What does prayer mean to you? Is it OK if someone

[mmhmm]

I think a lot of people have experienced the same feelings you have, Willing Sniper. Some come to the decision to forego religion entirely, some opt for a different belief system, other choose atheism or agnosticism. It's up to the individual to do that which serves him/her best.

[mmhmm]

The thread asks what does prayer mean to you? I am merely voicing my personal position.

If I am not welcomed to share my thoughts on this topic, who is the next one not to be able to voice their opinion?

You're more than welcome to post your opinion, Willing Sniper. You're not, however, welcome to opine on the value of the opinions of others. Your opinion on religion, in general, is one thing. Your opinion on the beliefs posted by another poster is quite another. It's the latter that is offensive to many and which isn't welcome here.

mmhmm, Administrator

[Opti]

Sept 5, 2012 11:41:56 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

If prayer works why don't the millions of amputees receive their limbs back? I mean we are talking about god here right? All loving, all knowing, built the universe god? Too heavy a lift for the old guy? What about all of the other maladies? Does god hate amputees? Does he hate starving children? Did he hate all the people killed in concentration camps? Prayer does not work. How many prayed at Auschwitz? Prayer does not work. There is no god.

Prayer works, but you are asking the wrong question IMO. In my belief system we are all individualized pieces of God part of the whole which is God. I believe that we have multiple lives, that we set up our initial circumstances and perhaps some arc for our current live to learn things we want to learn. I believe almost all amputees had that part of their life path. Some might have happened because they were a vibratory match to losing a limb. While we don't have the ability to regrow limbs yet, some amputees have a prosthesis.

Again, IMO, it has NOTHING to do with God allowing or not allowing.
It has EVERYTHING with the person in question being a vibratory match to get in those circumstances. Sometimes it is deliberate creation, i.e. the person in question at least at the soul level chose that experience. Sometimes it is just having bad beliefs allowing the possibility of shit to happen.

Again, this is how *I* see it.
Your mileage may vary.
Not stocked in all stores.
Void where prohibited.


ETA: It has everything with the person/soul allowing or not allowing the circumstance whether it be what we see as good or what we see as bad. Being an amputee can be a benefit if you are a male of draftable age BTW. You may have lost a limb but it could protect against being killed in war at a young age.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 15:53:58 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I think a lot of people have experienced the same feelings you have, Willing Sniper. Some come to the decision to forego religion entirely, some opt for a different belief system, other choose atheism or agnosticism. It's up to the individual to do that which serves him/her best.

We should be able to discuss these issues.

I think "religious man" in the all inclusive sense of the term would be presumptuous to think they could alter the divine plan by praying.

[Deleted]

Again, this is how *I* see it.
Your mileage may vary.
Not stocked in all stores.
Void where prohibited.

Cute. I like this.

[Deleted]

[qoute]Prayer works, but you are asking the wrong question IMO. In my belief system we are all individualized pieces of God part of the whole which is God.[/quote]

So energy. I like that I am god.

[Opti]

I think "religious man" in the all inclusive sense of the term would be presumptuous to think they could alter the divine plan by praying.

And I believe differently. I feel its presumptuous and lazy to not direct your life by refusing to use that creative power I call the Divine or God. While I do not have the belief or faith of Jesus Christ I use the exact same techniques he used to heal the sick and change water into wine.

Doing nothing is doing something.
I'd rather direct my fate. While I get pissed at myself because I believe my experiences are a result of what I believe it gives me the option to believe different and experience better. If I believed in a Divine Plan or everything is fated, why bother to live one life let alone multiple? Might as well phone it in.

[Deleted]

I agree somewhat Optimist, doing nothing is doing something and indecision IS a decision.
Perhaps there is no fate, maybe we are all here and in differing states of evolution of our souls. Could it be we have numerous chances to learn and maybe one day get it right?
I know I am a better person than I was 10 or 20 years ago and I try to be kind and most of all to listen. The most peace I have ever found is from meditation and yoga, perhaps that is MY religion.

