America was attacked again on 9-11

[cereb]

Sept 13, 2012 18:09:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

While there is no excuse for the violence perpetrated against our embassies and/or consulates, and if it's proven the original film never mentioned Mohammed or Islam and that he later dubbed into the film negative dialogue about Mohammed and/or Islam, should Sam Bassiel, aka Sam Bassil , Sam Bacile, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula or who ever he is somehow be held criminally or civilly responsible for inciting riots? I believe he got the reaction he was hoping for.

Is what he did, if proven, similar to yelling fire in a movie theater?

Incitement vs. fighting words

Incitement is a related doctrine, allowing the government to prohibit advocacy of unlawful actions if the advocacy is both intended to and likely to cause immediate breach of the peace. The modern standard was defined in Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), where the Court reversed the conviction of a Ku Klux Klan leader accused of advocating violence against racial minorities and the national government. The Ohio statute under which the conviction occurred was overturned as unconstitutional because "the mere abstract teaching of the moral propriety or even moral necessity for a resort to force and violence, is not the same as preparing a group for violent action and steeling it to such action."[4]

The difference between incitement and fighting words is subtle, focusing on the intent of the speaker. Inciting speech is characterized by the speaker's intent to make someone else the instrument of his or her unlawful will. Fighting words, by contrast, are intended to cause the hearer to react to the speaker.

[cereb]

ok nevermind. I don't think my last post was helpful at all. LOL! I need coffee....

[Deleted]

I just don't get it. When Dogma came out people were offended but I don't recall anyone being killed.

I understand that filmmakers, terrorists, and all sorts of weird people want to stir up shit. I just don't get why this film would do it. It's such a different mindset.

[Deleted]

1st ammendment protects speech, but not false or dangerous speech. Speech is not protected if it is directed to and likely to incite imminent lawlessness and put people in danger. We'll wait for details to see....

There is no excuse for violence against us. There is also no reason to neener neener the enemy when our men and women are in harms way...

[Deleted]

I recall people being killed recently over batman.

[Deleted]

I recall people being killed recently over batman.

They weren't killed over batman.

[Deleted]

Kevin Smith: Coming off of Dogma, this was the kind of movie we needed to make. After we fielded hundreds of thousands of pieces of hate mail, including three death threats, it just seemed like it'd be nice to make a movie where no one was going to threaten our lives.

[Deleted]

Sept 13, 2012 18:34:23 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I recall people being killed recently over batman.

They weren't killed over batman.

What were they killed over?

[Tennesseer]

I did say there was no excuse for the resulting violence.

But was the film really 'entertainment'? After all he allegedly duped the actors. The script said one thing of which the D-list actors delivered. He then, allegedly, went back and edited out their scripted dialogue, and inserted something completely different. I suppose you can call it artistic license.

I would though like to know who then dubbed the English altered dialogue into Arabic.

<<<<Crap...I am about to invoke Godwin's Law>>>>

In pre-WWII Germany, anti-Semetic German movies turned the populace against the Jews. It was done to rile up the masses. While it happened in Germany (and not the U.S.) that too was considered 'entertainment'.

For example, give this a read:

Jud Süss
The most successful anti-Semitic film the Nazi's ever made.

www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/judsuss.html

By the way, I have no firm opinion one way or another. I'm just thinking out loud.

[Deleted]

They were killed because a single lunatic wanted to play out a disgusting, violent fantasy. That's very different than hundreds of people rioting in multiple cities.

three death threats

Three death threats vs. four americans killed, an unknown number of Libyans killed, dozens of people injured, and it ain't over yet.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 13, 2012 18:22:37 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I just don't get it. When Dogma came out people were offended but I don't recall anyone being killed.

I understand that filmmakers, terrorists, and all sorts of weird people want to stir up shit. I just don't get why this film would do it. It's such a different mindset.

Yes it is a different mindset which I wish would change but I don't see that happening any time soon.

[deziloooooo]

Sept 13, 2012 18:12:25 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 13, 2012 18:09:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

While there is no excuse for the violence perpetrated against our embassies and/or consulates, and if it's proven the original film never mentioned Mohammed or Islam and that he later dubbed into the film negative dialogue about Mohammed and/or Islam, should Sam Bassiel, aka Sam Bassil , Sam Bacile, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula or who ever he is somehow be held criminally or civilly responsible for inciting riots? I believe he got the reaction he was hoping for.

