Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell

[Deleted]

Christ took on the sin of mankind and was the blood sacrifice. And, nowhere does the Bible preach the universal salvation of mankind. Not all will be saved. It is "whosoever will".

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Now you're talking in circles.

[Deleted]

If you say so. I didn't ask you to agree or disagree.

And, most churches preach that doctrine.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Yet you said "even one sin cannot enter heaven".

Now you say god provided a way of foregiveness. That's very inconsistent & contradictory.

I don't mean to be presumptive, SL, but I'm reading this as saying that before one enters the Kingdom of Heaven, they are forgiven all their sins. So, no sin enters Heaven, since they have all been forgiven beforehand. At least that's how I'm reading it. And that's also my belief and understanding. No contradiction there.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

She also says not all are forgiven. Isn't this god supposed to be an all-forgiving god??

[busymom]

Hmmm. Let me take a try at this.....


I was taught that because God is totally Holy, if we came towards Him in our sinful nature, that we would just plain be destroyed, just because "sinful" cannot come into the presence of "Holy", without being destroyed.


When Jesus died on the cross, His blood was the penalty for our sin. BUT, we have to believe that Jesus payed the penalty for us. I don't know which Bible book it's from (one of you guys knows better than I do), "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved". It's having the confidence that Jesus paid the penalty for you that will allow you (someday) to be in the presence of God.


Hope this isn't clear as mud. Any of you brought up in a different Christian background, feel free to tell me how you were taught this concept.

[Deleted]

That's clear to me.

[Reckless Roselia]

If God is truly All-Forgiving then why create Hell? Why punish those people that do commit the Sins in this life?

[Green Eyed Lady]

Sept 19, 2012 10:39:59 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

She also says not all are forgiven. Isn't this god supposed to be an all-forgiving god??

I didn't see that, SL, so I can't say. I do believe God is all forgiving if you ask and if you are truly repentant. Sin isn't forgiven if you (the general "you") don't ask and aren't repentant. So I would say both are true. God is all forgiving IF you ask and IF you are repentant. Sins that aren't forgiven are obviously because you (again, the general "you") don't ask and aren't sorry.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Sept 19, 2012 10:42:36 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

If God is truly All-Forgiving then why create Hell? Why punish those people that do commit the Sins in this life?

Everyone sins, Roselia. Those who reach the kingdom of Heaven have asked for and been granted forgiveness.

I don't believe in Hell as a place of fire and brimstone, as I've posted before. I just believe the "opposite" of Heaven is nothingness - separation from the Lord. That, to me, is hell. I'm not sure it's so much a "punishment" as it is an absence of "reward". Semantics, I suppose.

[Deleted]

Sept 19, 2012 10:21:33 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Yet you said "even one sin cannot enter heaven".

Now you say god provided a way of foregiveness. That's very inconsistent & contradictory.

Hmm, I think Shooby said "even one sin cannot enter His Presence", Lassie. If we're going to quote then it is probably best that we quote accurately, lest unnecessary misunderstandings arise.

Tbh I don't understand it entirely myself, though I guess we have here an opportunity for people who feel they do understand it to offer an explanation… if we will but allow them to.

[Deleted]

Sept 19, 2012 10:39:59 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

She also says not all are forgiven. Isn't this god supposed to be an all-forgiving god??

What wasn't clear? I said Jesus took on the sin of mankind. That would incorporate all sins. However, salvation is for "whosoever will", i already said that as well. We have free will. We can choose to accept this forgiveness in the person of Jesus Christ or not.
That is how i understand it and that is what i base my beliefs on. If you disagree you disagree.

[Deleted]

And, i do not believe "all roads lead to God" or the universal salvation of mankind. Some will be saved and some won't. And, those are not my teachings, i didn't write the Bible but that is how i understand it.

And, God makes the rules not me. God isn't there to serve our whims. We serve God or not.

