mollyc
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Post by mollyc on Sept 2, 2012 22:39:16 GMT -5
Foodie dad, count me as one who thinks you should discuss this with your principal.
Perhaps your diocese is luckier then the one I live in. First choice for the catholic schools here is a practicing catholic with their teaching certificate. Then a certified catholic. Then any certified teacher. Then a catholic who qualifies for a temporary exception, then.. You probably get the idea. It may be she was the only qualified teacher that wanted the job. In any case, her contract would have a morality clause so if she continues to fornicate and it comes out, they can fire her. It will also likely have a clause that if she doesn't teach the religious parts properly, she can be fired. If she isn't catholic, she likely only has a one year contract anyway. Our diocese has had teachers on one year contracts for years because the catholic teachers would rather work in the public system.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 2, 2012 22:44:04 GMT -5
Fornicate?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 2, 2012 22:55:38 GMT -5
You know, I came really late to this thread and just read it through from start to point and I have a few observations.
1. Foodiedad came asking for help, at least that's how I read it. He stated he respected the teacher for keeping the kid and finishing school but also pointed out that she presented an OBVIOUS conflict on the values which are supposed to be supported at the PRIVATE school she applied to work for.
2. He never called her a harlot, whore, etc. He never referred to her child as a bastard, spawn, etc. Those are all hurtful phrases you threw at him, in addition to many others, which would have likely gotten him banned if he used them.
3. There appeared to be a lot of reading between the lines going on here. There appears to be an enormous amount of Catholic HATRED (read your posts folks) here which would not be tolerated if it were not directed at someone elses religious beliefs.
4. He is willing to put his money where his mouth is by paying for a private education for his kid. You seem to be offended that he expects his child's teachers to live the values they are supposed to teach. From his post it appears the teacher was IN YOUR FACE only to the kids and didn't have the stones to come clean to the parents in advance.
5. I really want to know how many of you felt so strongly about your values that your were willing to pay for private education for your kids. I really want to hear only from those who made the sacrifice to do so then did not have the environment delivered as promised. What was your reaction?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 2, 2012 23:02:19 GMT -5
Umm, I think the only standard he addressed was teenage pregnancy?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 2, 2012 23:03:49 GMT -5
There are many Catholics who *GASP* are able to use their brains and come to their own decisions about certain items. But, please, everyone here who thinks unplanned teenage pregnancy is a good thing please raise their hands!
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mollyc
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Post by mollyc on Sept 2, 2012 23:07:27 GMT -5
Just read your latest message. Why don't you ask the teacher how she is planning on approaching the subject. She may tell you to f off or she may give you an answer you can respect. On a personal note, the thirties, forties and fifties were turbulent times in Canada. A lot of my elders lived in sin at one point or another. The ones who told me I shouldn't do it because it was wrong, I blew off. The ones who told me why it wasn't a good idea financially, emotionally or socially, I took their advice under consideration.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 23:19:29 GMT -5
Umm, I think the only standard he addressed was teenage pregnancy? Ummm... he started out claiming being chaste until married was the standard he was addressing... REALLY? ? I did not mention the word "Chaste" or "Chastity" until PAGE 7 Here are quotes of me mentioning them - if you can find me saying it in a different context, please feel free to show me. Foodiedad you admit to having premarital sex... I don't see how age makes it more or less of a sin? And to be fair you are guessing the age of your DD's teacher to be 23 just based on appearance... She could in fact be 27 or 28? Does that really change how you feel about her being unmarried and with a child? I don't get it? Well, I have done a google search on her since I started this thread. She graduated HS in 2008 and graduated college this past May (2012). You are the one who keeps focusing on the sin aspect of it. Not me. I am focused on the aspect of how to teach my child this year (she is already at the point of needing a training bra) to be chaste and to wait until she is an adult when she has, at the same time, a teacher who didn't wait and had a child before she got married.And here is where I said THE SCHOOL (the 'they' in the sentence) are going to teach it... So, now that you've looked up the relevant court case, foodiedad, are you going to do the "right" thing and get this sinner with the kid and no husband fired ? One of the topics they are covering this year is chastity until marriage - I wonder how she will be able to cover that section ...But Margarita, feel free to continue to put words in my mouth, you and others have continually done so, as TheCaptain has pointed out. All the name calling in this thread has been towards me or where you and others have called the teacher names supposedly on my behalf.
