zipity
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Post by zipity on Sept 23, 2012 21:57:36 GMT -5
The Founder of Christianity would say "Turn the other cheek".
You've heard of him but it sounds like you don't like the example he set.
This is about freedom of speech and not kowtowing to foreign powers and belief systems because they're still mired somewhere between the 7th and the 13th Centuries...
Actually its about freedom of stupidity. The person who created the video knew what reaction he would get out of Muslims in the Middle East and don't bet that he didn't also know exactly what reaction he would get out some people in the west. Its pretty easy to predict the reaction of extremists, Muslim and non-Muslim. You want to be used by the person who made the video, that's your right, go forth and exercise it. Poke a tiger or provoke an extremest, you know what you're going to get, it's not rocket science.
Or maybe it IS a problem with a belief system (Islam) which allows its adherents to engage in such activity - justified and rationalized so conveniently by their own Founder, embedded deeply and repeatedly within their sacred texts...
Or maybe it's a problem with the rule of law in the countries where the violence is taking place. I don't see Muslims across the world rioting, mainly in the Middle East. So what else is new.
fail to recognize belief systems for their vulnerabilities to being used in just such a fashion, and you drift further and further from reality, taking some percentage of folks with you, who so desperately want to cling to illusions of harmlessness, when the potential for harm is there for all but the blindest to see...
harmlessness or violence, as I said extremists come in Muslim and non-Muslim varieties.
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 22:00:28 GMT -5
You DO have a sufficient grasp on reality to understand that in much of The West, folks have become bone-weary of listening to the Islam-Apologists amongst us, making excuses for these savage acts, yes? Tony, i am sorry, but i can't accept what i am doing as Islamic apologism. rather, it is precisely what you referred to earlier as "knowing your enemy". this focus to the point of obsession with Islam is way off target. it will NOT help us win the battle against suicide terrorism. THAT is my primary concern. 1. I was not talking to you. 2. I did not include you in the Islamist-Apologist group. 3. My only obsession is in getting it all on the table. 4. Suicide terrorism is not the problem. 5. The clash of cultures is the problem. 6. I, for one, do my little pittance to call for ours to prevail. As I said elsewhere within the past few days... I believe Islam to be at war with the entire world... It has been at war with the world for more than 1300 years... Round 14 already seems to be underway - it's just that they started swinging before the bell, and some of us just don't get it... But that's an entirely new conversation... |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:03:21 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:04:34 GMT -5
Tony, i am sorry, but i can't accept what i am doing as Islamic apologism. rather, it is precisely what you referred to earlier as "knowing your enemy". this focus to the point of obsession with Islam is way off target. it will NOT help us win the battle against suicide terrorism. THAT is my primary concern. 1. I was not talking to you. 2. I did not include you in the Islamist-Apologist group. 3. My only obsession is in getting it all on the table. 4. Suicide terrorism is not the problem. 5. The clash of cultures is the problem. 6. I, for one, do my little pittance to call for ours to prevail. ho-kay. how is the clash of cultures "the" problem, Tony? |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 22:06:27 GMT -5
1. I was not talking to you. 2. I did not include you in the Islamist-Apologist group. 3. My only obsession is in getting it all on the table. 4. Suicide terrorism is not the problem. 5. The clash of cultures is the problem. 6. I, for one, do my little pittance to call for ours to prevail. ho-kay. how is the clash of cultures "the" problem, Tony? I can't do much more tonight... but if you're going to be around at some point tomorrow, rattle my cage, and I'll try to do some justice to this idea... I think there's some 'livey' subject matter embedded therein... Signing off... have a good one... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 22:07:37 GMT -5
The Founder of Christianity would say "Turn the other cheek".You've heard of him but it sounds like you don't like the example he set. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:08:27 GMT -5
We would also be doing the bible as well I assume? That's fair game, so long as you acknowledge that any teachings of Jesus of Nazareth found in the New Testament are traditionally considered by Christianity as superceding anything found to the contrary in the inherited Old Testament. wow. i agree ABSOLUTELY with this, in concept. in practice, i have been fighting Christians on this subject for over 30 years. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:09:02 GMT -5
ho-kay. how is the clash of cultures "the" problem, Tony? I can't do much more tonight... but if you're going to be around at some point tomorrow, rattle my cage, and I'll try to do some justice to this idea... I think there's some 'livey' subject matter embedded therein... Signing off... have a good one... u2, Tony. peace! |
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:10:01 GMT -5
Muslims are no more a unified and factionless group than Christians. precisely. and radical Islam is just as small a minority as radical Christianity. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2012 22:19:02 GMT -5
As I said elsewhere within the past few days... I believe Islam to be at war with the entire world... It has been at war with the world for more than 1300 years... Round 14 already seems to be underway - it's just that they started swinging before the bell, and some of us just don't get it... But that's an entirely new conversation... i understand that. i think that religion is at war with the secular world, and has been for a thousand years. i think that Islam is in many ways about 200-500 years behind. they will catch up, and they will have the same loss of faith as the West has. but the cure for it is not to send our troops to bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, or anywhere else. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 22:31:12 GMT -5
They will catch up if they are given an opportunity. If we do not continue to manipulate the situation to keep them 200-500 years behind.