Is what he did, if proven, similar to yelling fire in a movie theater?

nope. you can't incite a riot with entertainment, and that is precisely what a movie is. when you yell FIRE in a theatre, you are not giving people a choice of whether to indulge in the incitement. entertainment is totally different.

a review of War of the Worlds would be helpful, here.
should Orson Wells have been held criminally liable for the suicides?

Your probably correct Tenn, however, we are not alone in this world..Actually , while one of the more populated country's..315 or so million..in the over all context, just a small %..and while by our laws , to speak out, degrade others either verbally, by print, on film or any media way is not against anything but good taste , when done to purposely inflame, insult others knowing that it can inflame those insulted so some would take such um bridge in that type of happening , they very well might strike out and cause damage, hurt or even bodily harm including fatal attacks to others, and all that was done by the instigator of the information presented purposely for that to happen...I wonder if they shouldn't be held accountable.

If no laws on the books now , then possible some should be considered?

While we might find people who react this way, attacking and damaging property over a printed word, a film..[ a below D rated film no less] by people/ a person who are/is not part of the group that venerates what ever is being attacked and ridiculed and think any who do so are ignorant and stupid... in their eyes , this is serious stuff...Do we as civilized people, [ We at least think we are ]..have a obligation to understand other cultures beliefs and not insult them and their beliefs , especially allowing some of us to purposely do so because of their own intolerance toward those peoples...Just a thought.

[TonyTiger]

Perhaps we can reciprocate...

The Muslims of Egypt and Libya and Yemen can collaborate to make a docu-comedy that pokes fun at Jesus (think 'Life of Brian') and Christians and their habits and lifestyles...

Then air it on the Internet...

We can pick it up, then swarm around your embassies and consulates, and climb and hang-off your compound gates like baboons and wreak hell in your compounds similar to what you wreaked upon us, and then have the Feds offer-up an apology, and then stage Apology Demonstrations...

And then it will be all better, and we'll be all squared-up, right?

-----

Of course, decent folk don't behave that way...

[TonyTiger]

[ substantive edit / expansion, the next morning ]

Oh, my... HOW many times - in modern times - have Muslim clerics issued Death-Sentence Fatwas on people - Believers, Apostates and Infidels - who dared to criticize Islam or its adherents or its Founder?

Not terrorists or extremists, but high-profile and much-revered and respected clerics... ayatollahs and high-end mullahs...

Can you imagine a high-profile Western cleric (bishop, etc.) calling for the death of someone beyond their reach, who has insulted Christianity? Especially somebody of a different (or no) belief?

Ridiculous in our times, for a number of reasons that can be readily expanded upon as needed.

The guy who made this film knew it was going to cause trouble because Muslims are brainwashed-programmed to susceptibility to commit violence upon their fellow Man whenever such insults or ridicule or negative portrayals are rendered.

Don't believe it? Ask Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh - or author Salmon Rushdie - or cartoonist Kurt Westergaard.

Rather than force someone to kowtow to foreign sensibilities I am more inclined to challenge the so-called Offended Party to lighten-the-phukk-up, grow-up, join the modern world, and get used to what every other belief system in the world endures from time to time when the pundits and naysayers crank-up the heat.

These incidents merely serve to shed light upon a large, savage barbaric cult, whose commitment and propensity to violence outshines all the others combined, and which screams to the heavens for a meaningful Reformation of its own, to drag it kicking and screaming into the modern world, to critique and reject the more violent aspects of its Founder's message and those of their sacred texts, and to grow the thing into a true Religion of Peace - something that is very far beyond their grasp at present.

Relativists and Equalizers will hold differently, in a sincere and well-intentioned attempt to keep the playing field level vis-a-vis Religion A or B or C, but the plain, hard truth - and the facts and manifested behaviors supportive of that plain, hard truth - tell things the way that they truly are - rose-colored glasses aside.

[TonyTiger]

Anti-US protests spread throughout the Muslim world

France24.com - Latest update: 14/09/2012

Angry demonstrations over a film mocking Islam have spread from Libya and Egypt to Lebanon and Afghanistan, but Sudanese protesters also stormed Britain and Germany’s embassies Friday. Follow the latest events surrounding the controversial film here.