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mollyc
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Post by mollyc on Sept 2, 2012 23:19:39 GMT -5
Just strikes me as the way to say "sex without marriage" in the context of this thread.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 23:44:32 GMT -5
She'll be able to cover it the same way you will teach it to your daughter. Objectively regardless of your own personal choices. Morality is taught at home... not at school. Your expectations of what your money buys you is unrealistic. Period. The end. Well, until the school hired Miss Jones, it was QUITE realistic.... ...and I am still waiting for an apology for all the nasty names you have called me and the misrepresentations you have made about what I have said...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 0:01:07 GMT -5
You know, I came really late to this thread and just read it through from start to point and I have a few observations. 1. Foodiedad came asking for help, at least that's how I read it. He stated he respected the teacher for keeping the kid and finishing school but also pointed out that she presented an OBVIOUS conflict on the values which are supposed to be supported at the PRIVATE school she applied to work for. 2. He never called her a harlot, whore, etc. He never referred to her child as a bastard, spawn, etc. Those are all hurtful phrases you threw at him, in addition to many others, which would have likely gotten him banned if he used them. 3. There appeared to be a lot of reading between the lines going on here. There appears to be an enormous amount of Catholic HATRED (read your posts folks) here which would not be tolerated if it were not directed at someone elses religious beliefs. 4. He is willing to put his money where his mouth is by paying for a private education for his kid. You seem to be offended that he expects his child's teachers to live the values they are supposed to teach. From his post it appears the teacher was IN YOUR FACE only to the kids and didn't have the stones to come clean to the parents in advance. 5. I really want to know how many of you felt so strongly about your values that your were willing to pay for private education for your kids. I really want to hear only from those who made the sacrifice to do so then did not have the environment delivered as promised. What was your reaction? The problem is, that one of the main catholic virtues is as Jesus said "Let he without sin, cast the first stone" and do not judge and you will not be judged". He is sinning just as this woman sinned, by having sex prior to marriage plus he is judging her (seems like something Jesus spoke more about than fornicating".
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 3, 2012 0:10:48 GMT -5
If I expected my kids school to teach my kids morals... I'd be an idiot. It's my (our)jobs as parents. If you haven't already laid a good foundation by now... you're screwed. ...but many parents DO send their kids to private, religious, schools to do exactly that... sure, it's a niche market... and sure, some parents do that to provide for a better/more moral life than they lived themselves... to want ones child to learn, even aspire, to a high moral standard is the least idiotic thing I can imagine... and the church leadership modeling that higher standard is a critical component in this task... and its a complete mystery to me how so many posters can disagree with that... c'est la vie, huh?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 0:23:50 GMT -5
If I expected my kids school to teach my kids morals... I'd be an idiot. It's my (our)jobs as parents. If you haven't already laid a good foundation by now... you're screwed. ...but many parents DO send their kids to private, religious, schools to do exactly that... sure, it's a niche market... and sure, some parents do that to provide for a better/more moral life than they lived themselves... to want ones child to learn, even aspire, to a high moral standard is the least idiotic thing I can imagine... and the church leadership modeling that higher standard is a critical component in this task... and its a complete mystery to me how so many posters can disagree with that... c'est la vie, huh? Given that the RCC has a history of protecting child molesters, they do not have the niche on high moral values. And the OP shows that fact, the lack of Christian morals, by breaking what Jesus said "judge not".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 0:24:01 GMT -5
"Umm, I think the only standard he addressed was teenage pregnancy?"
No it wasn't "teenage" pregnancy, it was pregnancy/having sex out of wedlock. He is a hypocrat because he and his wife did the same, he just didn't get anybody pregnant and his wife didn't get pregnant out of wedlock. So as long as there is no evidence, it is ok??? Btw, foodiedad, were you and your wife each others' first or were both of you with other people before marriage? How can you judge this woman for something you have done yourself and how do you plan on telling your daughter to not do something you and your wife both did?? What if she asks if you were virgins when you got married? Will you lie? Religion is supposed to be between you and God, you should not force/judge other people on their choices, I would think that would be a basic concept of any religion rather than intolerance.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 3, 2012 1:37:46 GMT -5
"how do you plan on telling your daughter to not do something you and your wife both did??"
There's nothing wrong to holding or expecting your children to adhere to a higher moral standard than you did. Lots parents have done wrong in their past, that doesn't make it okay for the kids to follow.