Iran in the 1970s was a far different place than it is today. Our continued interferance has been instrumental in keeping them behind.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 23, 2012 23:28:31 GMT -5
We would also be doing the bible as well I assume? That's fair game, so long as you acknowledge that any teachings of Jesus of Nazareth found in the New Testament are traditionally considered by Christianity as superceding anything found to the contrary in the inherited Old Testament. And, when you take into account Jesus' admonitions to "Love Thy Neighbor" and "Turn the Other Cheek", well, that doesn't leave much room for the violence found in the older document to be used to rationalize killing in the name of God. Oh, and, let's not forget... We'll need to filter for usages of such permissions-to-commit-violence in the Christian texts in the context of whether they are still operative and dominant as guiding dogma for the governments of the countries in which their adherents reside... Versus filtering for usages of such permissions-to-commit-violence in the Islamic texts in the context of whether they are still operative and dominant as guiding dogma for the governments of the countries in which their adherents reside... We will need to take both Text Content and Modern Applicability into account, as well, in order to produce a truly realistic picture... ;D "so long as you acknowledge that any teachings of Jesus of Nazareth found in the New Testament are traditionally considered by Christianity as superseding anything found to the contrary in the inherited Old Testament." It might be "traditionally considered " ..however , when you consider what you said, if it is true , how can one pick and choose what one is comfortable with if one is observant and believe the two books contain the word of the supreme being..or at least one of them, the old, that was the original..the second , isn't that really the teachings of the , and the beliefs of the son..? I have also wondered, [as you can see , I am not a Christian so while I am naturally familiar with so much of the religion , a expert I am not even close on..] in Christianity, has the son superseded the father in importance and in power in the beliefs of those who are observant and are strong in faith.. I also have wondered if one can be a Muslim , consider them selves one in religious beliefs and yet be like so many Jews, Christians..not that observant.. I know a Muslim should / must pray five times a day...Observant Jews will also pray a few times a day and in the morning upon arising take time to put on a contraption with biblical versus in a proscribed manner as they say their morning prayers..Woman light sabbath candles and perform a ritual Friday evening..Catholics too have their ritual's , confessions, Mass, candles, space for individual meditation in places of worship, Holy Water, their Saints to intercede for them I believe asking for help from the almighty.. Not sure if Protestants have as much rituals..but all these faiths one can be not that observant yet still be considered what ever the person feels they are religious wise but not sure of the Muslims. As you can see , we really don't know a lot about this religion or those who are part of it..and consider themselves members of it. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 24, 2012 7:22:54 GMT -5
" You've heard of him but it sounds like you don't like the example he set..." It is understandable that one would reach such a conclusion. It also happens to be inaccurate. I absolutely love the example he set. I am simply unable to follow it as closely as one might hope, due to the impracticality of various aspects of that example. Nevertheless, the impracticality of various aspects of such an example does not impede its utility nor value as an ideal or goal or morality or behavioral baseline - the Gold Standard, if you will. I'm simply not good enough to adhere to the Gold Standard to an extent sufficient to do those ideals the justice they deserve. That too. Agreed. Agreed. This is just another skirmish in an ancient and much broader War of Cultures and is merely a convenient incident to reinforce the idea that the Other Side is developing a nasty habit of trying to superimpose their Will over our own. If you want to toss in the towel before the next round has even begun, that's your right, go forth and exercise it. I'll take a pass on that approach, if it's OK with you - and even if it's not OK with you. But... but... but... we're dealing with the Religion of Peace, yes? You don't see Muslims across the world rioting? There have been Muslim riots in the Middle East, across North Africa, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and stretching all the way to southeast Asia and Indonesia. I suggest you look again. That was not the point being made. The point being made was that some belief systems are far more prone to being utilized as the justification for war and violence than others - both historically and in modern times. My contention is: Islam is far more prone to being utilized to justify and trigger war and violence in our present age than is Christianity or Buddihism or Hinduism, etc... ...by an order of magnitude, at the very least. Fluff observations such as 'extremists come in all guises' does not speak to the point. Then again, I don't think that I'd want to take-on that point and argue the Con side of the fence either...   ;D |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 7:51:56 GMT -5
