America was attacked again on 9-11

[Spellbound454]

A link to a lightweight Wiki article on the subject of Muslim oppression of Coptic Christians in Egypt...

Sure...There is no doubt that the Coptics have suffered since the Arab Spring.

...but a film which wants to portray Islam as senseless and violent.
Makes people behave senselessly...and violently. How stupid is that?

Still the US government are taking comfort in the banners that went up in Bengharzi saying that this action does not represent the population.
Though.....Its might be a lot better if more high profile people stood up to be counted.

Hilary says the people did not want to exchange tyranny for a mob.

Morsi is starting to show his colours....He wants the film maker prosecuted but glosses over the fact that his people are behaving like animals.

I'm not sure about US drones over Libya though...it might make things worse.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 14:29:01 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

A link to a lightweight Wiki article on the subject of Muslim oppression of Coptic Christians in Egypt...

Sure...There is no doubt that the Coptics have suffered since the Arab Spring.

...but a film which wants to portray Islam as senseless and violent.
Makes people behave senselessly...and violently. How stupid is that?

What I find most disturbing is that the behaviors we see so rampant and widepread in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Sudan and the rest, seem to be proving that point from the film far better than the wildest dreams of the filmaker might have conjured-up.

As someone who regularly sounds the warning klaxon about the underlying violence embedded within both Islam and its offspring cultures and philosophies and mindset, seeing the behavior of those people actually reinforcing or proving that particular point of the film, I feel vindicated, troubled and deeply saddened.

As much as I articulate the point over time - here and elsewhere - I'm always strangely saddened to be proven more right than wrong in such matters - it doesn't sit well with me - but the truth is the truth - and I perceive it to be the 10,000 lb elephant in the room that The West cannot afford to ignore for much longer.

"...Still the US government are taking comfort in the banners that went up in Bengharzi saying that this action does not represent the population..."

I'm not sure whether that is sham-acting or naivte or misguided or genuine-based-upon-insider-knowledge, but I'm certainly hoping to learn more about what's been happening on the Arab / Muslim side of the fence, if-and-when that becomes possible...

"...Though.....Its might be a lot better if more high profile people stood up to be counted..."

That would put them in harms' way with respect to The Muslim Brotherhood, or al-Qaeda, or the Taliban, or the theocratic kooks in Tehran, or Mullah Billy-Jo-Bob-Yussef on the streetcorner who might be packing a gun under his robes.

"...Hilary says the people did not want to exchange tyranny for a mob."

State (Foreign Ministry) pidgeon-speak...?

"...Morsi is starting to show his colours....He wants the film maker prosecuted but glosses over the fact that his people are behaving like animals..."

Of course.

I don't think anybody with half-a-brain believed for one second that his sudden detachment from the Muslim Brotherhood was gonna last - for real and in practice - for more than 5 minutes after he was sworn-in as the new President...

"...drones...Libya..."

Rather like shutting the barn door after the horses have bolted, I expect...

[weltschmerz]

My God, but that Paul Ryan is a moron. From his speech at the Values Summit...

All of us are watching events closely, but we know who America is dealing with in these attacks. They are extremists who operate by violence and intimidation. And the least equivocation or mixed signal only makes them bolder.Read more: www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81222.html#ixzz26TXp8TnY

Mixed signal? Are you kidding me? Portraying their Prophet as a violent buffoon, chowing down on pork ribs and hitting women, then getting oral sex from them is a mixed signal? Maybe they just misinterpreted the film? Maybe the film-makers meant it in a good way, but were misunderstood?

[Deleted]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way trying to justify what has been happening in the past few days…it is deplorable. Nor do I think Ed Husain , is. It is a matter of trying to understand why some people in some of these countries can so easily be manipulated and whipped into a violent frenzy. I think his analysis is fairly sound. Though I believe he doesn’t give enough weight to religious indoctrination as a contributing factor.