Following violent protests in Egypt and in particular Libya, where a US ambassador was killed on Tuesday, demonstrations against American foreign missions have spread throughout much of the Arab world. The protests were sparked by a film, the "Innocence of Muslims", that was deemed offensive to Islam.

The low-budget film -excerpts from which have appeared on the Internet- was produced by a Coptic Christian man living in California. US President Barack Obama's administration has insisted the US government has nothing to do with the controversial movie.

Protests have so far targeted US embassies in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Tunisia. The unrest took an unexpected turn on Friday when protesters stormed the British and German embassy in the Sudanese capital of Khartoum. France24 brings you the latest news from this unfolding story.

All times GMT + 2

5:25pm – The Marine team that was deployed to Yemen counts around 50 soldiers, the Associated Press reports.

5:18pm – Despite the wave of violence threatening US embassies and staff across the Muslim world, protests in Afghanistan have so far been peaceful. Pentagon spokesman George Little said earlier:

"We're gratified based on what we know now that [Afghan]religious leaders have appealed for non-violent protests, if protests are going to happen.

"For the moment, we have not seen outbursts of violence against our diplomatic installations or our military installations in Afghanistan."

5:15pm - A follow up to live blog post at 5:05pm: Angry Muslims have also staged protests in Mumbai.

5:10pm - The Associated Press is reporting a “pitched battle” between stone-throwing protesters and police near the US embassy in Tunisia. A large cloud of black smoke has risen from the neighbourhood where the mission is located.

5:05pm - Indian police say they have arrested 86 people after Muslim protesters attacked US consulate in the city of Chennai.

5pm – Statement from Pentagon spokesman George Little to reporters earlier today:

"[Deploying Marine platoon to Sanaa] is partly a response to events over the past two days at our embassy in Yemen but it's also in part a precautionary measure."

4:50pm – According to a Reuters reporters in Tunisia, at least five protesters have been wounded by police gunfire near the US embassy in the capital and a there is a large fire inside the embassy compound.

4:48pm – The Reuters news agency is reporting that the Pentagon has already sent a “fast” Marine platoon to Yemen to boost security at the US embassy in that country. The platoon is already on the ground.


4:45pm – AFP is reporting that US embassy guards have fired shots as Sudanese protesters breached the American embassy’s perimeter.

4:38pm – A United States official has said that a Marine team is being sent to Yemen to deal with the aftermath of the embassy attack in that country.

4:36pm – A Sudanese medic has told the AFP news agency that a protester was killed near the US embassy in Khartoum as police tried to disperse a demonstration.

4:30pm – Eye witnesses have reported that protesters in the Tunisian capital of Tunis have stormed the US embassy there, climbing over the compound’s wall, setting fire to trees and breaking the building's windows.

...

4pm – Sudanese police used tear gas to try to disperse some 5,000 protesters who surrounded the German and British embassies in the capital of Khartom. Later, journalists working for international news outlets said protesters smashed windows of the German mission and started a fire outside its main gate.

German officials have released a statement saying their embassy staff was safe and condemning the ‘hate video’ that has incited the riots.

www.france24.com/en/20120914-live-blog-unrest-riots-anti-islam-film-usa-embassy-friday-prayer-egypt-lebanon-sudan-tunisia

[Deleted]

This is a good opinion piece.

Editor's note: Ed Husain is a senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations and author of "The Islamist." He can be followed on Twitter via @ed_Husain

(CNN) -- The fall of dictatorships does not guarantee the creation of free societies. There is often a period in which we witness the legacy of tyranny. The Arab uprisings have overthrown tyrants in Egypt and Libya, but the populations and lawmakers have yet to grasp that democracy is not only about free elections but creating free societies.

When sexual harassment of women increases on the streets of Egypt, when centuries-old shrines of Muslim saints are destroyed with explosives in Libya, when screenings of films such as "Persepolis" trigger riots in Tunisia and Christian minorities across the Middle East feel under siege, then we must stop pretending that all is well with the Arab Spring. But all is not lost either.

