Pouring Gasoline on the Muslim Fire

[cereb]

Sept 23, 2012 19:17:51 GMT -5 b2r said:

Don't go wasting too much brain power there B2, I'll bet you still gotta figure out what to have for breakfast tomorrow.

[cereb]

"You ignored my post. You said the violence was socially acceptable. I asked why in a deeply Islamic society Islam does not deserve some of the blame? "


No, I didn't ignore it, I think I missed it. Give me a moment and I will give you an answer.


Actually, give me a couple minutes.

[cereb]

Crap. This is going to take awhile. I'm on call, and I just got a call.

[billisonboard]

Sept 23, 2012 19:26:49 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

.... Appease your kid when he throws a tantrum because he doesnt get candy at the check out line. See what happens next time he wants something

Bomb his room and see what the response is.

[Deleted]

Sept 23, 2012 19:33:07 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 23, 2012 19:26:49 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

.... Appease your kid when he throws a tantrum because he doesnt get candy at the check out line. See what happens next time he wants something

Bomb his room and see what the response is.

K again.

[Deleted]

So you agree that Christianity deserves blame for Rwanda...

[weltschmerz]

Really, b2r? We're going there? We can do this all day. And night.

[deziloooooo]

Sept 23, 2012 12:46:16 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

Sept 23, 2012 12:33:59 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

That's precisely what I'm saying. My knowledge of Islam comes from living amongst Islamic peoples for over twenty years, Cretinous, and maintaining contact with friends made over the years.

That seems like a shallow understanding. You have no historical understanding of Islam? I mean beyond 20 years? You have no understanding of how the Taliban fits in with modern Islam? Or have you met Taliban? You have no understanding of what the rioters in Tony's picture might be mad about? Other then what your Muslim friends tell you?


I know Hajeeb who works at the pizza place, all Muslims must be like him.

"You have no historical understanding of Islam?"

You do?? Can you mention/list some of your credentials, your expertise..field of study, experience..?

[zipity]

Tigers aren't rationale people are.

You mean like the person who poked the tiger with the stick?

Appease your kid when he throws a tantrum because he doesn't get candy at the check out line. See what happens next time he wants something

Most parents understand their kid's behavior patterns, if there's a known problem rational parents won't bring the kid into the candy store. Why tempt fate when you know there's an issue?

[Deleted]

Not me. I like to put a big old bowl of Hershy's chocolate on the floor and make the kids sit cross legged around it but don't let them touch... If they are very good, I might let them choose one piece... if they are very, very good, and I'm feeling generous....

[TonyTiger]

Sept 23, 2012 19:33:07 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

"Bomb his room and see what the response is."

They already tried that once, Bill... three times in one day, as a matter of fact...







I hear they weren't too keen on our response...

[billisonboard]

Sept 23, 2012 20:06:58 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

...

I hear they weren't too keen on our response...

Who are they?

[TonyTiger]

Sept 23, 2012 19:13:48 GMT -5 zipity said:

"...I wonder if someone could produce an example of a Muslim producing a video or cartoon that disrespects Muhammad?..."

I wonder if someone could produce a video of global violent reaction on the part of Christendom or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism - in reaction to an insulting media blurb - which results in the killing of the Ambassador of the country in which the material originated?

"...Is there any question what would happen if you were to find a tiger in the wild an poke it with a stick?..."

But we're not talking about a tiger here... we're talking about The Religion of Peace, are we not? ;D

"...Imagine the person who would blame the tiger and profess that the tiger's belief system was flawed..."

The Founder of Christianity would say "Turn the other cheek".

The Founder of Islam would say "Slay the enemies of Islam".

Huge frickkin' difference... let's not kid ourselves here.

"...Imagine that same person then taking issue with other people who might say 'WTF, what do you expect to happen when you poke a tiger with a stick'..."

I expect a jungle animal to lash out blindly and unthinkingly.

I expect the Religion of Peace to live up to its so-called label.

Unless, it is NOT the Religion of Peace, after all.

Unless its foundational texts and teachings are saturated with bloodlust and a bloody history and which permit it to go off on a hair-trigger and commit violence upon one's fellow Man.

"...Yet the person who poked the tiger and his apologists would take issue with that not understanding why no one but they can understand that it's all the tiger's fault..."

This isn't about tiger-poking (and I think we've let enough fresh air into that canard already)...

This is about freedom of speech and not kowtowing to foreign powers and belief systems because they're still mired somewhere between the 7th and the 13th Centuries...

"...Maybe this isn't a problem of Islam but a problem of the person who just poked Islam with a stick. (or video)"

Or maybe it IS a problem with a belief system (Islam) which allows its adherents to engage in such violent activity - justified and rationalized so conveniently by their own Founder, embedded deeply and repeatedly within their sacred texts...

Tell an unthinking primitive that it's OK to kill in the name of God A or B or C, and he will...

Fail to recognize that fact of life, or fail to recognize belief systems for their vulnerabilities to being used in just such a fashion, and you drift further and further from reality, taking some percentage of folks with you, who so desperately want to cling to illusions of harmlessness, when the potential for harm is there for all but the blindest to see...