It would seem that the concepts of freedom of speech and tolerance are not won overnight.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 14:55:52 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

My God, but that Paul Ryan is a moron. From his speech at the Values Summit...

All of us are watching events closely, but we know who America is dealing with in these attacks. They are extremists who operate by violence and intimidation. And the least equivocation or mixed signal only makes them bolder.Read more: www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81222.html#ixzz26TXp8TnY

Mixed signal? Are you kidding me?

I dunno...

Is he right about 'mixed signals'?

Is it to be our position to assume responsibility for that privately-conjured fiasco?

Is it to be our position to slavishly bow our heads or play the International Smurfs or TeleTubbies and apologize for something that some private party (with an axe to grind) conjured-up?

Is it to be our position to servilely sublimate the grave injury and wrong done to us and to our people in order to kiss the arses of people on the other side of the world who have no grievance against us in this matter but who nevertheless grievously injured us?

Or is it to act like Men - to publicly declare that we regret that such an offense was offered - but to take no responsibility for it - and to avoid anything even remotely approximating an apology or that can be misconstrued as an apology - thereby 'sending the wrong message' about our involvement, intent and resolve?

I expect that it was THIS sort of 'wrong message' that Ryan had in mind. I have not yet gained a usable understanding of the full range of official US reaction to either the film nor the spreading violence that these mob-animals are indulging in, but, given what I've seen out of the US Smurf State Department in recent years, I would not be all that surprised if - when I've completed my own review of such things - I find more Smurf Language and 'wrong message' elements to the language than I, personally, am comfortable with...

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 15:19:46 GMT -5 Robert not Bobby said:

"...I believe he doesn’t give enough weight to religious indoctrination as a contributing factor..."

Based upon the variety of evidence that can be reliably and objectively brought to bear upon the subject, that is, in all probability, an entirely accurate and entirely fair observation...

[jarhead1976]

Islam is pissing down the back of America . It would seem the Potus and secretary of state think its just raining.

[deziloooooo]

Sept 14, 2012 13:56:11 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 14, 2012 13:48:42 GMT -5 Driftr said:

"...From what I've seen this is a bit different than what The Shrub was accused of. This is more a belief that some folks outside the country might look upon the current President and his expected policies towards them more favorably than the alternative President."

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[/img]

"Accchhhh soooooooooooo...."

Personally, I ain't buyin' it, and I'm sure-as-hell gonna need some convincing that there's anything TO this, but...

It's probably worthwhile to keep this somewhere on the middle set of burners until more of the behind-the-scenes machinations and players become known...

Good catch... I'm hoping (and don't think) that this is going to come to anything, but in this day-and-age of instantaneous communications and the empowerment that that brings, well, it has a disturbing shred of possibility embedded within it somewhere that we should probably drag-out and look at more closely, as we learn more about what-the-hell happened on the Arab / Muslim side of the fence...[/quote]

Soooo, your saying your not buying it but still feel it's perfectly all right to

"It's probably worthwhile to keep this somewhere on the middle set of burners"..calling it a " Good catch", "it has a disturbing shred of possibility embedded within it somewhere"... , , ...was going to ask WHY?..then realized ..your into .. a bit at times...so for me..
back to and some followed by a bit of finally topped off by as we move on.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

What I find most disturbing is that the behaviors we see so rampant and widepread in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Sudan and the rest, seem to be proving that point from the film far better than the wildest dreams of the filmaker might have conjured-up.

I think this was EXACTLY what the film maker intended Tony.. Religion of peace eh? How about we ask the moderate Muslims in Mail how their "moderate" religion is working out.

[Driftr]

Sept 14, 2012 15:33:59 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

Islam is pissing down the back of America . It would seem the Potus and secretary of state think its just raining.

[deziloooooo]

Sept 14, 2012 15:33:59 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

Islam is pissing down the back of America . It would seem the Potus and secretary of state think its just raining.

If you feel that way...what would you suggest those folks who your saying can't tell th difference between rain and piss do..?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Well since they are burning KFC's now, I might as well move this post here from the Islamification thread......