Arab societies are on a journey. They can easily take the wrong turn. The attacks on the American embassies in Libya, Egypt and Yemen are examples of the ongoing presence of intolerant, tyrannical actors in Arab societies.

These are people who were born and raised in dictatorships. They are accustomed to thinking that a government controls its citizens -- that a film or documentary cannot be produced without government approval. For decades, this has been the reality of their lives, and they strongly believe that the Western world and its citizens have a similarly controlling relationship between individuals and government.

In light of this assumption, they hold the U.S. government responsible for the tacky and distasteful film produced by a right-wing Muslimphobe.

Little wonder, then, that Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy has called for the prosecution by the U.S government of the filmmakers, and Egypt's top cleric, Mufti Ali Goma, has called on the United Nations to forbid denigration of faiths. Morsy studied in the United States and Ali Goma regularly visits the West on the interfaith circuit, yet both men don't yet grasp that religious freedom and the freedom of expression are inextricably linked in America.

It is hard for younger Arabs not born into freedom to understand how individual liberty works in real life.

The freedom to proselytize also guarantees the right to apostatize. Heresy and blasphemy are essential parts of free and democratic societies...

For full article
www.cnn.com/2012/09/14/opinion/husain-arab-spring-democracy/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

[mmhmm]

Thanks for posting that, Robert. Mr. Husain is one who really does understand the Middle East and can speak to the subject with knowledge and authority. What he says (as here) often seems like simple common sense to some of us. If people will just read and digest what he's said here, it's not hard to understand what's going on in this case, and why.

[deziloooooo]

Sept 14, 2012 11:09:33 GMT -5 Robert not Bobby said:

This is a good opinion piece.

Editor's note: Ed Husain is a senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations and author of "The Islamist." He can be followed on Twitter via @ed_Husain

(CNN) -- The fall of dictatorships does not guarantee the creation of free societies. There is often a period in which we witness the legacy of tyranny. The Arab uprisings have overthrown tyrants in Egypt and Libya, but the populations and lawmakers have yet to grasp that democracy is not only about free elections but creating free societies.

When sexual harassment of women increases on the streets of Egypt, when centuries-old shrines of Muslim saints are destroyed with explosives in Libya, when screenings of films such as "Persepolis" trigger riots in Tunisia and Christian minorities across the Middle East feel under siege, then we must stop pretending that all is well with the Arab Spring. But all is not lost either.

Arab societies are on a journey. They can easily take the wrong turn. The attacks on the American embassies in Libya, Egypt and Yemen are examples of the ongoing presence of intolerant, tyrannical actors in Arab societies.

These are people who were born and raised in dictatorships. They are accustomed to thinking that a government controls its citizens -- that a film or documentary cannot be produced without government approval. For decades, this has been the reality of their lives, and they strongly believe that the Western world and its citizens have a similarly controlling relationship between individuals and government.

In light of this assumption, they hold the U.S. government responsible for the tacky and distasteful film produced by a right-wing Muslimphobe.

Little wonder, then, that Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy has called for the prosecution by the U.S government of the filmmakers, and Egypt's top cleric, Mufti Ali Goma, has called on the United Nations to forbid denigration of faiths. Morsy studied in the United States and Ali Goma regularly visits the West on the interfaith circuit, yet both men don't yet grasp that religious freedom and the freedom of expression are inextricably linked in America.

It is hard for younger Arabs not born into freedom to understand how individual liberty works in real life.

The freedom to proselytize also guarantees the right to apostatize. Heresy and blasphemy are essential parts of free and democratic societies...

For full article
www.cnn.com/2012/09/14/opinion/husain-arab-spring-democracy/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Robert , as I read your post I was thinking it behooves those who are placed in charge of these new fledging start up Democracies to come forward and explain to their people to cool it..explain that there is a different way of doing things in these Westen Countries..explain the whys that these things can be printed, put on film even though they are insulting to others ..but as I am reading thae article and thinking that I( came across the following..

"Little wonder, then, that Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy has called for the prosecution by the U.S government of the filmmakers, and Egypt's top cleric, Mufti Ali Goma, has called on the United Nations to forbid denigration of faiths. Morsy studied in the United States and Ali Goma regularly visits the West on the interfaith circuit, yet both men don't yet grasp that religious freedom and the freedom of expression are inextricably linked in America.