[Deleted]

Message deleted by mmhmm. Quoting scripture is not allowed in P&M. It doesn't matter whose scripture it is. Thanks.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 23, 2012 20:12:13 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

"...Tony's side makes sense, at least to me."

Don't say that - you could do yourself an injury around here... ;D

I do nothing more than point out that the world is a hard ol' place in which Smurfs do NOT rule and I encourage some of the more naive amongst us to come to grips with the idea that not all religions are created equal and that some are far more prone to being utilized as a rationale for violence and evil than others in our present age...

But there is a certain type of person who will continue to keep his head under the sand until the bad guys come to chop it off for him...

Although there is great danger in being (or listening to) an Alarmist - especially a False Alarmist - there is an equal, if not even greater, danger of listening to the Neville Chamberlain types who are so easily and gullibly misled because they are good people who cannot bring themselves to look harshly and judgmentally at other people who wish death upon them...

It's part of the human experience, and the fate of men, that they forget, and revert to a Pacifist mentality from which they cannot be shaken, regardless of the nature or proximity or severity of the threat...

But these are decisions that each one of us must reach on their own, in the recesses of their own minds and their own hearts, without fear of rdicule or censure, or even, bravely, in spite of it...

[TonyTiger]

Sept 23, 2012 20:26:22 GMT -5 oped said:

-meet the evil with good behavior
Quran 23:96
[96] Repel evil with that which is better. We are Best-Acquainted with the things they utter.

-love ur enemy
Quran 41:34
[34] The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better then verily he, between whom and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend.

If you want to get into a pi$$ing match about the number of times that the Founder of Islam exhorted his followers to bloody war, or how many times he gave examples and permissions to his followers, to undertake war, or to commit violence, upon nonbelievers, or merely to advance the cause of Islam, well...

Perhaps that might best be done as a Religion thread?

I'm guessing that you would be in for a long brawl, and that you could not count all the major iterations on such a theme easily...

[Deleted]

We would also be doing the bible as well I assume?

[TonyTiger]

Sept 23, 2012 20:40:52 GMT -5 oped said:

We would also be doing the bible as well I assume?

That's fair game, so long as you acknowledge that any teachings of Jesus of Nazareth found in the New Testament are traditionally considered by Christianity as superceding anything found to the contrary in the inherited Old Testament.

And, when you take into account Jesus' admonitions to "Love Thy Neighbor" and "Turn the Other Cheek", well, that doesn't leave much room for the violence found in the older document to be used to rationalize killing in the name of God.

Oh, and, let's not forget...

We'll need to filter for usages of such permissions-to-commit-violence in the Christian texts in the context of whether they are still operative and dominant as guiding dogma for the governments of the countries in which their adherents reside...

Versus filtering for usages of such permissions-to-commit-violence in the Islamic texts in the context of whether they are still operative and dominant as guiding dogma for the governments of the countries in which their adherents reside...

We will need to take both Text Content and Modern Applicability into account, as well, in order to produce a truly realistic picture... ;D

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Sept 23, 2012 20:22:21 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

This isn't about tiger-poking

...ironically enough, I think this is exactly about tiger poking... posters have been poking at you throughout the thread... get it?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Sept 23, 2012 20:12:13 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

I started to argue tony's side because no one was refuting it very well

...agreed...

[TonyTiger]

Sept 23, 2012 21:05:39 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

"...this is exactly about tiger poking..."

Oh, that... of course... that's a gimme...

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 15:00:27 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

As to an example of the above, do you have an Inflammatory Statement in mind on the part of our Government, for our context?

not really, no. so, what i am saying is that i took something which is essentially a foreign policy position and applied it to rhetoric, and i think that i was reaching.

Yet when we act in a somewhat restrained manner for months or years and continue to be subjected to the same levels of vitriol and attack regardless of that restraint, well, you eventually run up against Restraint Exhaustion, it would seem; coming to the sad and anger-engendering realization that it was all one-sided and largely for nothing; that no good came of it, despite the best of intentions, as that Brit video on Page 1 so clearly outlined.

i don't think we should be fighting these guys in the gutter. i think there is a way to undermine their ability to recruit. it starts by not feeding the evil empire rhetoric- and in THIS respect, i really have to hand it to Obama. he doesn't use inflammatory language hardly ever. his POLICIES maybe the shits, but he doesn't give these clerics much fodder for their sermons./

Our own particular government usually and eventually embraces whatever sentiments that a majority of its populace embrace, although that's not always the case, and although there are oftentimes considerable time-delays between the advent of a sentiment and its realization through the organs of government.

i disagree strongly. if you survey average Americans you will find that they are pacifist. this is a trend that has persisted for CENTURIES in the US. candidly, i think that most people are that way. what they want is to have a safe place to live, work and grow old. war rather interferes with that. no, it is nation states that drive public opinion, not the other way around. it has been said that the amount of harm nations do is roughly proportional to how powerful they are. i think that is largely true in our case. but i think it has little to do with what people want.

There are those who refuse to recognize the existence of a considerable threat vector...

There are the pacifiers and appeasers who would not harm a fly and who will not stand up for themselves under any circumstances...