There is a REALLY chance the Middle East is going to collapse in on itself and you're going to see what's going on in Mali happen in wide swaths across the Middle East. Obama has just asked Egypt to take a side, Egypt and Turkey have told Iran they have to choose on Syria. Azerbaijan has Israeli planes and tanks in their bases pointed at Iran. Turkey wants IN the EU badly, and the Saudis want all that international money to keep flowing.

But ontop of that you have China's interest in the region to consider as well. The Islamic extremists have been causing problems for them on their own boarder, and in Africa. I say in Africa because China is investing heavily in the future of that county.

So what do you think is going to happen if these extremest continue to escalate across the region, as they seem to be doing?(There were more Embassy attacks today).<----- And more attacks again today.

Keep in mind the Muslims that want to move forward are the ones that want money and have access to armies and are working with Israel. Oh and have the backing of the Chinese really when it comes right down to it.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 15:42:37 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

"...Soooo, your saying your not buying it but still feel it's perfectly all right to..."

I'm saying that I'm not buying it, so far, and that I don't want it to be true, but that it has an odor of realistic possibility to it that I don't want to ignore or lose sight of, as we come to learn more about what happened, and the full range of reasoning (so-called) behind it. I do not see any inconsistency in such a stance. Do you?

[Deleted]

Sadly, Paul Ryan is a moron...and Willard, what can you say about Willard, he's a rich Mormon guy who doesn't drink beer (personally, if it isn't Samuel Adams or from a Micro brewery, I don't drink domestic myself)...



...the occasional Corona.

Mitt thinks people earning a million a year are the working poor that need government assistance.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 15:50:45 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

"...they are burning KFC's now..."

So much for Southern-style mash-and-gravy and corn on the cob in Tripoli...

Their loss... or gain... depending on whether you like the stuff or not...

[deziloooooo]

Sept 14, 2012 15:55:12 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 14, 2012 15:42:37 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

"...Soooo, your saying your not buying it but still feel it's perfectly all right to..."

I'm saying that I'm not buying it, so far, and that I don't want it to be true, but that it has an odor of realistic possibility to it that I don't want to ignore or lose sight of, as we come to learn more about what happened, and the full range of reasoning (so-called) behind it. I do not see any inconsistency in such a stance. Do you?

Tony..Anything is possible..however, with this being said..the premise that is suggested..starting something to benefit a election for the POTUS in any day but in today's world especially with all the leaks, all the media out there looking into all angles for a angle and the amount of work needed to even have a passing iota of chance to pull it off..and your going along with it as a possibility ..something worth considering..as said, most anything is possible in this world but when it comes to so far retched scenarios..for me just skim by and very little consideration ..for you not so..so be it..though for me my credibility is important..I would think yours , for you, would be too..

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 16:40:18 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Sept 14, 2012 15:55:12 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

I'm saying that I'm not buying it, so far, and that I don't want it to be true, but that it has an odor of realistic possibility to it that I don't want to ignore or lose sight of, as we come to learn more about what happened, and the full range of reasoning (so-called) behind it. I do not see any inconsistency in such a stance. Do you?

Tony..Anything is possible..however, with this being said..the premise that is suggested..starting something to benefit a election for the POTUS in any day but in today's world especially with all the leaks, all the media out there looking into all angles for a angle and the amount of work needed to even have a passing iota of chance to pull it off..and your going along with it as a possibility ..something worth considering..as said, most anything is possible in this world but when it comes to so far retched scenarios..for me just skim by and very little consideration ..for you not so..so be it..though for me my credibility is important..I would think yours , for you, would be too..

Well, OK, but there are two angles from which such manipulation could occur, insofar as I can conjure them at present, including...

1. A domestic plot to create a crisis that keeps Fearless Leader in office - which would, of course, fall upon Dems and their sympathizers...

2. A foreign plot to create a crisis that keeps Fearless Leader in office - because they (foreigners) do NOT want another Pub in office anytime soon...

