whether the Bible proves the existence of God: yes, and no. No, God does not exist simply because the Bible says he exists, which is the circular logic you're referring to. But yes in the sense that in any number of ways, diligent study of the Bible reveals that its knowledge couldn't possibly be the product of the minds of men. The books, videos, and references I'm compiling for chiver--which will have to wait until Monday, because I need to consult with some friends on if/how the media might be accessible online--present evidence to this effect. For proof from the Bible, we can look to the incredible detail of prophecy and the flawless prophetic accuracy. We can look to what the Bible actually says about health and the natural world, and compare that to any number of the beliefs being taught by the most educated cultures in the world at the time the Bible was written, wherein we see flawless technical accuracy contrasted against absurd quackery. We can look at the utter harmony of the Bible, showing the consistency of themes and complete absence of contradictions, despite the book itself being written over milliennia by dozens of men. Part of this includes logically debunking the many "contradictions" that critics point out--often from a position of formidable ignorance--and part of it reveals an analysis of historical context, translations, etc. We can also prove that Biblical texts have been preserved perfectly over the millennia, and examine the nature of the Bible itself, as a compilation of texts and literature. I do all this for two reasons: 1) because what I seek to prove is that the God of the Bible exists, not some nebulous concept of 'God' that we know nothing about or the God of another religion, and 2) because these scriptural proofs are really the only proof accessible to anyone not genuinely interested in knowing, loving, and obeying the true God of the Bible. The more comprehensive proofs are seen by actually living a God's way of life in its entirety and seeing the good fruits of that way of life. Simply put: God's way of life works. Another critical proof for many Christians is healings and answered prayer, but the Bible tells us these gifts from God are consistently accessible to men who obey all of God's laws, love Him above all things, are not testing Him, and are diligent and humble in seeking Him. God can certainly, by His grace, answer the prayers of individuals who don't meet all of these criteria, and He often does. But the only guarantees--which are the substance of a proof--that the Bible provides require the prerequisite faith and the action just described. Ergo, these proofs may not be accessible to anyone here who views this as simply an academic exercise. In short, building faith isn't a process where God grants us incontrovertible signs or miracles that prove He exists and undermine the need for faith. He does give us certain things, show us certain things, grant us certain requests so that our faith grows steadily over our lifetimes, to the point where, subject to His will, we can appeal to him for big things, and our faith in Him by that point is so strong that we simply know God will honour our requests, subject to His will. It's a process of building, and it's by far the most convincing proof. Totally and utterly contrary to the scientific method, which demands that all things be instantly observable, completely controllable, and infinitely repeatable. But that's by design, and I've increasingly come to see that it's a beautiful design. At any rate, back to work... |
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 14, 2013 18:30:07 GMT -5
He does give us certain things, show us certain things, grant us certain requests so that our faith grows steadily over our lifetimes, to the point where, subject to His will, we can appeal to him for big things, and our faith in Him by that point is so strong that we simply know God will honour our requests, subject to His will. It's a process of building, and it's by far the most convincing proof.
----------
Unless, of course, you're an amputee. Then you're out of luck. God isn't too fond of amputees.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 10:46:34 GMT -5
fulfillment of prophecies,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy#Definitions
Prophecy is a process in which one or more messages that have been communicated to a prophet[1] are then communicated to others. Such messages typically involve divine inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of conditioned events to come (cf. divine knowledge) as well as testimonies or repeated revelations that the world is divine.[citation needed] The process of prophecy especially involves reciprocal communication of the prophet with the (divine) source of the messages. Various concepts of prophecy are found throughout all of the world's religions and cults. To a certain degree prophecy can be an integral concept within any religion or cult. The term has found deep usage in the Abrahamic religions, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam,Baha'i and Mormonism along with many others.[2]
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 15, 2013 11:02:27 GMT -5
He does give us certain things, show us certain things, grant us certain requests so that our faith grows steadily over our lifetimes, to the point where, subject to His will, we can appeal to him for big things, and our faith in Him by that point is so strong that we simply know God will honour our requests, subject to His will. It's a process of building, and it's by far the most convincing proof. ---------- Unless, of course, you're an amputee. Then you're out of luck. God isn't too fond of amputees. ...fwiw, I'm lost by the comment above... is this in reference to another discussion point somewhere? |
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Feb 15, 2013 12:01:58 GMT -5
I'm quoting part of Archie's quoted text (which he posted in red).
I tend to agree with this. In order to believe in God, a person needs faith that He exists. Without that faith, there is no God. For that person? |
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Feb 15, 2013 12:07:23 GMT -5
And that about sums it up. If you don't believe then there isn't one (in the non-believer's world, anyway). Everyone gets to decide for themselves. In fact, my DD tried tattling on my DS this past weekend because "DS said Jesus is dumb". I told her that even though that wasn't a very nice thing to say, everyone get to decide for themselves about religion. And then I told DS not to say that ANYONE is dumb. ...you drew that conclusion from my post? ...in any reality, perception is but one aspect... we thought the world was flat, until proven otherwise... we thought that germs were only air-born, until proven otherwise... we thought I didn't exist, until I logged in and proved otherwise... so, while you are right that to believe in a God requires faith, you are wrong to say that without belief/faith, there is no God... ...and that's not "just my humble opinion"... I'm interpreting this (No faith, No God) as no God for the person who has no faith. More of a personal thing than a catch all phrase. Am I wrong? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 12:15:37 GMT -5
That's my take on it. The only person you need to prove or disprove the existence of god to is yourself.