[femmefatale]

Hmm, I think Shooby said "even one sin cannot enter His Presence", Lassie. If we're going to quote then it is probably best that we quote accurately, lest unnecessary misunderstandings arise.

Exactly. Big difference, there. We have been granted forgiveness through the blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross. It is up to each individual, according to the Bible, whether we ask forgiveness or not is up to each and every one. Whether one wants to follow that doctrine and believe it is also a choice. We have to be cleansed of our sins before entering Heaven, by what I understand, in the Bible.

[Deleted]

[Reckless Roselia]

The notion and concept of sin in Christianity (and maybe in other religions too) is pretty fuked up.

[Deleted]

It seems clear to me. And, that is how i interpret and read the Bible. I don't believe the Bible 'says whatever you want it to say' as some others do. For me, i choose to study it and decide for myself. And, then as i understand it, i could either accept and believe it or walk away. I really don't see much middle ground in that but if you or others do that is for you to decide. And, God sets the standard not I. And, some of that isn't always what i would like or understand either.

[weltschmerz]

When Jesus died on the cross, His blood was the penalty for our sin. BUT, we have to believe that Jesus payed the penalty for us. I don't know which Bible book it's from (one of you guys knows better than I do), "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved". It's having the confidence that Jesus paid the penalty for you that will allow you (someday) to be in the presence of God.
----------
So, the billions of people who, through no circumstance of their own choosing, were born in far-flung lands and raised up to believe in Hinduism or Buddhism or Judaism or Shintoism are doomed, right? Regardless of how kind and decent they were, they're screwed. Yeah, that sounds fair.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I guess by turning the subject around, I won't be getting a direct answer from you then, Shooby.

[mrsdutt]

ROSE asked: If God is truly All-Forgiving then why create Hell? Why punish those people that do commit the Sins in this life?

Sin can not enter heaven. If it did we would have a repeat of earth. God is all forgiving. The key is the free will thing. We need to ask forgiveness. This, to me, goes hand in hand with free will. People make a choice. Either God's kingdom or hell. The key here is choice (and free will). We have been given a spirit, a body, and an intellect. It's up to us how we use all 3. Do we sell our bodies on a corner or do we protect it? Do we protect our intellect with what we put into it, or is it a free for all? Our spirits can be protected by protecting our intellect. Sort of like the mind is the gateway to the spirit. I hope this is helpful in answering some of your questions.

[weltschmerz]

God is all forgiving. The key is the free will thing. We need to ask forgiveness.
----------------
So, if I, an atheist, find myself at the Pearly Gates, I can say "Dude! I'm sorry! I thought you were a myth. I see now I was mistaken. I'm really, really sorry.", then I'm good to go?

[mrsdutt]

Sept 19, 2012 11:33:14 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I guess by turning the subject around, I won't be getting a direct answer from you then, Shooby.

I've yet to see you give an answer to any questions. So my question would be, 'Who's turning things around?'

This thread is meant to be an adult conversation, and as I have noted before, your tactics are just that, a means to be correct. There is no correct answers here, just opinions.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

God is all forgiving. The key is the free will thing. We need to ask forgiveness

.

And that's what I was asking shooby, She said very matter-of-factly that all sin is not forgiven, implying that even if asked, god will not always grant it.

And she's speaking only of the Christian god. As weltz said, there are other religions world-wide. Are the people who practice those religions sent to a different heaven or hell? Or not recognized at all because they haven't accepted Christ?

[Green Eyed Lady]

So, if I, an atheist, find myself at the Pearly Gates, I can say "Dude! I'm sorry! I thought you were a myth. I see now I was mistaken. I'm really, really sorry.", then I'm good to go?

If you truly mean it (and I can't believe you wouldn't be sincere face to face), then I believe you would be good to go. God will know what is in your heart. However, referring to the Lord as "dude" would probably not go unnoticed.

[femmefatale]

However, referring to the Lord as "dude" would probably not go unnoticed.

