Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 7, 2012 17:39:45 GMT -5
I don't care why they do it. If they're not genuinely disabled, they're abusing the system.
I don't think you people get it. When the money runs out and the US federal government goes bankrupt, there is no more safety net. Social security payouts: gone. Disability and job insurance: gone. Medicare and Medicaid payouts: gone. Food stamps: gone. FEMA and disaster relief: gone.
The elderly, the sick, the disabled, the infirm are going to be thrown under the bus like dead weight, and you're positively deluded if you believe you're doing them a favour now by insisting no major, painful cuts to government programs should occur.
Once the money runs out, it is over. You either have money, or you are dying in the street or starving in a bread line somewhere. If you don't have enough currently saved up for retirement, you're going to be living with a relative or off the charity of some private organization.
Get that into your heads now, because when it comes to pass, my saying "I told you so" isn't going to be worth a fart in a hurricane.
|
|
vandalshandle
Senior Member
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump...
Joined: Oct 12, 2011 20:34:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,005
|
Post by vandalshandle on Nov 7, 2012 17:42:49 GMT -5
"The elderly, the sick, the disabled, the infirm are going to be thrown under the bus like dead weight, and you're positively deluded if you believe you're doing them a favour now by insisting no major, painful cuts to government programs should occur."
So, if we throw them under the bus now, we will be doing them a favor by not feeding their future expectations...?
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 7, 2012 17:44:00 GMT -5
I can appreciate your sentiments, sir, but the numbers don't lie.
These is evidently a substantial cohort of people out there who consider even your mediocre quality of life preferable to working. I have met some of them, along with many individuals I've met who are genuinely disabled.
The fact that there is a genuine need for some people does not magically negate the fact that there is also widespread abuse of the system. We cannot ignore this fact.
Would you rather be thrown under the bus now with a 35% cut to your benefits, or thrown under the bus in a decade with a 100% cut to your benefits?
|
|
grumpyhermit
Well-Known Member
Joined: Jul 12, 2012 12:04:00 GMT -5
Posts: 1,432
|
Post by grumpyhermit on Nov 7, 2012 17:44:08 GMT -5
"The elderly, the sick, the disabled, the infirm are going to be thrown under the bus like dead weight, and you're positively deluded if you believe you're doing them a favour now by insisting no major, painful cuts to government programs should occur." So, if we throw them under the bus now, we will be doing them a favor by not feeding their future expectations...? Well no but we will be saving our own asses and that's all that really matters anyway.
|
|
vandalshandle
Senior Member
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump...
Joined: Oct 12, 2011 20:34:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,005
|
Post by vandalshandle on Nov 7, 2012 17:47:00 GMT -5
"The elderly, the sick, the disabled, the infirm are going to be thrown under the bus like dead weight, and you're positively deluded if you believe you're doing them a favour now by insisting no major, painful cuts to government programs should occur." So, if we throw them under the bus now, we will be doing them a favor by not feeding their future expectations...? Well no but we will be saving our own asses and that's all that really matters anyway. Paging Diogenes! Paging Diogenes! Your search is over!
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Nov 7, 2012 18:16:21 GMT -5
DREAM kids = victimless leaches who need to go back to a country they've never seen or known
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Nov 7, 2012 18:18:55 GMT -5
I can appreciate your sentiments, sir, but the numbers don't lie. These is evidently a substantial cohort of people out there who consider even your mediocre quality of life preferable to working. I have met some of them, along with many individuals I've met who are genuinely disabled. The fact that there is a genuine need for some people does not magically negate the fact that there is also widespread abuse of the system. We cannot ignore this fact. Would you rather be thrown under the bus now with a 35% cut to your benefits, or thrown under the bus in a decade with a 100% cut to your benefits? You said applications are up for disability insurance- what does that have to do with anything- are you referring to applications for disability benefits under SS? If so, applications can be up all they want and doesn't say much of anything as anyone can apply anytime for anything, and reapply at will. The % is going down for people getting benefits: Good info: www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/di_asr/2011/sect04.htmlI was an examiner many moons ago- not easy to get benefits so something other than fraud is driving the numbers.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 7, 2012 18:36:15 GMT -5
Firstly, it's not dropping by anywhere near the margins needed to offset the 145% increase. If we go by the number of claims accepted, the growth is a "mere" 76% increase.