Threads like this make me realize how much hatred there is for Christians.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 3, 2012 1:59:56 GMT -5
Looks to me like most of the people posting on this thread ARE Christians, Phoenix.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 6:29:11 GMT -5
I see no hatred of Christians. I see impatience with hypocrisy.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 3, 2012 6:33:36 GMT -5
I didn't see any hatred, either, oped. Since so many have stated they are Christian, I think it would probably be pretty weird for a Christian to hate Christians. Frankly, I think it's pretty weird for anybody to hate Christians, or any other group of people they don't even know!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 6:51:02 GMT -5
To be fair, i don't consider myself a Christian. I'm agnostic leaning towards Deism. But i have no problem with the OP's religion. As I've said, there is much in the life and teachings of Jesus to be emulated. What I do find troubling is:
1) Holding this teacher to a higher standard than he holds himself. He and his wife are the main moral role models their children will have, not a 4th grade teacher. 2) His willingness to prosecute without knowing all the facts. 3) His willingess to overlook the sins of other teachers because he can't see them. This girl did the hard thing. She didn't have an abortion, which would have 'let her off the hook'. Other teachers might have had an abortion but you'd never know it and so they are 'ok' ? ... This is a hard one. I think if people are against abortion, they should not do things which might contribute to others making that choice. 4) Most importantly, his focus on chastity to the exclusion of the central tenents of compassion, forgiveness and non-judgement which Jesus taught.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 6:56:02 GMT -5
Well said Oped.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 3, 2012 7:39:53 GMT -5
I see no hatred of Christians. I see impatience with hypocrisy. Calling someone out on their hypocrisy as they claim to be a superior moral human being isn't hating Christians or Catholics.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 3, 2012 7:46:50 GMT -5
To be fair, i don't consider myself a Christian. I'm agnostic leaning towards Deism. But i have no problem with the OP's religion. As I've said, there is much in the life and teachings of Jesus to be emulated. What I do find troubling is: 1) Holding this teacher to a higher standard than he holds himself. He and his wife are the main moral role models their children will have, not a 4th grade teacher. 2) His willingness to prosecute without knowing all the facts. 3) His willingness to overlook the sins of other teachers because he can't see them. This girl did the hard thing. She didn't have an abortion, which would have 'let her off the hook'. Other teachers might have had an abortion but you'd never know it and so they are 'ok' ? ... This is a hard one. I think if people are against abortion, they should not do things which might contribute to others making that choice. 4) Most importantly, his focus on chastity to the exclusion of the central tenents of compassion, forgiveness and non-judgement which Jesus taught. RC here who was taught by nuns, priests and brothers amongst others. I really do believe in the bottom of my soul that all life is sacred and it appalls me that people would use my religion as an excuse to do everything in their power to encourage young women to have abortions instead of having the baby. IMO anyone who would actually believe that their payment of a couple of thousand is more important than those children needs to have a serious sit down as to whether this is the right religion for them. IMO they are completely incompatible. PS I still think if you find out she sucks as a teacher that is completely your right to complain and try to get her removed, and a teacher who is better put in her place. That is a completely different matter.
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quince
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Post by quince on Sept 3, 2012 7:52:44 GMT -5
If she was pregnant NOW, unwed, I can see where there might be a problem. A problem I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH IN IT'S ASSESSMENT AS SUCH, but still, understandable. Because she got pregnant a long time ago, and carried the child to term- seems like no problem. Forgiveness- not "Ok, we won't stone you, but now you're a different class of citizen who is excluded from some forms of employment." If she was extolling the virtues of premarital sex, fine, problem to be had. Because she actually engaged with it...(apparently, just like foodie...) and was unlucky enough to get pregnant, and in line with her religious teachings enough to carry the child to term...and determined enough to keep the child and raise the child, while becoming a teacher... ...Seriously. There's a problem?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 7:59:38 GMT -5
Huh? You are the one reading between the lines, Captain, if you felt this. Many of the posters are themselves Catholic. I was Catholic as a child, and my daughter converted several years ago. There was no hatred, just a few ironic observations.
And for the umpteenth time, the teacher didn't tell the parents because they didn't ask. We don't know how she came out to the kids, but more likely, they did. If Foodie thinks she has an agenda, then he should definitely talk to the principal again.
Foodie, I am willing to bet that the head priest at the church to which this school is connected to is not the principal. So have you talked with the priest there? And if you don't attend this parish church but another one, have you talked to your own priest about your dilemma?
I imagine either or both would give you better spiritual guidance than you will find on a YM message board.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 8:08:49 GMT -5
Now if the teacher was a nun with a child you might have a bitch coming. ...how so? Nuns take a vow of celibacy.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Sept 3, 2012 8:13:00 GMT -5
I've known three nuns with children. Two belonged to an order that raised the children communally, and one had the child through no choice of her own. ( That's all I can say ). That child was adopted by her family. The first two nuns are deceased. All were/are chaste women. All were in order(s) that are at one with the Holy Father, as they say.
