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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 9:48:31 GMT -5
Ok. I have a question and i really don't want to have a theological debate, so i think this is ok here, just bear with me... Our homeschool group is very secular and inclusive. A few members were interested in a year long, meet once a week co/op. There wasn't enough interest in our group, so they joined with others from another group. I have no interest, so i was just being caught up on details last night. It seems they lost their writing teacher. He showed up for the open house and then decided he could not participate. Turns out the BIOLOGY teacher was very domineering at the open house. She insisted on using Apologia curriculum, said her main paper for BIOLOGY CLASS would be on Creationism (which she wanted the writing teacher to help with), and said a few other things that made him uncomfortable as a gay man (not sure she knew that... he didn't advertise). A few mothers had decided that they would not take Biology class, because they wanted to use another book, which you know, included some of the themes their kids would be expected to know in college. They still wanted to be included in the Biology lab, which is a different period, different fee, etc. The teacher was very offended and wanted to know why they would want to include those topics in their biology education. This whole thing makes me a little and i'm glad i didn't join that effort. However, it did make me wonder how prevalent this type of thing is? I don't really want to get into a debate on who believes what, i'm just curious as to how prevalent it is to not believe in evolution. Just to be clear, i don't think belief in evolution and creation are incompatible... I think some people believe in them both? Am I wrong? ... But, if one chooses not to believe in evolution, are there any real life implications? Does it limit your choices and growth potential in college? In the work force? Or is it a pretty prevalent stance and I just didn't realize it?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 9:52:37 GMT -5
I don't believe in evolution and it hasn't hurt my choices, college career or business career. But, i can read both sides and memorize and regurgitate any material any course or teacher has so no biggie. I don't have any qualms about my kids learning material from both sides. If the focus is on evolution, then they can learn that point of view and vice versa.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:00:22 GMT -5
The local elementary school teacher, who teaches a combined 6-8 grade class, doesn't believe people were on earth before 2,000 years ago. When they came to anything in a book older than that, they would skip over it. (I am not kidding...)
Same teacher once gave my DS detention for using JC as an utterance. She considered him to be swearing...
Someone would have a great case here of a local elementary school teaching about Christianity in the classroom. However, we decided to leave that to someone else. My kids just rolled their eyes and knew that they skipped over events in the past because their teacher was a religious person.
When we lived in the Bay Area, we went out looking at Christmas lights one night and my son started telling us all about the Jesus he saw on someone's lawn. When asked who told him all of this about Jesus, he said his teacher did. He had a young Mormon teacher who taught for one year, until she got preggo and moved back to Utah.
I think teachers should leave their religion at the door, just like other people do at work.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:03:32 GMT -5
And, people should leave their politics at the door as well.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 2, 2012 10:05:45 GMT -5
Ok. I have a question and i really don't want to have a theological debate, so i think this is ok here, just bear with me... ... This whole thing makes me a little and i'm glad i didn't join that effort. However, it did make me wonder how prevalent this type of thing is? I don't really want to get into a debate on who believes what, i'm just curious as to how prevalent it is to not believe in evolution. Just to be clear, i don't think belief in evolution and creation are incompatible... I think some people believe in them both? Am I wrong? ... But, if one chooses not to believe in evolution, are there any real life implications? Does it limit your choices and growth potential in college? In the work force? Or is it a pretty prevalent stance and I just didn't realize it? ...you may be surprised to find an ally in me on this one... ;D ...I studied evolution and have no problems with teaching it... the science behind it has valuable lessons... but I'm an Creationist/ID advocate... shocker... ...I won't say evolution and ID are incompatible, per se... but they're not simpatico, either... ...I would also be ticked at the Bio teacher being insensitive and domineering in her dealings with the Home Schooling group... ...and aside from scientists and such, I have never seen anyone alienated from academic or professional opportunities for being an ID guy... ...and that's my $0.02... edited typo
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:08:31 GMT -5
I find it interesting that people get so worked up about it. So, we cannot challenge Evolution? Real science is contentious and real science involves being challenged. Those who are so adamant either way need to take a step back and realize nobody was there and everything we discuss or conjecture is conjecture.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:10:23 GMT -5
And, people should leave their politics at the door as well. I completely agree. I believe teachers are there to teach students the topics they are supposed to, by the standards the state/feds decide. Children, maybe even worse in HS, are very impressionable. Religion and politics should be left for the home. Sure, explain the basics or whatever, but no personal opinions about either is appropriate in a public school.
