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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 1, 2012 23:20:57 GMT -5
My problem with a lot of religion-based private schools is that the underlying theme that they are teaching is intolerance. I think it will end up backfiring because society really is now a melting pot and I really want my kids to be exposed to a lot of different cultures/beliefs/what have you so I can reinforce our personal belief system in a real life context. I also want them to question and analyze our beliefs and come to their own conclusions. I don't want to raise robots... I want to raise individuals with their own minds. This reminds me of when I was a teenager, I had many interesting conversations about religion with a coworker that was a Jehovah's Witness. I mentioned it to my Mom, and she was appalled (don't mean to offend, but she was) and wanted me to stop. What my Mom didn't understand was that talking to my coworker wasn't swaying me to believe what she did, it just made me think more about what I believed. I admired that she could back up what she believed by showing me in the Bible where it came from, no matter what it was. I still didn't agree with her on a lot of things, but those conversations made me want to be as sure of what I believed as she was and able to explain it and back it up like she did. My coworker was teaching me (unknowingly), but the lesson for me was not that I wanted to become a Jehovah's Witness. I was kind of disappointed that in that particular instance, my Mom didn't seem to have much confidence in me. Apologies for going off topic........ ...and this was a great story, pink... I'm glad you shared it...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 0:58:27 GMT -5
Whether she had the baby out-of wedlock or not makes no difference. If I am not mistaken Catholics do not believe in divorce so even if she was married and divorced you would find that offensive. It is none of your business. She does not need to be the perfect Catholic to teach at a Catholic school (obviously). Her private life is not your or the students' concern, how/what she teaches in class is, you do not own her life. I am sure you are not a perfect Catholic yourself (your post tells all) so get over yourself.
I will judge you just like you have judged her: Don't they have a Catholic girls stereotype anyway?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 1:04:54 GMT -5
Also, maybe she was married and she had the church annul the marriage?? (therefore she says never married) I have a coworker who has 3 kids with a guy, when they divorced she had the marriage annulled by the church. I don't remember the exact reason why she was able to but she had it done so she could get married in church again.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Sept 2, 2012 7:01:34 GMT -5
DD is in 4th grade this year at a private Christian school. The school hired a new teacher for her grade over the summer. She is a young woman just out of college (doesn't look to be older than 23) and, as it turns out, a single, never-wed mother of a four year old. The school did not mention the fact that she has a child to any of the families of students in the fourth grade. Even during the meet and greet the day prior to the school year starting, she did not mention that fact to any of the parents. However, she DID mention it to the kids on the first day of class to the children. DD came home and mentioned, "Miss Jones has a kid." The way she mentioned it I figured she misunderstood and didn't press the issue. It was made clear to all the parents who went to the 'fun run' following the first week of classes because there she was with her daughter in tow. One of the parents of a child in the class approached the pastor of our church-run school about the situation and he basically blew it off saying, "We practice forgiveness." Of course we do. I also respect the fact that she did not have an abortion and finished school and is self-supporting. Where I have an issue is that I specifically pay extra to send DD to a private school where the values taught are supposed to reflect the values I was raised with, believe in, and reflect those of the church school where we are sending her. How am I supposed to reconcile, "Respect yourself, your body, and no sex/children until you are an adult, plus teenage pregnancy is ABSOLUTELY THE STUPIDEST THING YOU can ever do" with the fact that her teacher is supposed to be a primary authority figure and role model? Shaking my head.... Get off your high horse.
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Post by doxieluvr on Sept 2, 2012 7:05:47 GMT -5
You know, foodiedad, because someone gossiped to you after asking the teacher a personal question and receiving an answer. How would your child know? What part of, `she told the class on the first day that she has a kid` did you miss? Add to the fact that she told the students to call her `Miss` because she hasn't been married...it doesn't take a rocket scientist (or even a 4th grader) to figure it out. What is she to LIE by omission, and not tell the students she has a child? That's a pretty big secret...
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Sept 2, 2012 7:07:58 GMT -5
I think you use it as an awesome teaching moment. Explain to DD how her teacher goes home after school and cares for her daughter -- alone -- while all of her unmarried friends without children can get together to go to the movies, shopping, a concert, etc. Explain how raising a child with a partner/spouse is very hard work and that doing it alone means there is no one to help or share the work or even to celebrate the good times with. Give your DD real-life, reasons why being a single, teen mother is not as cool and glamorous as it might seem. Concrete reasons are usually more effective than vague, blanket rules. As far as any assumptions you might be inclined to draw about the teacher, we all would do well not to be so quick to judge. That job belongs to someone else with a higher authority. Besides, as tragic as it could be as a way to become a parent, what if she became pregnant from abuse or rape and not from consensual, premarital sex and made the incredible sacrifice to carry and raise the chilld? Would that make her single parenthood more "moral"? Finally, whenever I find myself feeling high and mighty, I remember that Jesus preferred the company of the imperfect and the sinners. Real life situations are wonderful teaching moments.
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 2, 2012 7:59:31 GMT -5
I'm surprised at the number of people who think that it would be okay and expected for the church/school to get intimate details of this woman's life before hiring her. Even if they think they would win a lawsuit, they are still likely to face a lawsuit if they bring that up in the interview. Is it worth it for the school to pay that kind of money?
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 2, 2012 8:01:24 GMT -5
My problem with a lot of religion-based private schools is that the underlying theme that they are teaching is intolerance. I think it will end up backfiring because society really is now a melting pot and I really want my kids to be exposed to a lot of different cultures/beliefs/what have you so I can reinforce our personal belief system in a real life context. I also want them to question and analyze our beliefs and come to their own conclusions. I don't want to raise robots... I want to raise individuals with their own minds. I agree! We're just looking at preschools right now, but even more so at this age I am very cautious about the attitudes that ds could be exposed to.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 8:30:07 GMT -5
This is a really thought-provoking thread and I'm still thinking about it!
