Pouring Gasoline on the Muslim Fire

[djAdvocate]

Sept 24, 2012 10:20:29 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...please don't get yourself a time out, Tony... I, too, dislike when mods get personal as posters but are still protected from censure since they're mods... but them's the playground rules... and you'd be missed from the sandbox, imo...

posters get personal all the time, Been. it is only a problem when it degenerates into offensive and insulting language, imo.

[deziloooooo]

Sept 24, 2012 8:41:22 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

So,10 pages of nothing, and we still have not decided whether the cartoonist should receive protection?
Or was that decided on page one?Dezi wanted everyone who disagreed with the liberals to go away.........
Polldancer dislikes (or does not trust?) religion, but does not agreeto bring Islam bombers who follow the Koran to justice........
mmhmm refuses to teach rocks..........BUTknows how peaceful the citizens in the ME are...........

I will say one thing.
The cartoonist does have a death wish.........

I did ??

"Take off your pompous hat, go back to sleep, and stop telling me what I know and what I do not. "

said publickly to a moderator...there is disagreeemnt and then there is just plain rudeness..and to do so so publickly.....tsk, tsk.

Done publickly and no public apology for over stepping the lines...not nice IMHO. Just a thought.

From the C of C...

"Public "mod bashing", defined here as complaints made in threads regarding how a mod does (or doesn't) do their job, will not be continued. This board is not here to be a complaint forum. If you have a concern, you may PM the mod of your choice for that board. Alternatively, you may PM myself, or email me at my board email address: [e-mail]. Preference is that you work with your board mods first. "

as said , a public apology would not be out of line IMHO.

[mmhmm]

Sept 24, 2012 10:53:29 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 24, 2012 10:44:04 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

... However, neither of us actually calls that shot. If moonbeam believes it should not have been moved, she'll let dem know.

Don't recall a recent moonbeam sighting. We have been remiss in our problem causing.

;D Actually, you're right, billis. Folks on the P&M board, for the most part, have been doing great! Very little trouble from our neck of the woods these days.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Sept 24, 2012 11:00:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 24, 2012 10:20:29 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...please don't get yourself a time out, Tony... I, too, dislike when mods get personal as posters but are still protected from censure since they're mods... but them's the playground rules... and you'd be missed from the sandbox, imo...

posters get personal all the time, Been. it is only a problem when it degenerates into offensive and insulting language, imo.

...true... and mods, posting as posters, get personal, too... that tit4tat is regulated a bit more by the CoC... considering that one man's dig is another man's killshot, it's subjective what earns a smack down from above, right? and I shouldn't say any more than that for fear of sounding like I'm critiquing the moderation around here, which is not my intent...

[mmhmm]

Sept 24, 2012 11:20:54 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Sept 24, 2012 11:00:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

posters get personal all the time, Been. it is only a problem when it degenerates into offensive and insulting language, imo.

...true... and mods, posting as posters, get personal, too... that tit4tat is regulated a bit more by the CoC... considering that one man's dig is another man's killshot, it's subjective what earns a smack down from above, right? and I shouldn't say any more than that for fear of sounding like I'm critiquing the moderation around here, which is not my intent...

When a mod is posting as a poster, that mod IS a poster, and no more.

While moderating will, by its very nature, always be somewhat subjective, we counter that by discussing decisions "behind the scenes". If a post is to be removed, that post is often Reported by the moderator (unless the reason for deletion is a blatant disregard for the CoC and/or ToS) and discussed on the thread created by the Report. Other mods, and moonbeam, weigh in. That way, we avoid too much subjectivity to the greatest degree we can. Same is true of any potential discipline being considered for a given poster. That's not done by any one person without input from others, including moonbeam.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 24, 2012 10:34:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Any desire to continue the discussion?

I, for one, am still 'game', if you or others want to continue to pursue some of this to a more useful end...

I'll be in-and-out of the house for the next couple of days and may be a bit sluggish with my responses but you can count me in, if that appeals to you and various others...

Proceed at your discretion...

[TonyTiger]

Sept 24, 2012 11:02:28 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

"..."

I wonder if I can find an emoticon on the Internet indicative of ass-kissing, or teacher's-pet apple polishing... ;D

----- edit/add -----

Never mind...

Found one...

[b2r]

I ask unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks...

[billisonboard]

Sept 24, 2012 10:59:43 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Sept 24, 2012 10:34:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Any desire to continue the discussion?