[mmhmm]

Sept 5, 2012 16:01:08 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

Sept 5, 2012 15:53:58 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I think a lot of people have experienced the same feelings you have, Willing Sniper. Some come to the decision to forego religion entirely, some opt for a different belief system, other choose atheism or agnosticism. It's up to the individual to do that which serves him/her best.

We should be able to discuss these issues.

I think "religious man" in the all inclusive sense of the term would be presumptuous to think they could alter the divine plan by praying.

You can discuss the issues, as I said. What you cannot do is put down the beliefs of others. That's a no-no on this forum, period.

mmhmm, Administrator

[mmhmm]

I'm an atheist and have been for the greatest part of my life, since I was in my late teens. The decision was made, for me, after a great deal of research into various religions, attending churches of various denominations (including a Jewish synagogue), reading religious texts, etc. I finally settled on what has proven to be right for me. That doesn't mean it's right for everyone, as others will go through the same steps I did and come to a different decision. That's a good thing. Were we all alike, it would be a pretty boring world and there would be little to learn from others, and little to share. By learning from others about their beliefs, we're able to be of support in ways that are meaningful when someone else is in need. I guess, in my profession, that's been a blessing for me.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 5, 2012 16:05:31 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

[qoute]Prayer works, but you are asking the wrong question IMO. In my belief system we are all individualized pieces of God part of the whole which is God.

So energy. I like that I am god.[/quote]

Since you seem to truly want to investigate others beliefs, I will go out on a limb here.

I have asked why we are so important to God. After all, one might look at all the self centered, hatred and greed around us and ask this question. I THINK each of us is a speck from God. A part of Him, so to say. That speck is our soul. I don't have proof, just a realization. What do you think of this? Do I border on insanity? Or is this plausible? Since my question is serious, there are no crazy icons allowed.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 16:22:36 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'm an atheist and have been for the greatest part of my life, since I was in my late teens. The decision was made, for me, after a great deal of research into various religions, attending churches of various denominations (including a Jewish synagogue), reading religious texts, etc. I finally settled on what has proven to be right for me. That doesn't mean it's right for everyone, as others will go through the same steps I did and come to a different decision. That's a good thing. Were we all alike, it would be a pretty boring world and there would be little to learn from others, and little to share. By learning from others about their beliefs, we're able to be of support in ways that are meaningful when someone else is in need. I guess, in my profession, that's been a blessing for me.

Although others would name me an atheist, I like to say I am a human. I live I die. The others are believers.

[mmhmm]

Others are, yes, believers; however, each doesn't believe in the same thing. There are nuances and variances in individual belief systems. We're all humans.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 16:53:04 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Others are, yes, believers; however, each doesn't believe in the same thing. There are nuances and variances in individual belief systems. We're all humans.

Oh I totally get that. I don't actively disbelieve I just live my life.

[mmhmm]

I hear you, Willing Sniper. My family is a mish-mosh, really. Mother and I are atheists (I'm closest to secular humanist in my beliefs and so is she). My SIL, DIL and DS are all devoutly Christian. My daughter is agnostic. We sorta run the gamut as far as religiousity goes but we all manage to get along. We just don't discuss religion.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 17:04:59 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

My daughter is agnostic.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 15:15:41 GMT -5 @joey said:

Sept 5, 2012 14:42:04 GMT -5 @shooby said:

There are circumstances within our control and circumstances outside of our control . We have SOME control over our own being. We do not have total control over our circumstances. Having Some control does not mean we have no control.

I guess what I am wondering is how much of your life do you believe is already mapped out by your god or predestined and out of your control?

I am not sure what you mean? I have free will. Today i can choose to do one thing or the other. God exists outside of time. My physical life hasn't been, is and already was from His perspective. I have the ability to choose good and evil.