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seriousthistime
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Post by seriousthistime on Sept 2, 2012 10:11:25 GMT -5
I would imagine that doctors who believe in creationism must also believe in evolution because there are plenty of evolutionary things going on in our bodies all the time. If they believe that God put the cancer there and there was nothing evolutionary about it, why would those doctors treat diseases? Why not just pray for it to go away?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:12:16 GMT -5
Well, you aren't always going to agree with the teacher. That is life. Part of learning and growing for your child is understanding that is the case. I have had professors with whom i disagree. So, in that case, i suck it up and do what i need to do to complete the class. Doesn't mean i have to agree with everything they say and teach in either case.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:13:56 GMT -5
I would imagine that doctors who believe in creationism must also believe in evolution because there are plenty of evolutionary things going on in our bodies all the time. If they believe that God put the cancer there and there was nothing evolutionary about it, why would those doctors treat diseases? Why not just pray for it to go away? I know lots of Doctors and many of them do believe in God and creation. As for "evolution" per se, we are physical beings and there are physical and scientific happenings in our body. But, i am not morphing into a bird.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:15:41 GMT -5
I don't think anyone can't challenge evolution. I would much rather we have a society that is willing and able to challenge everything with fact and logic, than to accept anything at face value... that's just me. Debate is always its most effective when you could take the other side's position and still make a succinct and reasoned argument.
I don't think refusing to acknowledge it is challenging it however. I worry that it gives homeschooling a bad name to have any portion of the population unable to speak intelligently on evolution, even if they don't chose to believe it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:17:45 GMT -5
Just to be clear, the theory of evolution does not say anything will 'morph' into something else.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:18:19 GMT -5
One should learn the theory behind both sides of the debate, absolutely.
But, there is just as much resistance from the Evolution side to even consider ID as well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:20:00 GMT -5
Well, you aren't always going to agree with the teacher. That is life. Part of learning and growing for your child is understanding that is the case. I have had professors with whom i disagree. So, in that case, i suck it up and do what i need to do to complete the class. Doesn't mean i have to agree with everything they say and teach in either case. Yes, but you and I are adults. Telling a 14 year old all about how Obama is great and Romney sucks isn't appropriate, IMHO. Just as teaching my child WWJD when we are atheist isn't appropriate in a public school either.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:20:19 GMT -5
Just to be clear, the theory of evolution does not say anything will 'morph' into something else. Um, yes it does.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:27:13 GMT -5
Maybe i wasn't specific enough, Evolution says a species can change, over time, so as to be eventually indistinguishable and unable to reproduce from/with its earlier form, but it doesn't 'morph' from one species to another... ie. evolution does not say humans evolved from apes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:33:26 GMT -5
I would imagine that doctors who believe in creationism must also believe in evolution because there are plenty of evolutionary things going on in our bodies all the time. If they believe that God put the cancer there and there was nothing evolutionary about it, why would those doctors treat diseases? Why not just pray for it to go away? I could ask you the same question. If you are a Doctor who believes in Evolution , then aren't you hindering evolution by stepping in with drugs and surgery? Should not the doctor just allow nature to take its' course so the species can evolve defense mechanism and reach a higher level? By stepping in we are altering evolutionary changes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:34:37 GMT -5
Maybe i wasn't specific enough, Evolution says a species can change, over time, so as to be eventually indistinguishable and unable to reproduce from/with its earlier form, but it doesn't 'morph' from one species to another... ie. evolution does not say humans evolved from apes. Yes, it does. You are saying that creation created itself, somehow put a mixture of chemical blobs on the planet which then connected and then one thing led to another led to another. So, yup, Morph.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Sept 2, 2012 10:54:26 GMT -5
And, people should leave their politics at the door as well. That's the first thing that came to my mind. In high school, DS's teachers often injected their politics into the classroom - a couple of conservatives and a whole lotta liberals.
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seriousthistime
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Post by seriousthistime on Sept 2, 2012 10:59:12 GMT -5
I would imagine that doctors who believe in creationism must also believe in evolution because there are plenty of evolutionary things going on in our bodies all the time. If they believe that God put the cancer there and there was nothing evolutionary about it, why would those doctors treat diseases? Why not just pray for it to go away? I could ask you the same question. If you are a Doctor who believes in Evolution , then aren't you hindering evolution by stepping in with drugs and surgery? Should not the doctor just allow nature to take its' course so the species can evolve defense mechanism and reach a higher level? By stepping in we are altering evolutionary changes. Nothing wrong with tinkering with the evolutionary processes. We do it all the time. Doctors believe in science, whether or not they also believe in creation, and there are many ways to use science to our advantage. I don't think if a child needed to have his appendix removed, many parents would decide that it must be God's will, or that surgery would hinder the evolutionary process.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 2, 2012 11:40:30 GMT -5
Even as a Christian, I believe in teaching kids evolution. To me, knowledge is power. you teach both sides of an issue and let the student make up their mind.
"I think some people believe in them both?"
Some do I'm sure. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm a Christian but also scientist (sort of). It's been an interesting topic of debate. Overall, I think evolution has some valid points, and has certain applications to explain some things, but it can't explain everything (no theory can). It has some evidience to support it, but it's not the end all be all explanation of everything biology that some make it out to be.
As I said, I think it's good for everyone to learn about it, wheather or not you end up believing in it should be left up to the individual. The same should be said for both sides of every contested issue.
"But, if one chooses not to believe in evolution, are there any real life implications? Does it limit your choices and growth potential in college? In the work force? Or is it a pretty prevalent stance and I just didn't realize it?"