...well, you said we're toast ... so you already nailed it on discussing their endgame, right?

Well, that wasn't the exact word I used. That word implies "finished". Once one is "toasted", they can't be "re-toasted". The word I used is one that allows for repeated ..., well, adventures.

[zipity]

I am simply unable to follow it as closely as one might hope, due to the impracticality of various aspects of that example.

Christians have followed that example in the face of persecution from the Jews, Romans and many others down through the ages. Your view on its impracticality only speaks to the depth of your own belief in Christian teachings.

If you want to toss in the towel before the next round has even begun, that's your right, go forth and exercise it.

I'm not fighting with Islam so have no towel to throw in. My fight is with extremists, religious or secular, extremists have and will always fill out the ranks of every terrorist organization. They're the ones who always have a cause to kill for and they come in all variations of religious belief and nationality.

I'll take a pass on that approach, if it's OK with you - and even if it's not OK with you.

If you feel you need to carry on the violence then do so. Turning the other cheek isn't an easy thing to do.
You don't see Muslims across the world rioting? There have been Muslim riots in the Middle East, across North Africa, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and stretching all the way to southeast Asia and Indonesia. I suggest you look again.

There are approximately 1.6 billion Muslims on this planet, the number taking part in violent riots due to the video is a fraction well below 1 percent. Many may know of this video but only a small number have been moved to do anything about it. Of course when a person goes looking for an enemy its usually pretty easy to find one.

But... but... but... we're dealing with the Religion of Peace, yes?

So you keep saying. I still say we are dealing with extremists and not just Muslim extremists. As for Islam being used to justify violence more than other religions, you might want to take into account who is actually pointing at them making that accusation. Is it the Christian producer of a video designed to attack their religion? Is it the Christian minister leading a Koran burning for his parishioners? Personally I keep seeing extremists looking to provoke a reaction and more extremists pointing at the reaction as a justification.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 25, 2012 1:17:05 GMT -5 zipity said:

I am simply unable to follow it as closely as one might hope, due to the impracticality of various aspects of that example.

Christians have followed that example in the face of persecution from the Jews, Romans and many others down through the ages. Your view on its impracticality only speaks to the depth of your own belief in Christian teachings.

I agree and disagree.

I disagree insofar as I was raised on such precepts throughout my childhood and still revere them as an Ideal or Gold Standard.

I agree insofar as I am not willing to allow the admiration of such precepts to prevent me from defending myself and my people.

If you want to toss in the towel before the next round has even begun, that's your right, go forth and exercise it.

I'm not fighting with Islam so have no towel to throw in. My fight is with extremists, religious or secular, extremists have and will always fill out the ranks of every terrorist organization. They're the ones who always have a cause to kill for and they come in all variations of religious belief and nationality.

I'm not fighting with Islam either.

But I have a realistic grasp of the threat-vector and the nature of the threat, and the historic and canonical and militant and societal foundations and modern-day manifestations of the threat. I participate in portraying the threat in cold, hard, realistic terms, and discussing it in some detail, insofar as my own poor talents and abilities will permit.

I, for one, choose to remain mindful of the danger and its source and not to delude myself that its source is no better nor worse than any other belief system, out of an admirable but suicidal commitment to an egalitarian perspective on belief systems that is neither reciprocated nor realistic in light of its foundations and precepts and history and manifestations and its vulnerability to misuse and the practices and behaviors of its adherents.

I'll take a pass on that approach, if it's OK with you - and even if it's not OK with you.

If you feel you need to carry on the violence then do so. Turning the other cheek isn't an easy thing to do.

You're right. Turning the other cheek isn't easy. And sometimes it's downright suicidal. I'm sure that Jesus of Nazareth would not have approved of us targeting al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan after al-Qaeda killed 3,000 innocent fellow citizens, but that did not stop us from doing just that.

I'm not talking about overstaying in Afghanistan nor our unjustified assault on Iraq - merely our early operations in Afghanistan. I'm fairly certain that Jesus would not even have approved of that, but we did it anyway, and I supported that.

You don't see Muslims across the world rioting? There have been Muslim riots in the Middle East, across North Africa, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and stretching all the way to southeast Asia and Indonesia. I suggest you look again.

There are approximately 1.6 billion Muslims on this planet, the number taking part in violent riots due to the video is a fraction well below 1 percent. Many may know of this video but only a small number have been moved to do anything about it. Of course when a person goes looking for an enemy its usually pretty easy to find one.