There are those who perceive a threat but are uncertain as to the nature of the extent or degree of the threat and who oftentimes suffer from Analysis Paralysis until the game is nearly played-out...

There are those who just don't care or who are too busy trying to live their lives to be bothered with contemplating the Barbarians at the Gates...

There are those who perceive a threat but lack the backbone to stand up for themselves or their country or culture or society...

There are those who will act, and forcibly if need be, but wish to be seen as Good Guys and who will wait until attacked before bringing force to bear, which oftentimes poses a grave danger when we are attacked unexpectedly...

There are those who will act proactively and premptorily to strike out at a potential threat-vector before it can harm us...

There are those who are so full of hatred and those for whom any convenient and nearby target will do, that they will flatten a city or a country or a people with carpet-bombing or nuclear weapons merely because they exist and offend the sensibilities...

And all manner of grey between these various shades of black and white...

----------

Both ends of that spectrum are more dangerous than the middle elements, in my opinion...



And many of us - even here - have very different ideas of what constitutes a 'bad idea' in the context of Islamic Extremism...

"...to a degree, i expect more of my countrymen than to behave like animals..."

And well you should, with respect to us initiating an animal-like aggression or an unthinking response to one...

I submit, however, that I expect more of my countrymen, than to lie down and take a bullet in the back of the head - metaporically speaking - when challenged by a bully system that is on the mend and looking to rebuild and flex its muscles after a long hiatus under the heel of their former colonial masters.

i have a lot of opinions on the latter part of this post, Tony. but i really don't think radical Islam is a serious threat to us in the US. i could go on and on about all of this, but it is pointless. i know we disagree, and that is fine. we can disagree politely. i am not here to brush your fur backwards, and i can't really take the time to do it, even if i were.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 15:06:05 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 23, 2012 15:03:36 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

"...Reading the Qu'ran helped immensely."

Agreed... I went out to the local Barnes & Noble chain bookstore and picked up a copy and read it cover-to-cover and reflected on it for weeks afterwards... having purchased my copy on September 12, 2011... in pursuit of the old maxim: Know Thine Enemy.

i admire this about you, Tony. i really do. that is why i don't feel any urge to step on your neck, even when we disagree.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 15:13:10 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I haven't discussed terrorists, Cretinous. I've discussed Muslims. The two are not necessarily synonymous to thinking people. If the discussion is to be about terrorists, it needs to be about terrorists. Terrorists come from all faiths.

absolutely true. historically, terrorism is not an Islamic phenomena.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 15:17:01 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 23, 2012 15:13:10 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I haven't discussed terrorists, Cretinous. I've discussed Muslims. The two are not necessarily synonymous to thinking people. If the discussion is to be about terrorists, it needs to be about terrorists. Terrorists come from all faiths.

Indeed, they do...

Care to drum-up the demographics on the religious backgrounds of terrorists associated with all major religiously-focused or religion-linked terror incidents of the past couple of decades?

i did this on another thread. prior to 911, the vast majority of suicide terrorism was performed by the Marxist/Hindu Tamil Tigers. since that time, it has indeed mostly been Muslim. but it would be well to point out that since suicide terrorism is largely stimulated by a perceived foreign invasion, and since TWO Muslim nations have been invaded since 2002 by Western Democracies, this does follow pattern.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 17:33:52 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 23, 2012 17:16:42 GMT -5 cereb said:

Terrorism isn't about Islam, Christianity or any other religion. You are looking at this through the lens of religion. You need to put on a different pair of glasses for this one.

And that is where so many people misdirect their energies in well-intentioned attempts to deflect attention away from the Primary Cause...

In truth, this is not about Terrorism...

In truth, this is about a Clash of Cultures...

you had me up until here. this is, in fact, precisely what it is about. but it is also about invasion by Western Democracies.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 17:43:10 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 23, 2012 17:38:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Hell, most of it isn't "Terror" at all. It is street protests. It is assassinations. It is warfare. None of which are "Terror".

Fine...

I was merely addressing Cereb's focus upon terror...

We can simply make that: Aggression in the Name of Religion, rather than Terror...

religion isn't even a necessary element in terrorism, but it does help motivate terrorists. in the case of the Tamil Tigers, their TARGETS are primarily Muslims. they, themselves are mostly Hindu. the REASON they target the Muslims is because they are perceived as alien invaders, and usurpers of sovereignty. this is precisely the same fuel that causes the MidEast to burn with hatred for the West. but it is not an Islam -vs- Christianity thing. they would do the same thing if we were Hindu (as they do in Pakistan) or Jewish (as they do in Palestine).

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 18:18:48 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 23, 2012 18:10:31 GMT -5 cereb said:

"...Think 'Globalization'... "

You DO have a sufficient grasp on reality to understand that in much of The West, folks have become bone-weary of listening to the Islam-Apologists amongst us, making excuses for these savage acts, yes?

Tony, i am sorry, but i can't accept what i am doing as Islamic apologism. rather, it is precisely what you referred to earlier as "knowing your enemy". this focus to the point of obsession with Islam is way off target. it will NOT help us win the battle against suicide terrorism. THAT is my primary concern.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 18:27:19 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly. Some gotta hate to the moment they die.