Secondly, I cited the number of claims rather than the number of accepted claims because a failed attempt to obtain disability insurance is still, believe it or not, an attempt at obtaining disability insurance. It's the proper figure to use when attempting to quantify the amount of fraud going on in the system.
Furthermore, from the personal responsibility standpoint (which is what we were originally debating), the fact that more applications are being rejected outright actually strengthens my argument.
Give me one other possible explanation. I dare you.
|
|
vandalshandle
Senior Member
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump...
Joined: Oct 12, 2011 20:34:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,005
|
Post by vandalshandle on Nov 7, 2012 18:37:47 GMT -5
evt,
I was told when I applied for disability SS that my chances of being approved on the first go round was about 15%. I was among those that qualified on the first go round. There are legal companies that do nothing but hire themselves out to applicants who need help getting approval. The wait time for a final decision can be over a year. I am sure that you know all this. There is no easy road to scamming SSDI.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Nov 7, 2012 19:09:09 GMT -5
I know- hated that job too. I guess Virgil sees fraudsters that don't want to work- and there are plenty of them that try to get benefits- but I do not see the uptick as evidence that there is much more fraud than there was- certainly not 145% more. The actual level of fraud vs attempted fraud is one hell of a difference. People apply all of the time for bullshit- had lots of people in their twenties trying to get disability over depression and anxiety. Not knocking mental illness but some people are obviously full of shit- had one claimant trying to get disability- meanwhile had a band and the main career was trying to be a country music star The psych evaluations were very interesting reading- could tell you some freaky stories.
|
|
vandalshandle
Senior Member
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump...
Joined: Oct 12, 2011 20:34:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,005
|
Post by vandalshandle on Nov 7, 2012 19:14:17 GMT -5
evt. My career was in the private health, life and disability insurance field. Believe me, I know the stories. Once I hired a private detective to make Super 8 movies of a guy in his back yard who was playing basketball with his kids, while claiming that he was disabled. We almost had another claim, because the investigator fell out of the tree from which he was filming!
|
|
vandalshandle
Senior Member
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump...
Joined: Oct 12, 2011 20:34:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,005
|
Post by vandalshandle on Nov 7, 2012 19:15:11 GMT -5
We had life claims that turned out to be murder. THOSE were interesting!
|
|
vandalshandle
Senior Member
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump...
Joined: Oct 12, 2011 20:34:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,005
|
Post by vandalshandle on Nov 7, 2012 19:18:24 GMT -5
Once, we had a car full of kids turn over and fall off a cliff at a curve, killing all of them. They sued our client, who built the compact car. It turned out that the kids had covered the whole car with indoor/outdoor carpeting, glued in down, and then drove it up the mountain in the rain. the carpet absorbed about 200 pounds of water, which changed the center of gravity. case dismissed.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 7, 2012 19:19:36 GMT -5
Agreed. But to summarize: going by 1997 as a baseline, claims filed have risen by 145%, claims accepted have risen by 76%, and all of this has occurred despite vast improvements in medical treatments over the past two decades. The US population has grown 15% in this same period.
We can't conclude that the increases are entirely due to an increase in fraudulent claims, but I'm at a loss to think of any other reason that would explain them.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Nov 7, 2012 20:25:45 GMT -5
I think that the aging population explains a lot of it, and the crappy economy probably sent a lot of people to apply that normally would not- people that have conditions that work anyway, or borderline cases that find themselves jobless. No harm in applying so they do. It would make sense because disability outcomes are age dependant- so I would expect the baby boom to translate into a disability boom right around that time.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Nov 7, 2012 21:11:24 GMT -5
Unemployment is also a problem. It's hard for the disabled to get jobs they can do in a good economy. With unemployment up, those who really want to work despite their disabilities can't find jobs and have no recourse except to file for disability. With employers making it a point to get more for less, overwork is sometimes a factor in disability claims, as are more dangerous conditions in some workplaces. There are a lot of things that play into a rise in filings for disability, I'd bet.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 7, 2012 22:40:36 GMT -5
Right. And we concluded above this was fraud. This is also fraud. How does disability outcomes being age-dependent have anything to do with a 145% increase in disability claims?