And there are 2.3 billion Christians on this planet, but you don't see them rioting worldwide when Jesus or any of the rest of the cast of the Christian story are insulted in a piece of artwork or a movie or whatnot.

"Turn the other cheek" is NOT a dominant precept in Islam, as it is in the New Testament.

Quite the contrary.

Islam is a blood-soaked belief system.

What separates it from Christianity (which has its own bloody history) is that the FOUNDER of Islam gave PERMISSION to Believers to engage in War and Violence in both the name of God AND to advance the Cause of the Faith, whereas Jesus did not.

This is a deadly and damning and ultimate difference, and can be easily expanded upon.

But... but... but... we're dealing with the Religion of Peace, yes?

So you keep saying. I still say we are dealing with extremists and not just Muslim extremists.

Respectfully, I believe that you are deluding yourself, in this matter, but that's just a matter of personal opinion, and I mean nothing personally insulting when I say that.

As for Islam being used to justify violence more than other religions, you might want to take into account who is actually pointing at them making that accusation. Is it the Christian producer of a video designed to attack their religion? Is it the Christian minister leading a Koran burning for his parishioners?

When I talk about Islam being a violence-justifying belief system, I'm not talking about the Incident du Jour - the Event of the Day - I'm talking about the embedded permissions to wage war and the embedded permissions to commit violence that may be found saturating the sacred texts of Islam - scattered front to back.

The poking-of-the-beehive-with-a-stick that we see going on at the moment merely reinforces the idea that this so-called Religion of Peace contains embedded deep within its foundation the seeds of war and violence in the name of God and in the defense of or the advancing of The Faith and that these seeds are regularly and routinely and speedily brought to fruition on a hair-trigger by any street-corner mullah or government with an axe to grind or a political agenda to advance or maintain.

We are dealing with a thing that is part religious belief system and part nihilistic militancy device and part global domination ideal and part political mechanism and part barrier and defense and assistance pact against all who lie outside the membership.

That is a far different animal than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc., in their modern-day outlook, practices and capabilities.

Treating this 'different animal' in the same way that one treats others is a recipe for disaster.

Personally I keep seeing extremists looking to provoke a reaction and more extremists pointing at the reaction as a justification.

I agree with you, with respect to the Q'uran burning and the movie to which you refer.

But I submit that the Christian-side extremists do so because they seek to illustrate the violent nature of their opposites.

And they are succeeding, albeit not without some very considerable cost.

They are succeeding because they understand how easy it is for Muslim spiritual and secular leaders to manipulate their Sheeple into committing violence using the tools that Islam provides.

And, while we are condemning the extremism on the Western side of the fence that so coldly and callously provoked such a reaction, we should not lose sight of just how easy it was to trigger such violence and just how very predictable it was.

This large-scale ease-of-provocation and predictability - itself - should be a lesson that we examine, evaluate and remember.

[billisonboard]

Sept 25, 2012 9:15:59 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

...

This large-scale ease-of-provocation and predictability - itself - should be a lesson that we examine, evaluate and remember.

Does current practice by our government show that it hasn't been?

Just as pharmaceutical companies do not include a reminder in their commercials that the Catholic Church does not support use of their products, our government officials should not go out of their way to point out the elements of Islam that we wish weren't there.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 25, 2012 10:25:08 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 25, 2012 9:15:59 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

...

This large-scale ease-of-provocation and predictability - itself - should be a lesson that we examine, evaluate and remember.

Does current practice by our government show that it hasn't been?

No.

Did you infer otherwise?

Just as pharmaceutical companies do not include a reminder in their commercials that the Catholic Church does not support use of their products, our government officials should not go out of their way to point out the elements of Islam that we wish weren't there.

Agreed.

[billisonboard]

Sept 25, 2012 10:39:11 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 25, 2012 10:25:08 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Does current practice by our government show that it hasn't been?

No.

Did you infer otherwise?

...

I don't see what would change if we do what you suggest we need to do. Therefore, I don't see how you know it hasn't been. I would be interested in hearing it if you have an example of what change would take place.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 25, 2012 10:57:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 25, 2012 10:39:11 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

No.

Did you infer otherwise?

...

I don't see what would change if we do what you suggest we need to do. Therefore, I don't see how you know it hasn't been. I would be interested in hearing it if you have an example of what change would take place.