I also identify myself as Catholic, although I am not able to receive Holy Communion at this time in my life.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 8:33:16 GMT -5
Just read your latest message. Why don't you ask the teacher how she is planning on approaching the subject. She may tell you to f off or she may give you an answer you can respect. On a personal note, the thirties, forties and fifties were turbulent times in Canada. A lot of my elders lived in sin at one point or another. The ones who told me I shouldn't do it because it was wrong, I blew off. The ones who told me why it wasn't a good idea financially, emotionally or socially, I took their advice under consideration. I like this advice (which someone else also suggested). I'm sure she's had to wrestle with this. What could work is, "I love my child and and I'm glad he/she is here but I missed out on a lot and had to work twice as hard in order to get where I am now because I took my responsibilities as a mother seriously. There's one 100%-reliable way to avoid this happening to you. It's called abstinence." Another thought I had on this relates to captain's post: I did spend $48K over 4 years a decade ago to send DS to a military boarding school. The initial reason was that he was falling trhough the cracks in the public school but I grew to appreciate the values they taught: self-discipline, physical fitness, honoring your commitments, etc. But, this being a military school, the kids were all there for one reason or another. DS once told me he'd never try heroin because he knew kids who had been through heroin withdrawal and they told him it was hell. I got a few new grey hairs but then realized that was a pretty powerful message coming from people who had been there, done that. I hope you open an honest dialogue with the teacher before you make any decisions.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Sept 3, 2012 8:43:44 GMT -5
DD is in 4th grade this year at a private Christian school. The school hired a new teacher for her grade over the summer. She is a young woman just out of college (doesn't look to be older than 23) and, as it turns out, a single, never-wed mother of a four year old. The school did not mention the fact that she has a child to any of the families of students in the fourth grade. Even during the meet and greet the day prior to the school year starting, she did not mention that fact to any of the parents. However, she DID mention it to the kids on the first day of class to the children. DD came home and mentioned, "Miss Jones has a kid." The way she mentioned it I figured she misunderstood and didn't press the issue. It was made clear to all the parents who went to the 'fun run' following the first week of classes because there she was with her daughter in tow. One of the parents of a child in the class approached the pastor of our church-run school about the situation and he basically blew it off saying, "We practice forgiveness." Of course we do. I also respect the fact that she did not have an abortion and finished school and is self-supporting. Where I have an issue is that I specifically pay extra to send DD to a private school where the values taught are supposed to reflect the values I was raised with, believe in, and reflect those of the church school where we are sending her. How am I supposed to reconcile, "Respect yourself, your body, and no sex/children until you are an adult, plus teenage pregnancy is ABSOLUTELY THE STUPIDEST THING YOU can ever do" with the fact that her teacher is supposed to be a primary authority figure and role model? It sounds to me like you need to go back and re-read Matthew. Pay special attention to the portion where Jesus tells you not to judge others. People with your attitude are what give Christians a bad rap.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 8:44:42 GMT -5
"There's nothing wrong to holding or expecting your children to adhere to a higher moral standard than you did. Lots parents have done wrong in their past, that doesn't make it okay for the kids to follow.
Threads like this make me realize how much hatred there is for Christians."
You didn't copy all of my post. I didn't say there is anything wrong with holding your kids to a higher standard. I asked if he would tell her the truth or lie. My point was he is not in a situation to judge the teacher! If his kid is going to have premarital sex/get pregnant out of wedlock because of 1 teacher she had in 4th grade then HE and HIS WIFE are not doing their jobs! You cannot blame everything on everybody. I don't think anybody said anything hateful about Christians or Catholics. Religious people can be VERY intolerant and unforgiving as he has proven, notice I said religious people, not Christians, it is the same with any religion. I would think religious people would/should be more tolerant and forgiving, that is part of "being good", is it not?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 8:50:38 GMT -5
I am not a Christian and I have not read the Bible. So I have a question. Is there anything in the Bible that says premarital sex is a sin until you turn a certain age? Because the OP is claiming his wasn't as bad because he and his wife were older. What difference does it make? Both him and his wife sinned the exact same way as this teacher. As somebody else pointed out, she was just unlucky to get pregnant because of the same exact sin they have all committed.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 3, 2012 8:59:08 GMT -5
The people calling him out aren't pretending to be superior moral beings and aren't paying tuition to keep their kids wrapped in the morality bubble wrap.
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