Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 4, 2012 10:11:53 GMT -5
I never understood why some people who call themselves Christians can believe all the outlandish stories of the bible (Lot's wife turning to salt, Jesus walking on water, Jonah being swollowed by a whale and then escaping alive..etc) but they will then turn around and make fun of other religious beliefs and "fairytales". When taken literally the bible is full of a lot of ridiculous stories. If you can really look out it without the bias of being raised to believe it is true, then it doesn't make more sense than say the beliefs of scientologists.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 4, 2012 10:12:31 GMT -5
There are (obviously) two schools of thought on the nature vs nurture debate.. I tend towards nurture with a nice dollop of nature to grease the wheels. Otherwise, kids of HS grads would never get college degrees
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Sept 4, 2012 10:21:52 GMT -5
Okay, so I haven't read the thread. Here's my $0.02:
God's an engineer. Do all the hard work up front so you can be lazy later. He set everything in motion (start of the universe) so it can take care of itself (evolution) so he can sit back and watch the show.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 4, 2012 10:52:47 GMT -5
The most successful offspring is a burly guy raised by a nerd. Multiple studies have shown that genetics don't determine IQ, hence why mothers have sex with the quarterback and then marry the nerd. I find that interesting. I remember freakonomics did a podcast on how much parents matter. If I remember correctly they claimed that a kid's education level & salary is more nature not nuture. An adopted kid is more likely to have a salary & education level related to their birth parents not their adopted parents. Seems IQ would play into that somehow. I don't remember everything they said, but for the most part parents don't matter much at all. I think the one thing where nuture mattered over nature was whether you were raised by smokers, if so you are more likely to smoke. This is where twin studies are important. There are lots of them out there where they look at identical twins who are raised differently. As I remember, both tend to gravitate to the same areas.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 4, 2012 11:16:27 GMT -5
Yes. It's on the Science channel which is owned by Discovery. If you don't have the Science Channel I am betting you could find it on DVD or online thru Discovery. That show makes me feel dumb when I watch it, those people's brains are working at an entirely different level than mine. I still find hte show fascinating though. There was an episode about other universes and that our laws of physics might not apply there. There is also an entire sub-atomic world that apparently does not play by our current understanding of the rules. If this explained 'string theory' can you please explain that to me. I've listened to several different scientists talk about it and still don't 'get' it. The theory that makes my head hurt is the one that the universe didn't have a single "big bang" but rather that the universe is gradually expanding, and then at some point will start gradually reducing, until it reduces down into one enormous black hole, and then it will have another 'big bang' event and start expanding all over again, and it's been doing this over and over for billions of years, expanding and contracting, each time erasing and recreating the stars and planets over and over.
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Sept 4, 2012 11:18:24 GMT -5
God's an engineer. Do all the hard work up front so you can be lazy later. He set everything in motion (start of the universe) so it can take care of itself (evolution) so he can sit back and watch the show. That's my thought exactly! My problem with Intelligent Design is that is requires God to keep tweaking things after the Big Bang. I maintain that that's unnecessary for an omnipotent being who would have planned everything before the first spark of the physical universe. In fact, I find Intelligent Design to be insulting to the awesomeness of God. The Bible is man's record of God (ok, at least to Christians, and I am Lutheran). I don't believe in the infallibility of what man wrote. I do believe that there is a lot of wisdom to be found in the Bible. The universe is the entire physical record of God. It is infallible. Unfortunately, we humans aren't always infallible in our interpretation of what we see. But God gave us the intelligence to ask questions and find answers. Personally, I'll look to the Bible for advice on how to live my life (ok, I don't always follow some people's interpretation of what it says, but I do consider what is said). I will look to the scientists studying God's physical universe for understanding of the universe. Where there is disagreement about the physical world between the Bible and scientists, I will defer to the scientists.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 4, 2012 11:25:40 GMT -5
If this explained 'string theory' can you please explain that to me. I've listened to several different scientists talk about it and still don't 'get' itDon't look at me, I don't get it either. I feel stupid half the time I watch Thru the Wormhole.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 4, 2012 12:21:14 GMT -5
It may be very true about adopted children. All my adopted cousins must mirror their bio parents because, in spite of the good upbringing, they are not so great. Not bad people, just not a reflection of their upbringing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 12:42:19 GMT -5
So, the only thing that you know for certain about your cousin's birth parents is that they committed an act of extreme selflessness, profound love and generosity, and you think they are the reason your cousins are "not so great"?