I don't think it would limit you in college, the work place, or life at all. Maybe it would if you were a biologist, but you'd have to ask them. In most professions believing in it (or not) would never come up. Does being pro choice or pro life limit your career (both college and otherwise?) What about your views on politics? In college, and the working world, things like that almost never come up because of the unspoken rule of you don't discuss religion or politics.
If you happened to discuss those things in class as part of the class in college, any professor worth their salt wouldn't be biased towards a student who believed in creationism. The professor may engage in dialouge to encourage critical thinking on the subject, but not "discriminate" against a student who believed such things. Any boss or employer shouldn't discriminate based on creationism either.
As for as if it's prevelent or not, I think it's more prevelent than you think. We do have a tendency to think that most people out there think like us.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 2, 2012 11:44:16 GMT -5
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 2, 2012 11:46:42 GMT -5
I find it interesting that people get so worked up about it. So, we cannot challenge Evolution? Real science is contentious and real science involves being challenged. Those who are so adamant either way need to take a step back and realize nobody was there and everything we discuss or conjecture is conjecture. Agree with this also. There's nothing wrong with challenging any scientific theory. After all, people once challenged the "scientific fact" the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 2, 2012 11:49:03 GMT -5
there is just as much resistance from the Evolution side to even consider ID as well.
Because ID is a bunc of scientific garbage. There I said it.
ID takes a bunch of "facts" that cannot be tested by the scientific theory and says"neener neener that means there is a God and no such thing as evolution".
For something to be scientific fact it has to be able to be proven or disproven. You cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can disprove his existence. Therefore God belongs in the philopshy department, not the science department.
One of ID's favorite arguments against evolution is that there are not complete fossil records that show something that looks like a half fish, half monkey or whatever.
This totally ignores how a fossil is created and the fact that the circumstances are quite rare. It also ignores that there are several complete fossil records in existence (the evolution of the horse would be one of them).
Sorry but religion has no place in the classroom because it cannot be held up to testing. The whole point of faith is that you take these things to be true despite the fact that you will never able to prove it.
If they want to teach creationism in religion class I have no problem with that, but keep it out of my science classroom and I will raise holy hell if I ever find out my school system is teaching it in place of evolution or next to it.
Intelligent Design should be something that, IMO is shot down by both religion and science. It is dangerous for both of them in how it discredits faith and also makes a complete mockery of the scientific proceses.
I think John Paul said it best when evolution teaches how the world works, religion is there to teach us why. The two are not mutually exclusive.
But neither should they be mixed into the horror that is Intelligent design.
Go ahead and flame me for it but anyone who thinks ID is a valid scientific theory has not done any research whatsoever in what it actually takes for something to be named a scientific theory.
If you had you'd understand why it is so dangerous for our kids to be pushed into learning it.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 2, 2012 11:50:01 GMT -5
"That's the first thing that came to my mind. In high school, DS's teachers often injected their politics into the classroom - a couple of conservatives and a whole lotta liberals."
Hmmmm, I always find it odd when people say they're teachers are politically motivated. Maybe I'm lucky (or haven't been paying attention) but it's been rare, in high school or college, for my teachers to specifically express their political opinions. Oh, a couple of times they might have said something. And we had to watch a couple of Miachael Moore documenteries in my freshmen english class in college. But it's not like they went on rants all the time or tried to brainwash us to think like them.
But then again, I've taken mostly science, math, and computer classes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 11:50:40 GMT -5
The biggest issue i've read about due to college is that I've heard they do not necessarily have to accept your high school pre-requisites if say you have taken Apologia BIology... that they don't have to consider that as adequate biology and can base their decision on such. I think that it was argued both in California and Florida and the courts found the college/university had the right to reject high school science credits if they provided inadequate preparation. You read about those cases though, but don't know how many people that actually impacts. For my part, i'd say most people i know who would choose a course like that would be planning to go to a Bob Jones type university anyway. But then, does going to a Bob Jones type university limit what you want to do? But I would assume that those so inclined might have plans which did not include hard sciences anyway? I'm guessing it does not have a large impact on most fields...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 2, 2012 11:51:36 GMT -5
And there ARE people out there challenging and discussing evolution. Once again that is part of the scientific process, everything has to be set up so one day it may be shot down. A THEORY in science is something that has so much evidence for it that it is largely considered to be held as fact. There is nothing there that says it cannot be shot down.
Many theories in physics are being disproven or found to be a lot more complicated than was originally thought. Someone could someday disprove the Theory of Gravity.
But saying "Well the Bible says that God created the universe" is NOT challenging evolution. There is no way to prove or disprove God created the universe. It is circular logic that counts on you taking it at face value. That's not how science works.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 2, 2012 11:51:36 GMT -5
No flame DramaQ-just a (meaningless) karma for you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 11:54:00 GMT -5
Thanks Tenn... that is interesting, about an even split (not exactly, but closer than i would have assumed, putting the two different evolution catagories together) and fairly stable...
Edited
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 2, 2012 11:59:45 GMT -5
I agree with you DramaQ, evolution should be taught in a science class, creationsim should be taught in a religion class. It's good for everyone to take both.
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