[thyme4change]

Both sides of my family are very devout. My husband is PK, my parents and my sister (and her DH) are extremely devout. My BIL went to bible college. Everyone at least attends and talks the talk. And we gave up on religion entirely. Later, we gave up on believing too. I found that once I was able to break free of the lack of logic that the church presented me, I was able to make sense of the world. For the first time in my life I felt okay with things. I didn't feel all weird inside. I didn't feel like I wasn't good enough or I was broken and wrong. I also all of a sudden very clearly saw the world as it was. And it made sense. Before that, nothing ever made sense. Nothing ever added up. And all the christian explainations only made things more confusing and made me feel like crap. Once I got away from language that those people use, I realized how cult-like even a mainstream church is. I realized how they are the ones that say weird things that make no sense, and if you question it, you are going to receive the ultimate punishment - spending eternity in hell. It is the ultimate form of manipulation. The girls in Junior High say that if you don't wear the right jeans, they won't let you sit at the lunch table with them. Christians say that if you don't agree with them, your soul will burn forever and ever and you will be in misery for an unmeasurable amount of time.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 17:19:58 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Sept 5, 2012 15:15:41 GMT -5 @joey said:

I guess what I am wondering is how much of your life do you believe is already mapped out by your god or predestined and out of your control?

I am not sure what you mean? I have free will. Today i can choose to do one thing or the other. God exists outside of time. My physical life hasn't been, is and already was from His perspective. I have the ability to choose good and evil.

Everyone has the choice to do good or evil. God is not necessary for that.

[Deleted]

If you believe in the divine plan logically there can be no free choice. Everything is predestined according to god's divine plan.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 17:37:10 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

If you believe in the divine plan logically there can be no free choice. Everything is predestined according to god's divine plan.

Exactly.
The concept of effective prayer and of free will contradict the concept of a divine plan. Free will and effective prayer do not contradict each other. So believers must either throw away the concept of a divine plan, or throw away belief in both the effectiveness of prayer and of free will.

[kittensaver]

Sept 5, 2012 17:37:10 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

If you believe in the divine plan logically there can be no free choice. Everything is predestined according to god's divine plan.

Ah! I get what you're saying - - here's how a Rabbi once explained the interplay of destiny and free will to me (his belief system): destiny (or predestination) is like getting on a bus. You choose to enter the bus at certain time headed in a certain direction; at some point you will inevitably have to get off. That is your destiny - it begins and ends according to some plan (your own, God's, Karma's - whatever you personally happen to believe).

While you are sitting on the bus, stuff happens. People get on and off. Stops, speed ups, bumps and slow downs happen. How you react to and interact with those situations and those people is up to you . . . that is your free will. You can go to sleep, ignore, engage with other riders (or not), move seats, whatever you want. That is free will.

There is no conflict with the two. According to the Rabbi, they work in perfect harmony.

[Deleted]

Either god runs absolutely everything or he doesn't.

[kittensaver]

Sept 5, 2012 18:18:35 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

Either god runs absolutely everything or he doesn't.

In your opinion, of course

[cranberry49]

Sept 5, 2012 17:37:10 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

If you believe in the divine plan logically there can be no free choice. Everything is predestined according to god's divine plan.

There is no 'divine plan' as far as what humans do/react to. This is not biblical. There is a 'divine plan' as far as what God will do in the future. This is based on what he KNOWS we will do. Not what he 'plans' for us to do. Or causes us 'to do.' Free will is just that. We decide what, and when, we will do in our lives.

[cranberry49]

Sept 5, 2012 18:18:35 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

Either god runs absolutely everything or he doesn't.

God gave man free will to 'choose.' Simple as that. He did not make us 'robots.'

[femmefatale]

Sept 5, 2012 19:16:18 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Sept 5, 2012 18:18:35 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

Either god runs absolutely everything or he doesn't.

God gave man free will to 'choose.' Simple as that. He did not make us 'robots.'

[Deleted]

Then god has no plan?

[Deleted]

"This is based on what he KNOWS we will do."

If he knows what you will do it is preordained. So again there is no choice.

[cranberry49]

Sept 5, 2012 19:33:25 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

"This is based on what he KNOWS we will do."

If he knows what you will do it is preordained. So again there is no choice.

No. That's not so. If I tell my kids to not have any friends over when I'm at work...YET...I know in my heart that they will do just that...Did I cause it? No. I just knew what would happen. This is the same where God is concerned. He knows what we will do. He does NOT cause it. He did not preordain it. It just happened, because, WE as humans chose to do so!