cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 17:58:40 GMT -5
Are you saying the riots about the cartoons of Mohammed really have nothing to do with Islam? It is just a bunch of people rioting under that pretext? Well, essentially. It is displaced discontent. The cartoons, the movie, they are all convenient and 'socially acceptable" means of voicing discontent within that particular society. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:00:30 GMT -5
Are you saying the riots about the cartoons of Mohammed really have nothing to do with Islam? It is just a bunch of people rioting under that pretext? Well, essentially. It is displaced discontent. The cartoons, the movie, they are all convenient and 'socially acceptable" means of voicing discontent within that particular society. When their 'displaced discontent' kills people - including an Ambassador of the United States within a compound considered by International Law to be sovereign national territory, well, I think w're a little beyond Good Boys Gone Wild kinds of excuse-making and softening of the descriptors for the underlying cause... |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2012 18:01:23 GMT -5
... all of these outrages on the part of a single group ... I do not hold all street protests to be "outrages". I do not see acts of "a single group" but rather ones of multiple groups. |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 18:03:53 GMT -5
"I was suggesting a closer look at the religious precepts that cause Muslims to behave in such ways." That ain't it. Try again. You were on the right track for a moment... No, Cereb... That ain't it in your book... That IS it in mine... World events over the next couple of decades are likely to tell us which one of us more closely described the Challenge du Jour... Well, it can be however you like in your own book. Feel free. I'd like to tell you about the many studies, interviews and research that has been done over the last 10-15 years on the subject of terrorism, most of which I am more than merely acquainted with. But after all, whats the point if you are right, and all the research is wrong eh? What was that about trying to teach a rock to knit? Have a nice night. That is all. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:04:29 GMT -5
... all of these outrages on the part of a single group ... I do not hold all street protests to be "outrages". I do not see acts of "a single group" but rather ones of multiple groups. One need look no further than the common denominator motivating each and every one of those widespread multiple groups... That common denominator is Islam... |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:08:04 GMT -5
"... What was that about trying to teach a rock to knit?..." Indeed... it is one of the reasons why I maintain the stance that I do on this highly charged and controversial subject... but some rocks would rather remain buried in the sand than to look about and to realize that the barbarians are at the gates... still, there is always hope that lovable (and loving) ostriches will one day see the light... |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 18:10:31 GMT -5
"I agree with that 100%. I think much of the anger has to come from being occupied"
That is a portion of it.
Think "Globalization" Think about which country has the most influence in cultural globalization. Hint: McDonald's big mac and MTV
Think about how some Americans feel when they believe that Muslims are taking over America and changing our way of life.
These are some of the seeds.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 18:13:22 GMT -5
"... What was that about trying to teach a rock to knit?..." Indeed... it is one of the reasons why I maintain the stance that I do on this highly charged and controversial subject... but some rocks would rather remain buried in the sand than to look about and to realize that the barbarians are at the gates... still, there is always hope that lovable (and loving) ostriches will one day see the light... Objectivity isn't your strong suit eh? |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 18:15:02 GMT -5
Perhaps, Cretinous, if you won't take things quite so literally, you'll realize that there is no teaching involved with rocks and knitting. Take that and extrapolate ...