Bill, personally, I am not seeking change, even if the efforts of individuals could prove that decisive in such a context.

I merely seek to do my own small part to keep the vector and the nature of the threat on our collective scope and to counterpoint those who hold that we are merely dealing with another belief system that is no different than any other.

I merely seek to contribute to a sense of need for vigilance and realism and to contribute to a stiffening of resolve to recognize and meet the threat when it manifests time and again.

[billisonboard]

Sept 25, 2012 11:17:04 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 25, 2012 10:57:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I don't see what would change if we do what you suggest we need to do. Therefore, I don't see how you know it hasn't been. I would be interested in hearing it if you have an example of what change would take place.

Bill, personally, I am not seeking change, even if the efforts of individuals could prove that decisive in such a context.

I merely seek to do my own small part to keep the vector and the nature of the threat on our collective scope and to counterpoint those who hold that we are merely dealing with another belief system that is no different than any other.

I merely seek to contribute to a sense of need for vigilance and realism and to contribute to a stiffening of resolve to recognize and meet the threat when it manifests time and again.

I think we are doing fine with our vigilance and no problem with our resolve in meeting the threats as they occur.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 25, 2012 11:26:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

"...I think we are doing fine with our vigilance and no problem with our resolve in meeting the threats as they occur."

Agreed. Let's keep it that way.

[zipity]

I agree insofar as I am not willing to allow the admiration of such precepts to prevent me from defending myself and my people.

Very interesting thought and very relevant to the discussion but I'll return to that in a bit.

But I have a realistic grasp of the threat-vector and the nature of the threat, and the historic and canonical and militant and societal foundations and modern-day manifestations of the threat.

I respectfully disagree, I'm not sure you understand the historic foundation of the threat or the part you play in how it manifests itself today, more on that later also.

You're right. Turning the other cheek isn't easy. And sometimes it's downright suicidal. I'm sure that Jesus of Nazareth would not have approved of us targeting al-Qaeda

I agree and would suggest that that was due to the times in which Jesus lived. After his death his followers were persecuted and many slaughtered. Of course he wasn't there to see it but what if he had been. How do you think history might have changed if the followers of Jesus were slaughter while he was alive. What if their homes were burned, their possessions stolen and their wives/children raped and killed. What if Jesus had been driven from his homeland and forced to flee to save his life and the lives of his followers. It's quite possible that such events would have radically changed the teachings in the new testament.

And there are 2.3 billion Christians on this planet, but you don't see them rioting worldwide when Jesus or any of the rest of the cast of the Christian story are insulted in a piece of artwork or a movie or whatnot.

"Turn the other cheek" is NOT a dominant precept in Islam, as it is in the New Testament.

Most Christians are a lot looser in their following of the commandments. Today the majority of Christians look at their religion as something they do on Sunday. The old testament is something that's nice to know and best taken with a grain of salt. Of course if you looked at Christians a few hundred years ago your view of Christianity a bit different than it is today. When the pilgrims landed here the church was the center of society. Cross the clergy, break any of the commandments and you'd quickly find yourself in jail or expelled from the community. As for turning the other cheek, you are right, not a concept Islam promoted heavily in Islamic teachings because as you said it's "sometimes it's downright suicidal". Whereas you are "not willing to allow the admiration of such precepts to prevent me from defending myself and my people", neigher are Muslims but they take that concept one step further and defend their religion as if it was their own life or family.

I'm talking about the embedded permissions to wage war and the embedded permissions to commit violence that may be found saturating the sacred texts of Islam - scattered front to back.
merely reinforces the idea that this so-called Religion of Peace contains embedded deep within its foundation the seeds of war and violence in the name of God and in the defense of or the advancing of The Faith and that these seeds are regularly and routinely and speedily brought to fruition on a hair-trigger by any street-corner mullah or government with an axe to grind or a political agenda to advance or maintain.

Although I agree with what you say here I believe that this: "We are dealing with a thing that is part religious belief system and part nihilistic militancy device and part global domination ideal" is off track. I don't believe global domination is as dominate as is the desire to better their lives and the lives of their families. Muslims have moved around the globe just like members of every other religion, look at Muslims here in the US. Treat Muslims fair, don't insult their religion or prophet and you might be surprised how well you can get along with them.