It is hard for younger Arabs not born into freedom to understand how individual liberty works in real life.

The freedom to proselytize also guarantees the right to apostatize. Heresy and blasphemy are essential parts of free and democratic societies..."

If these so thought of eduated and knowlegable people who have trveled often and lived among these Westerners for years in many cases , have no clue as to who we are and what are our way of doing is done... then how the hell are their subjects going to understand waht I was thinking should be explained to them by their elected and appointed leaders...

In a way, after reading that BS I am thinking those here who are posting such radical dissing of the whole area and peoples of this hugh group just might have it right.

My liberal views of thinking a minority only of the crazies here, still great hope for rational thought in this part of the world...I must be nuts..my feelings and thoughts are just BS . It is just that...a hopeless situation and those so thought radicals with their condemnation of the whole regrding them..probnably more correct then wrong..

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 11:09:33 GMT -5 Robert not Bobby said:

"...Arab societies are on a journey. They can easily take the wrong turn..."

So long as they stay on their side of the road - no problem.

"...The attacks on the American embassies in Libya, Egypt and Yemen are examples of the ongoing presence of intolerant, tyrannical actors in Arab societies..."

True enough, although I suspect that when we get to the bottom of the story that we will find Ayatollahs and Mullahs and religiously-motivated radicals high-up on the list of cast-members.

"...These are people who were born and raised in dictatorships..."

True enough. And the common-denominator religious component of their interrelated cultures is a substantial and integral part of their dictatorial environment; by-and-large, they've gone from dictatorial absolute monarchies (sultanates, caliphates, etc.) to subjugation under European Imperialism and Colonialism to being suddenly let loose on their own once again and devolving into a variety of newer-age absolute monarchies and theocracies and military and secular dictatorships - from one nightmare of repression to another to another to another over many centuries.

"...They are accustomed to thinking that a government controls its citizens -- that a film or documentary cannot be produced without government approval. For decades, this has been the reality of their lives, and they strongly believe that the Western world and its citizens have a similarly controlling relationship between individuals and government..."

Believable, in an age before the advent of a widely-available Internet and television and high-speed travel and trade.

Not so believable now - even in the wadis and backwaters.

"...In light of this assumption, they hold the U.S. government responsible for the tacky and distasteful film produced by a right-wing Muslimphobe..."

But the assumption may not prove entirely or even dominantly operative, when given a closer scrutiny, and the jury (and the facts) are still out on this one - therefore, the label "op-ed piece".

"...Little wonder, then, that Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy has called for the prosecution by the U.S government of the filmmaker..."

This does serve to support the author's 'assumption' to some extent, I think...

"...Egypt's top cleric, Mufti Ali Goma, has called on the United Nations to forbid denigration of faiths..."

What a grand idea! Perhaps then we shall see the United Nations convene a panel to objectively and independently revise the Q'uran and related Islamic commentaries and law, to purge it, too, of any mechanisms by which religions are 'denigrated'.

What a marvelous can of worms that would be, to open... ;D

"...Morsy studied in the United States and Ali Goma regularly visits the West on the interfaith circuit, yet both men don't yet grasp that religious freedom and the freedom of expression are inextricably linked in America..."

Separation of Church and State isn't a difficult concept to grasp. One need look no further than Turkey, within the Islamic domain, to see such a separation in practice; sustainable for many decades since its inception in the period immediately following WWI (1918 and soon afterwards).

"...It is hard for younger Arabs not born into freedom to understand how individual liberty works in real life..."

Is it also hard for younger Arabs to understand that the taking of a human life - and lives not even directly related to a perceived insult or threat - is as wrong as wrong can be?

Time-warped 13 centuries into the future, and armed with a reasonable and objective explanation of the setting and the incident and its reaction - I find myself wondering whether even their violence-inciting Founder would have approved of this.

"...The freedom to proselytize also guarantees the right to apostatize. Heresy and blasphemy are essential parts of free and democratic societies..."

Separation of Church and State is a beautiful thing; there is far more right with it, than wrong. Our colleagues on the other side of the globe will need time to figure that out for themselves, and it could take decades, or centuries, until they're all pretty much on the same page, in that regard.