Say someone looks up at the sky and it is green to them. Everyone else in the world is telling them that it's blue, but they still see green every time they look up. So they go along and agree that the sky is blue, but secretly they know that sky is green.
People can tell other's what they believe the truth is, but each individual person has their own truth and no one is going to sway them even if they talk until their blue in the face.
IMHO anyway. I have been told that I misunderstood the whole point of this thread so I will stop now.
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Feb 15, 2013 12:16:25 GMT -5
I really can't see there being a God test available. Either a person chooses to believe or not. It comes under the 'free choice' heading we hear about. God will not force anyone to believe. A personal relationship is available, God would love for all peoples to choose Him, but he understands if one doesn't. Since we don't know a person's heart, we are unable to judge a person in any way. That job belongs only to God. There is mercy in judgement when it comes from heaven.
Have you ever felt true mercy? It's indescribable and such a feeling of freedom the likes of which could never be felt in the physical world.
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Feb 15, 2013 12:19:01 GMT -5
That's my take on it. The only person you need to prove or disprove the existence of god to is yourself. Say someone looks up at the sky and it is green to them. Everyone else in the world is telling them that it's blue, but they still see green every time they look up. So they go along and agree that the sky is blue, but secretly they know that sky is green. People can tell other's what they believe the truth is, but each individual person has their own truth and no one is going to sway them even if they talk until their blue in the face. IMHO anyway. I have been told that I misunderstood the whole point of this thread so I will stop now. NO, no, don't stop. Varied beliefs help others to understand other view points. I may not agree, but that's OK. I'm learning. I hope I'm able to learn until the day I pass. (OK, die) VIRGIL said: Simply put: God's way of life works. He has a point there. |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 15, 2013 12:19:54 GMT -5
...you drew that conclusion from my post? ...in any reality, perception is but one aspect... we thought the world was flat, until proven otherwise... we thought that germs were only air-born, until proven otherwise... we thought I didn't exist, until I logged in and proved otherwise... so, while you are right that to believe in a God requires faith, you are wrong to say that without belief/faith, there is no God... ...and that's not "just my humble opinion"... I'm interpreting this (No faith, No God) as no God for the person who has no faith. More of a personal thing than a catch all phrase. Am I wrong? ...well, beerwench did go on to clarify that "no faith=no God" in her life, and we agreed that that was a personal perception as opposed to a universal proof... that's how I read it, anyway... does that answer your question? |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 15, 2013 12:20:40 GMT -5
...ah, I see she posted while I was typing... |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 15, 2013 12:22:51 GMT -5
IMHO anyway. I have been told that I misunderstood the whole point of this thread so I will stop now. ...I hope you don't mean by me... from post #28? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 12:26:45 GMT -5
Well, you did imply the point of the thread is to prove the existence of god.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 12:33:44 GMT -5
Universal proof of something is really just everyone agreeing to agree.
We agree that "whatever it is" falls within the parameters of whatever means of testing we perform on it. Mankind created those tests; it's akin to using the bible to prove god's existence. We're using tools that we came up with to prove that the things they measure exist.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 15, 2013 12:35:46 GMT -5
Well, you did imply the point of the thread is to prove the existence of god. ...well, yeah... considering the OP and title... and then you sheepled me and I neenered you... I thought there were no hard feelings after that... ? |
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Feb 15, 2013 12:36:19 GMT -5
He does give us certain things, show us certain things, grant us certain requests so that our faith grows steadily over our lifetimes, to the point where, subject to His will, we can appeal to him for big things, and our faith in Him by that point is so strong that we simply know God will honour our requests, subject to His will. It's a process of building, and it's by far the most convincing proof. ---------- Unless, of course, you're an amputee. Then you're out of luck. God isn't too fond of amputees. Dutt is sad Welt feels this way. You truly reached my heart. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 12:38:30 GMT -5
Well, you did imply the point of the thread is to prove the existence of god. ...well, yeah... considering the OP and title... and then you sheepled me and I neenered you... I thought there were no hard feelings after that... ? Nah, no hard feelings. Ain't nobody got time for that! |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 15, 2013 12:40:04 GMT -5
Universal proof of something is really just everyone agreeing to agree. We agree that "whatever it is" falls within the parameters of whatever means of testing we perform on it. Mankind created those tests; it's akin to using the bible to prove god's existence. We're using tools that we came up with to prove that the things they measure exist. ...a "depends on what the definition of is is" deal?  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 12:42:19 GMT -5
I did not have relations with that spectrometer!!! |
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