I think you guys are misinterpretting the research on adoption. For example, adopted kids are more susceptible to drug addiction if their birth parents were addicted to drugs - there is a genetic piece. But the main prediction of whether or not a kid does drugs is where and how they were raised.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 4, 2012 12:46:25 GMT -5
It is a fallacy to believe it is nature vs nuture and it's persisted because really that's the only way some people would be able to keep their jobs and get funding. Old pet theories die hard.
It's starting to be understood that no matter what you do both are a factor. Environment affects your genes, genes affect your environment. You can't completely overcome environment and you can't completely overcome your genetics. It is a symbiotic relationship, not a competitive one. You can't have one without the other, it is impossible to separate them.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Sept 4, 2012 12:47:47 GMT -5
I just want to say this has been an extremely interesting discussion. So thanks!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 12:49:57 GMT -5
Well, if that's not a scientifically valid representative sample, I don't know what is!
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Sept 4, 2012 13:12:25 GMT -5
So, the only thing that you know for certain about your cousin's birth parents is that they committed an act of extreme selflessness, profound love and generosity, and you think they are the reason your cousins are "not so great" I don't think we should subscribe those characteristics to all birth parents. I know at least one where that is not true. JMHO.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 4, 2012 14:48:37 GMT -5
One of my favorite past times in school was a discussion of evolution with those that were quite religious. I'd start out asking questions like "So you believe god created the universe?" "So god created the world in his image" "So he had the power and intelligence to create all this" and ask plenty more all the while them saying Yes! Of course!! At the I'd ask them "So, if god is so great and powerful and intelligent isn't it the least bit possible that he was powerful and intelligent enough to create evolution?" Then I'd just sit back and watch their head explode as they try to come up with an answer.
In high school a friend of mine came up with an awesome "theory" that still makes me chuckle today. Somehow the convo came up with a group of girls and a guy that they were in love yet some how didn't know he was atheist. So they asked him where humans came from then. He said "Well, one day this hydrogen atom found another hydrogen atom and was like how you doing baby and then the started to make little hydrogen atoms. Then they found a nitrogen atom and thought a threesome sounded fun, so they all got busy creating more and more atoms. (Fill in similar lines adding in other atoms and 16 year old guy innuendos) So there they all having one giant orgy and then BAM! Human being." Poor things had the most horrified look on their faces - never could tell whether it was all the sex references or their poor hearts breaking that their love wasn't a good Christian fellow.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Sept 4, 2012 15:27:17 GMT -5
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 4, 2012 15:34:40 GMT -5
And, btw, you have the premise that a blob of chemicals got together and then "sparked" life somehow. Somehow nonliving produced living. And, then this chemical reaction occurred a man walked out the ocean. But, it couldn't just be a man, so i guess a man and a woman just simultaneously walked out of the soup. And, did an eye develop and then an ear? But, i guess the genes and chemicals that were previously non living suddenly developed some insight, intelligence and foresight and began reading the future and making value judgements. It is really absurd if you think about it logically. It is really absurd, especially if you wildly misstate the whole theory However, shooby's statements on Evolution are about as ignorant as it would be for me to say that water just sprang into existence from Mother Earth's tits and it never ever ever changes form, because ice can't come out of tits (it'd hurt). I must karma you for this. I'm 53 and I've always believed (been taught) that the bible is to be taken literally. And...I do...How literally? Literal flood, literal virgin birth, literal resurrection? Literal 10 commandments printed on literal stone to be brought down by Moses from a literal mountain?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 4, 2012 15:48:45 GMT -5
There are so many things in nature that unless God did it for poops and giggles make no sense other than it evolved that way. The Kiwi's wing is one example. Why would God stick that poor bird with a tiny nothing of a wing if the plan was it didn't need wings? God needs better QA people if things like that are examples of beings springing forth in their perfect form. www.livescience.com/11317-top-10-useless-limbs-vestigial-organs.html
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 4, 2012 15:57:21 GMT -5
I always wonder how people figure out which parts of the Bible to take literally and which parts not to? There weren't any Smiley Winky Faces or "JK"s in the Bible(s) I've read to indicate "just kidding".