That is a far different animal than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc., in their modern-day outlook, practices and capabilities.
Again I disagree, in the context you mention all of these religions have at one time or another banded together to defend themselves from non-believers. They've moved around the globe to find a better safer life. Yes Muslim views are different from views of other religions but most religions differ from other religions in numerous ways.

we should not lose sight of just how easy it was to trigger such violence and just how very predictable it was

We should also not lose sight of the educational level of the average Muslim protesting these incident dujours. The majority of Muslims live in extreme poverty, educated in institutions that focus on the history and teachings of their faith to the exclusion of just about everything else.

It's easy to see that you don't believe Islam is the religion of peace. Question, have you ever read the teachings of Mohammad while he was in Mecca. If not you should. He was actually criticized by some of his followers for sounding very Christ like in his teachings. In Mecca he was very tollerant of Christians and Jews. Of course then his followers in Mecca were slaughtered by "non-believers". Attempts were made on Mohammad's life forcing him to flee to Medina. If you ever take the time to read some of his teachings from Mecca, compare those to his teachings in Medina. The difference is amazing. His Christ like teachings turn into teachings of death and survival. Killing those who persecuted Muslims was a reaction to what had happened. I'm not going to try to defend his position but if you are going to see all Muslims as a threat you should first understand their history. Insult their religion, produce what they consider to be false idols in videos, cartoons and pictures and realize that THEY feel threatened by you. You (metaphorically speaking) become no different than those who slaughter the early followers in Mecca. Understanding their history I've got to wonder why it's so important for some to prove, yet again, that Muslims feel threatened and will react when poked with a stick.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

I, for one, choose to remain mindful of the danger and its source and not to delude myself that its source is no better nor worse than any other belief system, out of an admirable but suicidal commitment to an egalitarian perspective on belief systems that is neither reciprocated nor realistic in light of its foundations and precepts and history and manifestations and its vulnerability to misuse and the practices and behaviors of its adherents.

Probably a good idea. Somethings for all to consider.. Stay .

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Only problem for Iran and their plans is of course...

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[egginbonce]

Sept 24, 2012 10:04:48 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

You might want to reconsider insulting your "colleagues", Tony. Some of those "colleagues" are a lot more intelligent, and more informed than you are. We've got a lot of posters here. Some agree with you and some don't. Those who don't aren't necessarily "coupon-clipping and cute-kitten-posting" types. You, on the other hand, aren't as impressive to everyone as you are to yourself.

This thread morphed into a discussion of religion, as dem pointed out. I agree with him it belongs here. The "board's operators" make decisions with regard to the board's operations. You do not, and you do not decide why such decisions are made. You don't have access to that information.

Yeah,Tony.pipe down.....us cute kitten posters have hidden depths; I can even do pics of penguins, for example......................so ,in no more than a page ofA4, describe quantum theory,using only mathematical symbols.OK- are you ready?....................GO!

[egginbonce]

Hi Ham!...................that told Tony, didnt it?

[egginbonce]

mundi est stupenda locus........................'were all in a stupid place'..............................yayyyy........I'm a Latin scholar.....................................

[egginbonce]

wheres evrybody gone?

[billisonboard]

Italy

[TonyTiger]

Wisconsin...

[TonyTiger]

Sept 27, 2012 10:55:21 GMT -5 egginbonce said:

mundi est stupenda locus........................'were all in a stupid place'..............................yayyyy........I'm a Latin scholar.....................................

Or alternatively, try...

"The world is an amazing place" ...

...I mean, if that's OK with you, Mister Wizard...

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Hey Eggy! Good to see ya around. Tony knows what's up..

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The West African state of Mali has agreed to host a regional military deployment aimed at dislodging radical Islamists in control in the north.

[egginbonce]

Sept 27, 2012 18:41:49 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 27, 2012 10:55:21 GMT -5 egginbonce said:

mundi est stupenda locus........................'were all in a stupid place'..............................yayyyy........I'm a Latin scholar.....................................

Or alternatively, try...

"The world is an amazing place" ...

...I mean, if that's OK with you, Mister Wizard...

ahhhh.Tony.I dont know nuthin...............................(you dont say,eggy!)

[egginbonce]

The world is an amazing place" ...

Sorry,Tony-gotta ask this:
Compared with what?.................now THATS profound,innit................go on.admit it................................

[egginbonce]

Ham...you know Trev, dont you?.well I want to share a confidence with you.............shhhhhh, but I dont think he's a Christian at all,(and I'm only half convinced that you are)shhhh.dont tell 'im I said so.................