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:15:04 GMT -5
"... Objectivity isn't your strong suit eh?" My objectivity in such matters is not impaired one whit more than your own, at worst, and it - and my sense of reality - may very well prove to be in better shape than your own, so, I am content... |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:18:48 GMT -5
"...Think 'Globalization'... " You DO have a sufficient grasp on reality to understand that in much of The West, folks have become bone-weary of listening to the Islam-Apologists amongst us, making excuses for these savage acts, yes? Globalization as basis-for-aggression? Jesus-H-Tap-Dancing-Christ. I suppose it's our fault that the moon doesn't shine as an Islamic Crescent all year long, too? OMG... gimme a flippin' break. Stop making excuses for these people. Next, we'll be hearing that their fathers didn't love them enough.  |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 18:20:41 GMT -5
... all of these outrages on the part of a single group ... I do not hold all street protests to be "outrages". I do not see acts of "a single group" but rather ones of multiple groups. Precisely, billis. These are not the actions of one group, and they're orchestrated. Even the "orchestra leaders" are not confined to one group. |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 18:22:11 GMT -5
"...Think 'Globalization'... " You DO have a sufficient grasp on reality to understand that in much of The West, folks have become bone-weary of listening to the Islam-Apologists amongst us, making excuses for these savage acts, yes? Globalization as basis-for-aggression? Jesus-H-Tap-Dancing-Christ. I suppose it's out fault that the moon doesn't shine as an Islamic Crescent all year long, too? OMG... gimme a flippin' break. Stop making excuses for these people. I have not made any excuses for anyone. I have not said that anyone has any right to the kind of behavior known to us as terrorism. I have made no excuses for murder, beheading, rape, destruction or war of any sort. I also never said globalization was a "basis" it's merely a component. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:26:35 GMT -5
You DO have a sufficient grasp on reality to understand that in much of The West, folks have become bone-weary of listening to the Islam-Apologists amongst us, making excuses for these savage acts, yes? Globalization as basis-for-aggression? Jesus-H-Tap-Dancing-Christ. I suppose it's out fault that the moon doesn't shine as an Islamic Crescent all year long, too? OMG... gimme a flippin' break. Stop making excuses for these people. I have not made any excuses for anyone. I have not said that anyone has any right to the kind of behavior known to us as terrorism. I have made no excuses for murder, beheading, rape, destruction or war of any sort. By trying to take the heat off of Islam - where it rightly belongs - and by trying to divert attention towards the rationale (so-called) - such as globalization - behind their aggression... You distract attention away from the Act, and you distract attention away from the Perpetrator... It's a common tactic used amongst Islam-Apologists and Excuse-Makers... I may have confused the tactic with the intention...  |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 18:27:19 GMT -5
 Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly. Some gotta hate to the moment they die.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 18:28:05 GMT -5
"You DO have a sufficient grasp on reality to understand that in much of The West, folks have become bone-weary of listening to the Islam-Apologists amongst us, making excuses for these savage acts, yes?"
I have an excellent grasp on reality. Enough to see that you are content to sit in your outrage without any thought as to the "why" so we can figure out "how" to put an end to it.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 18:29:45 GMT -5
The heat doesn't belong on Islam. The heat belongs on terrorism. If it belonged solely on Islam, we wouldn't see terrorism from Christians, or Hindus, or any other religious group, and we wouldn't know, and see peaceful, caring Muslims. However, that shouldn't stop you from hating. You seem to enjoy it too much to let anything stop you.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 18:32:23 GMT -5
"By trying to take the heat off of Islam - where it rightly belongs - and by trying to divert attention towards the rationale (so-called) - such as globalization - behind their aggression..". No, you have decided that Islam is the culprit. It's a factor. A component. Not as big of a piece as you would like to think. I have no dog in that fight. I am an Atheist. I could give a rats ass about God, or Allah.
You distract attention away from the Act, and you distract attention away from the Perpetrator... How did I do that? That's EXACTLY where I am going with this!
It's a common tactic used amongst Islam-Apologists and Excuse-Makers... Sorry, I ain't apologizing for anyone despite what you may think.