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 4, 2012 15:58:35 GMT -5
You take literally the parts you agree with.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Sept 4, 2012 16:14:03 GMT -5
I didn't read the whole thread, but I was taught that evolution is how everything came to be because God made it that way and evolution was His plan. I was also taught that the Old Testament is a collection of stories that were passed down from generation to generation that helped people make sense of the world around them and not necessarily EXACTLY what happened.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 16:16:21 GMT -5
I always wonder how people figure out which parts of the Bible to take literally and which parts not to? There weren't any Smiley Winky Faces or "JK"s in the Bible(s) I've read to indicate "just kidding". That would be awesome! Because I imagine God's coolness peaked in the early 90s the way mine did, I'm picturing a bunch of "everything in the sea without fins and scales is detestable to you... SYKE! lobster is crazy delicious, yo"
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Sept 4, 2012 16:24:17 GMT -5
I find that interesting. I remember freakonomics did a podcast on how much parents matter. If I remember correctly they claimed that a kid's education level & salary is more nature not nuture. An adopted kid is more likely to have a salary & education level related to their birth parents not their adopted parents. Seems IQ would play into that somehow. I don't remember everything they said, but for the most part parents don't matter much at all. I think the one thing where nuture mattered over nature was whether you were raised by smokers, if so you are more likely to smoke. This is where twin studies are important. There are lots of them out there where they look at identical twins who are raised differently. As I remember, both tend to gravitate to the same areas. I'm not sure how I feel about nature vs nurture as a black and white debate. I've got plenty of very intelligent couples as friends, people that were in my college engineering class that paired off and have started having very intelligent children. that's a feather in the "nature" camp, but there's a lot to be said for nurture, too. obviously, there are outliers in any discussion like this, but I graduated HS with a zinger of an outlier skewed toward "nurture". just putting this one out there for discussion. A's parents were from large, close-knit families that were close to each other too. mom and pop were both mentally challenged in different ways, pop was a bit physically challenged too. they were set up by their families to be married for companionship. well, a few years later, here comes A - a bright-eyed little girl who blew the doors off all the intelligence tests and screenings that you would give a child. she excelled all the way through grade school, college, and grad school. she continues to be a highly functioning adult, heavily involved in her community and in academia, and is one of those formerly close friends (now more of an acquaintance) with whom I can still have a very thought-provoking and objective discussion across myriad topics, where either one of us is able to play devil's advocate so that we can consider all sides of the issue - which is more than I can say for a lot of the people I come across day to day. is she a product of her parents, or the environment that stepped in to help raise her?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 4, 2012 16:51:34 GMT -5
Both. Intelligence is highly variable genetically. Look up the story on that genius sperm bank. Last I heard they hadn't produced a single genius IQ level child even though every donor was. Raw intelligence is a total crap shoot. Academic achievement is highly correlated with the academic achievement of the parents though.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 4, 2012 19:49:44 GMT -5
I would think that 'success' is more than just hi intelligence and then using that intelligence to better one's life... a 'character' or 'moral values' component.
I think we all have some control/choice over our 'character'.
Or was the Bible right about how a Stonecutter's son could only be a Stonecutter? (Daughters didn't matter - they were property).
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 4, 2012 19:58:54 GMT -5
I would think that 'success' is more than just hi intelligence and then using that intelligence to better one's life... a 'character' or 'moral values' component. I think we all have some control/choice over our 'character'. Or was the Bible right about how a Stonecutter's son could only be a Stonecutter? ( Daughters didn't matter - they were property). Chattel.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 5, 2012 8:19:39 GMT -5
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