Meanwhile, they're becoming more and more dangerous, and need to be labelled as and treated as such, rather than making excuses for them which, when repeated often enough and elaborated upon and leaned upon often enough, can seem more like appeasment than rational and realistic analysis and conclusions.

The article was an excellent 'read' and it (and its kindred) has a place at the discussion table, but such 'apologia' should be given every bit as close a scrutiny as more critical explanations...

[Deleted]

a cartoon, a book, a film.
an excuse, an excuse, an excuse.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the article Robert. It's very difficult for me to understand how people can take a video made by a whack job, and apparently dubbed by another whack job, so seriously and use it to attack diplomatic outposts.

[Driftr]

Sept 14, 2012 13:12:51 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

Thanks for the article Robert. It's very difficult for me to understand how people can take a video made by a whack job, and apparently dubbed by another whack job, so seriously and use it to attack diplomatic outposts.

Well...

If you want a certain President to stay President.
And you know a country has a history of re-electing the sitting President during times of strife.
Then you may want to start some strife just before an election.

Just saying (or actually repeating what I've been reading about some today)...

[deziloooooo]

Quote:"...Little wonder, then, that Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy has called for the prosecution by the U.S government of the filmmaker..."



This does serve to support the author's 'assumption' to some extent, I think...


Quote:"...Egypt's top cleric, Mufti Ali Goma, has called on the United Nations to forbid denigration of faiths..."


-----------------------------------------

I wonder how these two would respond if the anti semitism on the airways if Egypt ..and the Anti semitism sponsored by the state was also considered improper and part of those wants of the two individuals..

Grant you Iran's antisemitism sponsored by the State rivals Nazi Germany back in the day , however, Egypt is a close second and when you get down to the people in the street themselves, the antisemitism expressed by general public in Iran is almost non existent yet in Egypt...it seems to be the paramount concern of every one and all of them..big, small, famous, unknown...educated, ignorant..wealthy , poor..

www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-06/in-egypt-anti-semitism-is-back-in-fashion.html
===========================



In Egypt, Anti-Semitism Is Back in Fashion

By Jeffrey GoldbergAug 6, 2012 6:30 PM ET
.
"A travel tip for the international executive class: If you find yourself doing business in Egypt and you feel the urge to insult your interlocutor, 1) try not to insult your interlocutor; and 2) if you must, cast aspersions on the chastity of the person’s mother or sister. This insult will be taken hard, but it may eventually be forgiven.

Whatever you do, don’t accuse the person of being Jewish. That may cause an irrevocable breach, and could even provoke violence. "

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2012 13:28:29 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Quote:"...Little wonder, then, that Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy has called for the prosecution by the U.S government of the filmmaker..."



This does serve to support the author's 'assumption' to some extent, I think...


Quote:"...Egypt's top cleric, Mufti Ali Goma, has called on the United Nations to forbid denigration of faiths..."


-----------------------------------------

I wonder how these two would respond if the anti semitism on the airways if Egypt ..and the Anti semitism sponsored by the state was also considered improper and part of those wants of the two individuals..

Grant you Iran's antisemitism sponsored by the State rivals Nazi Germany back in the day , however, Egypt is a close second and when you get down to the people in the street themselves, the antisemitism expressed by general public in Iran is almost non existent yet in Egypt...it seems to be the paramount concern of every one and all of them..big, small, famous, unknown...educated, ignorant..wealthy , poor..

www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-06/in-egypt-anti-semitism-is-back-in-fashion.html

The medias' portrayal of the opinion from the "Arab street" carry about as much weight as the OWS protest. Ironic at best.

[deziloooooo]

Sept 14, 2012 13:26:38 GMT -5 Driftr said:

Sept 14, 2012 13:12:51 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

Thanks for the article Robert. It's very difficult for me to understand how people can take a video made by a whack job, and apparently dubbed by another whack job, so seriously and use it to attack diplomatic outposts.

Well...

If you want a certain President to stay President.
And you know a country has a history of re-electing the sitting President during times of strife.
Then you may want to start some strife just before an election.

Just saying (or actually repeating what I've been reading about some today)...

Just when I thought we have come a long way from the past , even here, and for the most part have moved on to good discussions, discussing issues, differences in a logical manner....then out of the blue comes...