LOL!! Agreed, a bit more respect, might go a little further. ;D Just saying.

[weltschmerz]

Sept 19, 2012 12:25:29 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

So, if I, an atheist, find myself at the Pearly Gates, I can say "Dude! I'm sorry! I thought you were a myth. I see now I was mistaken. I'm really, really sorry.", then I'm good to go?

If you truly mean it (and I can't believe you wouldn't be sincere face to face), then I believe you would be good to go. God will know what is in your heart. However, referring to the Lord as "dude" would probably not go unnoticed.

If, after death, I'm confronted with the Holy Spirit, it would be hard NOT to be sincere. However, it's good to know I'm covered, either way.
Maybe he'd get a kick about being called Dude, and invite me to the company picnic. Nobody knows. Nobody really knows anything.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 19, 2012 12:17:39 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

God is all forgiving. The key is the free will thing. We need to ask forgiveness.
----------------
So, if I, an atheist, find myself at the Pearly Gates, I can say "Dude! I'm sorry! I thought you were a myth. I see now I was mistaken. I'm really, really sorry.", then I'm good to go?

You know, WELTS, that's a good question. I think under normal circumstances this is not viable. But, it's my understanding that we live in such confusing times -and because we are each judged personally - it's a possibility. Of course we can't misbehave with the thought in mind that we'll say sorry when we're there. (I am referring to actions, not thoughts and ideas)

Don't you think things (from the past) that have affected our thoughts are taken into consideration at the time? I see God as merciful. He gave us His Son so no one has to be ostracized. That in itself is a merciful act. Jesus Christ is all truth, mercy and love. Because He is truth, He can not allow anything that's out of those realms to enter God's kingdom.

[weltschmerz]

You know, WELTS, that's a good question. I think under normal circumstances this is not viable. But, it's my understanding that we live in such confusing times -and because we are each judged personally - it's a possibility. Of course we can't misbehave with the thought in mind that we'll say sorry when we're there. (I am referring to actions, not thoughts and ideas)
-----------------
Honestly, I'm not particularly worried. If I'm going to be judged by my deeds, I feel I may get a pass. I've tried to be a decent human being.
However, here's what I'm curious about. What about the people who truly, truly belive in the bible and Christ, yet continue to "sin", over and over again? They lie, cheat and live in sin, even while claiming to be true believers? Will they be judged more harshly? Or will I be judged more fervently, for not believing in the first place?

[mrsdutt]

LASSIE said: And she's speaking only of the Christian god. As weltz said, there are other religions world-wide. Are the people who practice those religions sent to a different heaven or hell? Or not recognized at all because they haven't accepted Christ?

I had this question a few years ago. It's my understanding that there is one heaven and one hell. We are judged - again, individually - by our knowledge. Everyone is born with a spirit of the knowledge of God. There's a little something in us, in the beginning of life, that knows what's right. Mind you, there's a shitload of stuff that can happen to an individual to cloud this knowledge. But, most people go back to the Golden Rule. That is the most important thing, that rule. Everything else falls in place when we live by it. The rest is minutia.

My humble opinion, of course.

[Green Eyed Lady]

If, after death, I'm confronted with the Holy Spirit, it would be hard NOT to be sincere. However, it's good to know I'm covered, either way.

I should have added to my post, Welts, but time constraints did not allow. I think, from reading you for these years, that you do your best to live a good, helpful life. I do think you will be good to go. However, I should have added that I don't believe that a person who has made a living out of being evil will just suddenly get to say "oops" and he/she is good to go. It's more, in my opinion, about what happens through your life rather than what happens in the millisecond after that life is over. I know that probably doesn't seem to make any sense but it's the best I can do right now.

Maybe he'd get a kick about being called Dude, and invite me to the company picnic. Nobody knows. Nobody really knows anything.

Possibly. I fully believe God has a sense of humor. Look at the platypus.