I do NOT believe for one minute that (1) is operative here. As a Centrist with little loyalty to Dems OR Pubs, I have no problem with labeling both sides as a bit sleazy and manipulative from time to time, but both sides are, after all, Americans, and our peeps, and I do NOT suspect a domestic political kornspiracy.

On the other hand, (2) seems vaguely possible - something hatched in hooka-smoke -filled rooms someplace in the Islamic domain... plots within plots within plots... running deep and along multiple paths...

But I'm not betting any money on that one either; merely congratulating our colleague for a 'good catch' (coming up with yet another rationale, as far-fetched as that will probably prove to be) that probably isn't going to pan-out, but which deserves its moment under the microscope, once we have more data.

There was nothing more to it than that.

Hope that helps.

[workpublic]

the right is implying Obama did it?

my limo liberal friends are talking a romney/israel conspiracy.

wow, it's getting deep.


oh yeah,

the "US" didn't make or distribute the "movie".

in the US everyone has the right to an opinion. (piss Christ comes to mind)

There needs to be no apology for the film from our govt. and there for by proxy the American people

The "protesters" need to be re informed that the US stands for and will stand up to protect Freedom of Expression.

the movie merely portrays(quite badly BTW) old, well known, opposing versions of mohammads life. (the tabloid view). his bio is very limited, only the faithful can be 100% sure he was a "saint".

cut back the military aid to the "leaders" of the countries where these attacks are taking place in if they don't quell the violence within 48 hours.


stop blaming America.

[resolution]

Seems to me that with Obama in the lead in most of the contested states he would want more of the status quo rather than a situation where he could make a mistake and blow the election.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 17:31:08 GMT -5 resolution said:

Seems to me that with Obama in the lead in most of the contested states he would want more of the status quo rather than a situation where he could make a mistake and blow the election.

Agreed - 100%

[jarhead1976]

Sept 14, 2012 15:49:54 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Sept 14, 2012 15:33:59 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

Islam is pissing down the back of America . It would seem the Potus and secretary of state think its just raining.

If you feel that way...what would you suggest those folks who your saying can't tell th difference between rain and piss do..?

Well gee Dizi, what would you do if someone was pissing down your back?

30 years of aid, billions of dollars. They kill americans on soveign ground? What is our reply . ..... Diplomacy !

[TonyTiger]

Anti-Islam film protests escalate

BBC World News - 14 September 2012 Last updated at 18:33 ET



Violent protests have continued across the Middle East in response to a film made in the US seen as insulting to Islam

At least seven people were killed on Friday in demonstrations over a film made in the US that mocks Islam - as protests spread around the world.

Three people were killed when the US embassy in Khartoum was attacked, Sudanese state radio said.

In Tunisia, two people were killed after crowds breached the US embassy compound in Tunis. There was one death in Egypt and one in Lebanon.

Protests began on Tuesday against the film, Innocence of Muslims.

The film depicts the Prophet Muhammad as a womaniser and leader of a group of men who enjoy killing. Clips were distributed online with an Arabic voice-over.

The film's exact origin and the motivation behind its production remain a mystery.

Islamic flag

In Khartoum, a crowd of several thousand attacked the US embassy. State radio said three people were killed.

The crowds gathered first outside the German embassy, setting it partially alight and causing extensive damage.

The UK embassy nearby was also targeted by protesters but escaped major destruction.

The controversial film has no known links to either Germany or the UK.

Both countries confirmed all their staff in their Khartoum embassies were safe.

"I condemn in the strongest possible terms today's attack and call on the Sudanese authorities to ensure that those involved are brought to justice," said UK Foreign Secretary William Hague.

Later, US Vice President Joe Biden called his Sudanese counterpart Ali Osman Taha to express concern over the security of US and other diplomatic missions in Khartoum, the White House said.

In Tunis, hundreds of protesters entered the embassy compound and set fire to several vehicles in the car park.

Earlier reports said three people had been killed but this was later revised down to two.