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Nov 7, 2012 22:45:50 GMT -5
I don't believe it to be fraud, virgil. I treat some of these folks. They want to work badly, even though it's difficult to find things they're actually able to do even when jobs are plentiful. If the cynical want to believe otherwise, that's fine with me. I know what I see, and what I treat.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jun 26, 2024 0:53:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2012 22:46:59 GMT -5
I don't know the statistics, but one thing i think needs massively overhauled is the misdiagnosis of young children with things like ADHD, for which they then qualify for SSI...
I know there are legitimate cases, but I think this is an area of system abuse. I just don't know how pevalent.... I just have anecdotal info on it. I also would not want to stop legitimate cases... but worth looking into.
|
|
vandalshandle
Senior Member
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump...
Joined: Oct 12, 2011 20:34:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,005
|
Post by vandalshandle on Nov 7, 2012 22:59:05 GMT -5
I would appreciate a job as a greeter for Walmart, but they don't seem to want to hire someone who has to greet people while sitting on a bench...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jun 26, 2024 0:53:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2012 23:02:16 GMT -5
They have people here who have to sit doing that job. Or at least they used to, honestly haven't been in a walmart in quite awhile.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 7, 2012 23:08:05 GMT -5
I call it fraud because it undermines the intended use of the system. Moreover, even if the need for income is genuinely there, individuals applying for worker's comp under these pretenses would have to lie rather aggressively about the severity of (or even existence of) physical infirmities, which is black letter fraud.
I won't deny there are circumstances that render a person unemployable in any profession; I have met and worked with genuinely disabled, unemployable people. But as I said earlier, I've also worked with any number of individuals whose "inability to work" was a direct result of their unwillingness to retrain for other professions or their flat-out having given in to self-pity. It is not the right of an individual who is capable of working somewhere—anywhere—to demand society indefinitely pay his way through life, even as paltry as the compensation may be.
|
|
beags
Well-Known Member
I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high functioning sociopath, do your research.
Joined: Nov 29, 2012 22:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 1,035
|
Post by beags on Nov 7, 2012 23:17:30 GMT -5
Can I add a word?
PAYBACK . . . It's why the democrats voted for Obama for 8 years, they wanted payback for Bush.
(Perhaps after the next 4 years are over, America can work on the devastation caused by 16 years of those bozos.)
|
|
vandalshandle
Senior Member
Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump...
Joined: Oct 12, 2011 20:34:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,005
|
Post by vandalshandle on Nov 7, 2012 23:17:48 GMT -5
oped, Walmart does not hire greeters who have to do it sitting down. Hell, they won't even allow me to volunteer for duty as a bailiff at the sheriff's auxiliary unless I can stand for 4 hours of court. I have to work the front desk.
|
|
beags
Well-Known Member
I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high functioning sociopath, do your research.
Joined: Nov 29, 2012 22:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 1,035
|
Post by beags on Nov 7, 2012 23:20:09 GMT -5
I love this one . . .but we need to think up a term for what our government is really doing . .
The poor get free money, the rich get thier own money . . neither of them pay for anything . . . and the middle class funds it all.
What is that called Virgil?
|
|
beags
Well-Known Member
I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high functioning sociopath, do your research.