I may have confused the tactic with the intention... No tactics. Sheer objectivity. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:33:32 GMT -5
The heat doesn't belong on Islam. The heat belongs on terrorism. If it belonged solely on Islam, we wouldn't see terrorism from Christians, or Hindus, or any other religious group, and we wouldn't know, and see peaceful, caring Muslims. However, that shouldn't stop you from hating. You seem to enjoy it too much to let anything stop you. At the moment, the heat belongs squarely upon Islam - the belief system that says that it's OK to kill in the name of God and the defense of Islam and to advance the cause of Islam... It is the Enabler that allows Muslims to try to drag the rest of the world back into the 7th Century at the expense of the hard-won freedoms that we now enjoy... And the lion's share of folks in The West... secular and religious, both... aren't about to let that happen... Even if every Islam-Apologist and We-Are-The-World type in the world comes scrambling out of the woodwork to try to make it otherwise... |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:37:14 GMT -5
"... you have decided that Islam is the culprit..." Indeed. Mostly because it IS the culprit. Name another large-scale religion on the face of the planet in these modern times that has sufficient influence over its followers to convince them that it is OK to kill in the name of God and his Prophet and to kill in the name of The Faith and its Advancement... It is the Great Enabler behind which these barbarians hide themselves as they try to play catch-up in the Great Global Game of Cultural and Social Darwinism... Islam is an Enabler of violence; one need look no further than those so-called Sacred Texts themselves to prove the truth of it. |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 18:41:56 GMT -5
So I see we are right back to square one.
It's ok, lots of folks are uncomfortable with challenging their deep seated views.
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:43:13 GMT -5
So I see we are right back to square one. We never got past it, good colleague - it's just that you were so busy hammering-away that you never noticed... |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 18:44:22 GMT -5
No, I did notice. Call me hopeful. I like to think everyone is capable of learning something, or at least be open to it.
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 18:54:03 GMT -5
No, I did notice. Call me hopeful. When you - and those who would join you in defending Islam against such criticisms - can address such issues as the embedded permissions and calls to violence from their primary scripture that remains dominant and operative today... When you - and those who would join you in defending Islam against such criticisms - can meet the challenge of naming any other major global religion that is presently acting as an Enabler to incite its adherents to large-scale political violence... When you - and those who would join you in defending Islam against such criticisms - can adequately defend Islam's brutal oppression of women and gays and non-believers and apostates and when you can adequately defend Islam's primitive legal framework and its brutal and medieval punishments... Well, then, you might have a bit more luck, in convincing a broader segment of any given audience, that you're on the right track with your approach... Until then, I'll keep my own counsel on who I perceive to be a threat to me, and mine, and my country, and my culture... Your input is certainly welcome but you stand on no higher moral ground nor is your perspective one whit more in touch with reality or one whit safer or more fair than that of someone who will not concede the field to such protestations... Climbs off soapbox... doffs hat... dinner awaits... thank you. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 18:56:36 GMT -5
I do not hold all street protests to be "outrages". I do not see acts of "a single group" but rather ones of multiple groups. One need look no further than the common denominator motivating each and every one of those widespread multiple groups... That common denominator is Islam... One could look at the history of the region and our consistent patterns of manipulation and interference, and make an argument that the common deonominator, is us.... If the terrorists practice Islam, and the individuals protesting the terrorist practice Islam... it seems the religion is not a variable.... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 18:58:18 GMT -5
Muslims are no more a unified and factionless group than Christians.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 18:59:31 GMT -5
"When you - and those who would join you in defending Islam against such criticisms"
Show me where I "DEFENDED" Islam. I did no such thing.
Clearly, you are unable or unwilling to be objective.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 19:06:30 GMT -5
Ok, so I am the stupid one for beating my head against a brick wall for the last 20 or so posts.
Note to self: Don't do that.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Sept 23, 2012 19:13:48 GMT -5
At the moment, the heat belongs squarely upon Islam - I wonder if someone could produce an example of a Muslim producing a video or cartoon that disrespects Muhammad? Is there any question what would happen if you were to find a tiger in the wild an poke it with a stick? Imagine the person who would blame the tiger and profess that the tiger's belief system was flawed. Imagine that same person then taking issue with other people who might say "WTF, what do you expect to happen when you poke a tiger with a stick". Yet the person who poked the tiger and his apologists would take issue with that not understanding why no one but they can understand that it's all the tiger's fault.  Maybe this isn't a problem of Islam but a problem of the person who just poked Islam with a stick. (or video)
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Sept 23, 2012 19:17:51 GMT -5
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