Tony, To move the discussion forward: The Islamic religion is a significant part of the problem. First a brief celebration: "Yeah I won"  Now: What do we do? |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 24, 2012 7:57:32 GMT -5
Tony, To move the discussion forward: The Islamic religion is a significant part of the problem. First a brief celebration: "Yeah I won" Now: What do we do? Yes. I know I've won that particular point. I knew it before I even started. Winning was not the point of the exercise. Taking the opportunity to speak plainly about the underlying cause (the nature of Islam) was the point of the exercise. As to what to do next, I haven't a clue, although I'm just as capable as the next person, to contribute to such speculation and dialogue. Your own thoughts on the subject might provide the catalyst to bring others to the discussion table, in pursuit of next steps, now that some realistic light has been shed upon the spiritual basis and political common demoninator for the Opposition in this ages-old Clash of Cultures. |
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 8:05:35 GMT -5
Tony, To move the discussion forward: The Islamic religion is a significant part of the problem. First a brief celebration: "Yeah I won" Now: What do we do? Yes. I know I've won that particular point. I knew it before I even started. Winning was not the point of the exercise. Taking the opportunity to speak plainly about the underlying cause (the nature of Islam) was the point of the exercise. As to what to do next, I haven't a clue, although I'm just as capable as the next person, to contribute to such speculation and dialogue. Your own thoughts on the subject might provide the catalyst to bring others to the discussion table, in pursuit of next steps, now that some realistic light has been shed upon the spiritual basis and political common demoninator for the Opposition in this ages-old Clash of Cultures. I say we be fucked now that you are "right". We were in a stronger position working to convince the majority of Muslims that they belong to a religion of peace. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 24, 2012 8:16:06 GMT -5
"...I say we be fu---d now that you are 'right'. We were in a stronger position working to convince the majority of Muslims that they belong to a religion of peace." Well, that was certainly helpful, constructive and insightful, wasn't it? Not. Although not entirely unexpected. Oh, and, by the way... It is Muslims who attempt to convince us that they are the 'Religion of Peace'... Not the other way around... It either IS a Religion of Peace or it is not... And, so far, whether one deals in historical terms or in terms of our modern age... The evidence points very convincingly to the "NOT" position... It is not our job to tell them what their religion is... It is our job to use our own common sense to recognize what it is - even if that conclusion is at-odds with their own portrayal, and even if that conclusion is at-odds with what we would wish it to be... It is what it is... It is not our job nor does it lie within our power to change it... It is our job to deal with it effectively in a manner consistent with long-term survival and benefit to our own culture... That is the way in which the real world works... |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 8:33:06 GMT -5
"...I say we be fu---d now that you are 'right'. We were in a stronger position working to convince the majority of Muslims that they belong to a religion of peace." Well, that was certainly helpful, constructive and insightful, wasn't it? Not. Although not entirely unexpected. Oh, and, by the way... It is Muslims who attempt to convince us that they are the 'Religion of Peace'... Not the other way around... It either IS a Religion of Peace or it is not... And, so far, whether one deals in historical terms or in terms of our modern age... The evidence points very convincingly to the "NOT" position... It is not our job to tell them what their religion is... It is our job to use our own common sense to recognize what it is - even if that conclusion is at-odds with their own portrayal, and even if that conclusion is at-odds with what we would wish it to be... It is what it is... It is not our job nor does it lie within our power to change it... It is our job to deal with it effectively in a manner consistent with long-term survival and benefit to our own culture... That is the way in which the real world works... Hey, you won the argument so you can stop arguing it. So we are in for another round of "crusades". The last series lasted about two hundred years. But of course, they didn't have nuclear weapons either. |
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 24, 2012 8:41:22 GMT -5
So,10 pages of nothing, and we still have not decided whether the cartoonist should receive protection?
Or was that decided on page one?Dezi wanted everyone who disagreed with the liberals to go away.........
Polldancer dislikes (or does not trust?) religion, but does not agreeto bring Islam bombers who follow the Koran to justice........
mmhmm refuses to teach rocks..........BUTknows how peaceful the citizens in the ME are...........
I will say one thing.
The cartoonist does have a death wish.........