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 13:26:38 GMT -5 Driftr said:

Sept 14, 2012 13:12:51 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

Thanks for the article Robert. It's very difficult for me to understand how people can take a video made by a whack job, and apparently dubbed by another whack job, so seriously and use it to attack diplomatic outposts.

Well...

If you want a certain President to stay President.
And you know a country has a history of re-electing the sitting President during times of strife.
Then you may want to start some strife just before an election.

Just saying (or actually repeating what I've been reading about some today)...

Why not...

It worked for The Shrub...

Iraq in 2003 was entirely unncessary...

And we should have been out of Aghanistan sometime in 2002...

But Shrub was a sitting 'wartime' President, right?

And America, of course, is loathe to change Fearless Leaders in times of war...

I'm sure that gave his 2004 re-election bid a bit of a boost...

===========================

In actuality, I don't buy into this start-a-war or keep-a-war-going in order to win re-election kornspiracy theory stuff...

[Don Perignon]

drifty intimates that this tempest in a teapot was orchestrated by a president who wants to retain his position for four more years.

But researchers have ferreted out some particulars about the production of the inflammatory and offensive (to Islam) film.
Read: www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/us/origins-of-provocative-video-are-shrouded.html?ref=world

The producer of the film is allegedly an expatriate coptic Christian from Egypt, with an extensive criminal history of financial fraud and theft... as well as a plethora of aliases and pseudonyms.
The reader comments after the article are quite remarkable... revealing that there are probably a lot more incendiary "activist" kooks on the fringe in the general population than most people realize.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 13:45:01 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

drifty intimates that this tempest in a teapot was orchestrated by a president who wants to retain his position for four more years.

Bu 5trearchers have ferreted out some particulars about the production of the inflammatory and offensive (to Islam) film.
Read: www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/us/origins-of-provocative-video-are-shrouded.html?ref=world

The producer of the film is allegedly an expatriate coptic Christian from Egypt, with an extensive criminal history of financial fraud and theft... as well as a plethora of aliases and pseudonyms.
The reader comments after the article are quite remarkable... revealing that there are probably a lot more incendiary "activist" kooks on the fringe in the general population than most people realize.

Maybe his church got burned-down by Muslims and he had an axe to grind?

A link to a lightweight Wiki article on the subject of Muslim oppression of Coptic Christians in Egypt...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts

This is beginning to sound like a Local Religious Brawl with us dumbass Americans caught playing Monkey-In-The-Middle...

[Driftr]

Sept 14, 2012 13:42:50 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 14, 2012 13:26:38 GMT -5 Driftr said:

Well...

If you want a certain President to stay President.
And you know a country has a history of re-electing the sitting President during times of strife.
Then you may want to start some strife just before an election.

Just saying (or actually repeating what I've been reading about some today)...

Why not...

It worked for The Shrub...

Iraq in 2003 was entirely unncessary...

And we should have been out of Aghanistan sometime in 2002...

But Shrub was a sitting 'wartime' President, right?

And America, of course, is loathe to change Fearless Leaders in times of war...

I'm sure that gave his 2004 re-election bid a bit of a boost...

===========================

In actuality, I don't buy into this start-a-war or keep-a-war-going in order to win re-election kornspiracy theory stuff...

From what I've seen this is a bit different than what The Shrub was accused of. This is more a belief that some folks outside the country might look upon the current President and his expected policies towards them more favorably than the alternative President.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 14, 2012 13:48:42 GMT -5 Driftr said:

"...From what I've seen this is a bit different than what The Shrub was accused of. This is more a belief that some folks outside the country might look upon the current President and his expected policies towards them more favorably than the alternative President."

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"Accchhhh soooooooooooo...."

Personally, I ain't buyin' it, and I'm sure-as-hell gonna need some convincing that there's anything TO this, but...

It's probably worthwhile to keep this somewhere on the middle set of burners until more of the behind-the-scenes machinations and players become known...

Good catch... I'm hoping (and don't think) that this is going to come to anything, but in this day-and-age of instantaneous communications and the empowerment that that brings, well, it has a disturbing shred of possibility embedded within it somewhere that we should probably drag-out and look at more closely, as we learn more about what-the-hell happened on the Arab / Muslim side of the fence...