Joined: Nov 29, 2012 22:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 1,035
|
Post by beags on Nov 8, 2012 0:57:48 GMT -5
I don't believe it to be fraud, virgil. I treat some of these folks. They want to work badly, even though it's difficult to find things they're actually able to do even when jobs are plentiful. If the cynical want to believe otherwise, that's fine with me. I know what I see, and what I treat. there are many applying who should get it, they aren't getting it because the government has to go through so many false claims that they are overwhelmed with paperwork. I have a friend whose husband is completely wheelchair bound due to a car accident. He has no chance of ever being able to walk again. . . . he has been battling for two years. I think he may have finally been approved. Meanwhile, a neighbor of mine was approved for disability in under two years and do you want to know why he is disabled? He has a drinking problem. Seriously? There are people out there who really need it, and they aren't getting it because some bozo thinks his alcohol is more important than getting a job. His alcohol is so damn important that he has to take away disability benefits from someone who is completely wheelchair bound and can't work. But hey, now he gets paid to get drunk. Nice huh? There's something wrong with the system when this happens. I can get disability as well. I never applied for it, because I don't believe I need to. The doctor told me I would qualify. I said Really? and what about the person who truly needs it? I don't see my bum foot keeping me from doing anything except running. I can still work, and I will continue to do so. Keep the disability benefits for someone who truly needs it. Now that being said . . . there's plenty of fraud going on out there with disability . . AND some of it is being supported by the medical people. What we need to do is define a true disability. .. being drunk is not a true disability . . . a drunk can get sober. But a person who has a severed spinal cord will never walk. I may have a bum ankle, but I can still get around, climb ladders, dance, walk, do whatever life requires . . except run. . . and I can do that, but it's more like a hop, drag, lopsided make you laugh your ass off run. But the person with a brain injury or severed spinal cord will never be able to fix it. See what I mean . . real disability . . . somewhat disability . . . and no disability. (being drunk is not disabled, it's stupidity.)
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Nov 8, 2012 9:09:09 GMT -5
One perfect example. I worked with a man in his early 50's, a computer programmer. He had to have an oxygen tank on 24/7 due to breathing problems (I don't know what kind, but he clearly needed it). When we had a round of layoff's his entire department was told they were being let go. We got together for lunch a few weeks later and I asked him how the job search was going. He told me he was finally going to go for disability since his doctor had told him years ago he qualified and would certify him. The guy worked probably longer than most would have in his circumstances and would still be working if he had not been let go.
Do I think this is fraud? No. We may disagree on this but I think there are many people who qualify for disability but try to work as long as they can until there are no other options.
Now of course there is likely an uptick in false claims due to the same economic conditions, but I believe a significant percentage is due to employers not hiring the disabled due to a surplus of employable people at the moment.
|
|
beags
Well-Known Member
I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high functioning sociopath, do your research.
Joined: Nov 29, 2012 22:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 1,035
|
Post by beags on Nov 8, 2012 9:16:45 GMT -5
The oxygen tank would, for me, would fall under a real disability.
That being said, Virgil is still correct, there are people applying that have no business applying. There are people getting it who have no business having it. They are ruining it for those who truly need it.
Now you can blame the economy . . . . I blame it on the fact that a good part of this nation does not know what personal responsibility is . .. . and they look for the country to take care of them, and they will apply for whatever program they can to do it.
Those people are what is ruining the programs for everyone. Disability would be easier to get for those who need it, if the "entitled" would stop leaching the system.
|
|
Value Buy
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 17:57:07 GMT -5
Posts: 18,680
Today's Mood: Getting better by the day!
Location: In the middle of enjoying retirement!
Favorite Drink: Zombie Dust from Three Floyd's brewery
Mini-Profile Name Color: e61975
Mini-Profile Text Color: 196ce6
|
Post by Value Buy on Nov 8, 2012 10:22:38 GMT -5
Whether or not I agree with the definitions; Do I even need to point out the irony of a Canadian who is better informed of US politics then most Americans.... Well just ask Weltzmertz. She will tell you this is true, in Canadian cases, other than Virgil's opinion.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 8, 2012 10:50:56 GMT -5
Moral hazard.
I think you've pretty well summarized it.
I won't judge whether it's wrong or not in these circumstances. Only God knows the man's heart and mind. What I will assert, however, is that it is the man's ethical responsibility to seek employ elsewhere—in any profession—as aggressively as he can within the limits of his disability.
|
|