...

Demonstrators raised a black flag bearing the Islamic proclamation of faith: "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger."

The American school in Tunis was looted and set on fire.

Tunisian Prime Minister Rachid Ghannouchi said the attacks were unacceptable.

All the dead are believed to be protesters. There is no indication that any diplomatic staff or members of the security forces were killed.

At least one person was killed in Cairo as protests raged for a fourth day.

Police firing tear gas pushed about 500 demonstrators back from the US embassy. Streets nearby were blocked with barbed wire, concrete and police vehicles.

...

In other developments:

In the Yemeni capital Sanaa, security forces fired warning shots and water cannon to disperse protesters near the US embassy

The US is sending a fast-response team of 50 marines to Sanaa to boost security

In the Lebanese city of Tripoli, protesters set fire to a KFC fast-food restaurant, sparking clashes with security forces

In Bangladesh, thousands of demonstrators demanded harsh punishment for the film's makers, and burned the American flag

In London, about 200 protesters gathered outside the US embassy, burning the US and Israeli flags but there was no violence

About 1,000 people joined a protest in the eastern Afghan city of Jalalabad, burning an effigy of US President Barack Obama

Thousands of Palestinians demonstrated in the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem

In Nigeria, police in the flashpoint northern city of Jos fired live rounds at a protest outside a mosque

There were also protests in eastern Sri Lanka and in the Maldives

...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19602177

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 18:39:42 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

"...They kill americans on soveign ground? What is our reply...Diplomacy!"

a.k.a. the Jimmah-ibin-James-Earl-Carter approach?

It's probably too early - with too many unknowns yet to be uncovered and yet to be contemplated - to go charging off into the fray with all guns blazing, but, rightly or wrongly - fairly or unfairly - an early onset of Analysis Paralysis and an early case of All-Diplomacy-and-No-Action was certainly part of Jimmah's domestic public-relations problem once the Iranian Hostage Crisis began to unfold...

[deziloooooo]

Sept 14, 2012 18:39:42 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

Sept 14, 2012 15:49:54 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

If you feel that way...what would you suggest those folks who your saying can't tell th difference between rain and piss do..?

Well gee Dizi, what would you do if someone was pissing down your back?

30 years of aid, billions of dollars. They kill americans on soveign ground? What is our reply . ..... Diplomacy !

Diplomany is good, Yes . The "they kill Americans " seems in this case twenty or so individuals..not the government..terrorist , al quida , though they say not them, but suggested revenge for our killing the # 2 terrorist in th Sudan..or some where recently. No one seems to be sure of anything yet , so yep, Diplomacy for now, till we find out who is responsible..

You in such a hurry..like the idea of just shooting from the hip and who ever gets caught in the cross fire so be it? How about we try to really find out who the bad guys are and then do what we can do to take care of THEM...

It won't be me..to old now..or you or anyone on this board but I know we have people who do these things..let them handle it..I am ok with that, hope you are too.

[jarhead1976]

All I see is more senseless slaughter.Hope your ok with that.

[Jaguar]

This just boggles my mind. How what 3 idiots can make a bloody film over here and the Middle East blows up in fury. Something is just not right.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 14, 2012 19:58:17 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

This just boggles my mind. How what 3 idiots can make a bloody film over here and the Middle East blows up in fury. Something is just not right.

Without it being forwarded all over the Internet, I would like to know the English translation of the Arabic translation of the movie dialogue. Then we may be able to at least understand some of the anger. We may not agree it all deserves the death and violence incurred but it may help us understand.

[jarhead1976]

Understanding insanity would be easier than understanding the Five precepts of Islam.

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2012 20:31:59 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

Understanding insanity would be easier than understanding the Five precepts of Islam.

Do you mean the 5 pillars? Basic reading comprehension is all that is necessary.

[cereb]

Sept 14, 2012 20:31:59 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

Understanding insanity would be easier than understanding the Five precepts of Islam.

HUH?