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 8:44:42 GMT -5
OK, this has evolved to a religious discussion. I am moving it to the Religion Board. Disagree but oh well. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 24, 2012 8:55:03 GMT -5
OK, this has evolved to a religious discussion. I am moving it to the Religion Board. Disagree... but you HAVE found an excuse to move it off the more visible Politics board... a form of censorship in its own right... ;D |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 24, 2012 9:54:59 GMT -5
Well apparently you "won" the argument anyway Tony. ;D Like I said, Dem, it wasn't about 'winning' a particular point... That was a lock-down gimme before we even got started... It was about getting PAST that point... To explore the belief system in its role as political baseline in the guise of religion, in a global political context... Well, we got TO that point but were never allowed to move PAST it, as we were just positioning ourselves to do, with Bill's acknowledgment that the nature of the belief system was part of the problem... It was one of most quick-growing and widely read and passion-engendering threads to have graced the Politics forum in some time... Then again... This is all about (ultimately) enforcing the will of the board's operators... Musn't upset our coupon-clipping and cute-kitten-posting colleagues over their morning coffee... Peace...  |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 24, 2012 10:04:48 GMT -5
You might want to reconsider insulting your "colleagues", Tony. Some of those "colleagues" are a lot more intelligent, and more informed than you are. We've got a lot of posters here. Some agree with you and some don't. Those who don't aren't necessarily "coupon-clipping and cute-kitten-posting" types. You, on the other hand, aren't as impressive to everyone as you are to yourself.
This thread morphed into a discussion of religion, as dem pointed out. I agree with him it belongs here. The "board's operators" make decisions with regard to the board's operations. You do not, and you do not decide why such decisions are made. You don't have access to that information.
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 24, 2012 10:09:56 GMT -5
You might want to reconsider insulting your "colleagues", Tony. Some of those "colleagues" are a lot more intelligent, and more informed than you are. We've got a lot of posters here. Some agree with you and some don't. Those who don't aren't necessarily "coupon-clipping and cute-kitten-posting" types. You, on the other hand, aren't as impressive to everyone as you are to yourself. This thread morphed into a discussion of religion, as dem pointed out. I agree with him it belongs here. The "board's operators" make decisions with regard to the board's operations. You do not, and you do not decide why such decisions are made. You don't have access to that information. One Admin reinforcing the opinion of another - mere background noise - especially coming from someone as hostile to the object of the post, as you are to me - despite your protestations to the contrary. Take off your pompous hat, go back to sleep, and stop telling me what I know and what I do not. |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 24, 2012 10:20:29 GMT -5
...please don't get yourself a time out, Tony... I, too, dislike when mods get personal as posters but are still protected from censure since they're mods... but them's the playground rules... and you'd be missed from the sandbox, imo...  |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 24, 2012 10:27:16 GMT -5
...please don't get yourself a time out, Tony... I, too, dislike when mods get personal as posters but are still protected from censure since they're mods... but them's the playground rules... and you'd be missed from the sandbox, imo... Much obliged, BT...  |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 10:34:16 GMT -5
Any desire to continue the discussion?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 24, 2012 10:44:04 GMT -5
You might want to reconsider insulting your "colleagues", Tony. Some of those "colleagues" are a lot more intelligent, and more informed than you are. We've got a lot of posters here. Some agree with you and some don't. Those who don't aren't necessarily "coupon-clipping and cute-kitten-posting" types. You, on the other hand, aren't as impressive to everyone as you are to yourself. This thread morphed into a discussion of religion, as dem pointed out. I agree with him it belongs here. The "board's operators" make decisions with regard to the board's operations. You do not, and you do not decide why such decisions are made. You don't have access to that information. One Admin reinforcing the opinion of another - mere background noise - especially coming from someone as hostile to the object of the post, as you are to me - despite your protestations to the contrary. Take off your pompous hat, go back to sleep, and stop telling me what I know and what I do not. LOL! Umm, Tony ... you're not a blip on my radar. I have no reason to be hostile to you. I don't even KNOW you. You have no impact on my life. Really. Insulting other posters by implying they're no deeper than coupon-clipping kitten lovers is pompous, by the way. Very pompous. Dem moved the thread here. I agree it was the right move considering what the thread had become. However, neither of us actually calls that shot. If moonbeam believes it should not have been moved, she'll let dem know. |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2012 10:53:29 GMT -5
... However, neither of us actually calls that shot. If moonbeam believes it should not have been moved, she'll let dem know. Don't recall a recent moonbeam sighting. We have been remiss in our problem causing.  |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 24, 2012 10:59:43 GMT -5
Any desire to continue the discussion? ...well, you said we're toast ... so you already nailed it on discussing their endgame, right?  |
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;D