I think that one of the best things we can do is to teach our kids about recovering from mistakes and failures. Being perfect is nice but none of us is. If you never fail it means you haven't stretched or challenged yourself. If the OP did the age calculations right this child was probably not planned, whatever the circumstances. Somehow the teacher finished her education and took responsibility for the child she brought into the world. There's a line you have to draw somewhere- I would not want someone who'd served a sentence for rape or murder in a teaching position- but in this case I admire the pastor's stance.
I have a personal reason for feeling strongly about this- I... ummm.. dated.. a lot in my 20s. Never pregnant, always got good grades then went on to a good job. I settled down after I married at 30. I'm almost 60 now. I still don't really regret that time in my life, but I suppose a lot of people would be horrified if they knew. None of their business, of course but how long do we want to punish people who have broken rules?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 8:51:57 GMT -5
Now if the teacher was a nun with a child you might have a bitch coming. Maybe she wanted a child but didn't want to get married. How does that make her a bad person? What possible "bad influence" is this woman pushing on your daughter? We are not in the 16th century anymore. And I am Catholic btw; Catholic grade school, Catholic high school, and Catholic college. I screwed up and went to a "public" grad school.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 9:11:46 GMT -5
I don't get it: - first the OP said she respect her for having owned up to her mistake, finishing school, getting a job and now supporting her child - but then goes on with the : How dare she parade such life choices in front of my daughter?
Damn if she does (abortion), damn if she doesn't (keep the child). Seriously, there is no winning with you guys. Both my wife and I went to Catholic school from 1st grade till 12th (hers run by nun, mine by the brothers or whatever they are called in English). While the education was grate, it creates this bubble where everything is black and white.
And like another poster said, this is the reason why I don't want to send my kids to catholic school ( and we are both from very religious families) because I want my kids to understand not all kids are the same, some have 2 daddies/2 mommies/ 1 mommy etc and that it is ok.
This woman should be applauded, not denigrated. How would you feel if someone told you that you hide your daughter and never speak about her in public setting?
Where you and your wife virgins on your wedding nights? You've never sinned? I agree this is a time to teach your daughter that no one is perfect and the important thing is what you do after you have fallen. More importantly: acceptance.
My family is super religious and it nearly killed them when one of my cousin came out of the closet, as it wasn't hard enough on him. When no one else would talk to him and treated him like a leaper my mom took him in, treated him like a son and loved him for who he was not what he did. Don't get it wrong, my mom is still not to crazy about gays/lesbians but she would say to me: hate the sin, but love the sinner.
She might never be for gay/lesbian rights or understand it, but when I was 13 she taught me that while I may not agree with someone live choices I can still love them and accept them. I've had gay/lesbian Friends along the years and my mom never once treated any one of them differently from my other friends.
I don't know how you folks do it, it is so freaking tiring to be perfect all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 9:14:11 GMT -5
Both my wife and I went to Catholic school from 1st grade till 12th (hers run by nun, mine by the brothers or whatever they are called in English). While the education was grate, it creates this bubble where everything is black and white. Best typo ever ...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 2, 2012 9:18:07 GMT -5
Now if the teacher was a nun with a child you might have a bitch coming. ...how so?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 9:20:23 GMT -5
What part of, `she told the class on the first day that she has a kid` did you miss? Add to the fact that she told the students to call her `Miss` because she hasn't been married...it doesn't take a rocket scientist (or even a 4th grader) to figure it out. What is she to LIE by omission, and not tell the students she has a child? That's a pretty big secret... A child is not a secret. Anyone who tries to keep a child a secret is pathetic like Arnold Schwartzeneggar. Stand up and own up. If you have a child, tell the world, stand up and be proud. Any implication that she should somehow "hide" her child is absolutely, positively despicable.
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 2, 2012 11:17:48 GMT -5
Now if the teacher was a nun with a child you might have a bitch coming. ...how so? I actually had a Nun in Catholic school who had children. I also knew one RC Priest who had a wife and children.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 12:41:33 GMT -5
Maybe she wanted a child but didn't want to get married. How does that make her a bad person? Interesting question. I know in the OP's case it sounds like the teacher had the child at a young age, but I've got a colleague who decided at the age of 38, with no decent relationships in her life, that she wanted a baby. He was conceived using donor sperm in a doctor's office- no fornication involved. How should the school handle that? And, unless she chose to volunteer it, why would the circumstances be anyone else's business?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 12:46:23 GMT -5
I think there has to be some boundaries between one's personal life and one's professional life. There should be some information that is simply not the business of anyone else including your employer. When you take a job, you are agreeing to perform you job well during the times you are required to work and they are required to pay you. They have no right to know every surgical procedure i have done or whether i have a pimple on my behind. Yes , there are some reasonable requirements to take any job in terms of one's health, character and so forth, but i think that we are starting to cross lines in the TMI age that shouldn't be crossed.
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 2, 2012 12:51:36 GMT -5
Maybe she wanted a child but didn't want to get married. How does that make her a bad person? Interesting question. I know in the OP's case it sounds like the teacher had the child at a young age, but I've got a colleague who decided at the age of 38, with no decent relationships in her life, that she wanted a baby. He was conceived using donor sperm in a doctor's office- no fornication involved. How should the school handle that? And, unless she chose to volunteer it, why would the circumstances be anyone else's business? I think that the very strict catholic teachings are against most fertility treatments as well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 12:57:22 GMT -5
BTW, just wondering if there are any divorced, male teachers there? Would the OP have an issue with that or having a teacher who had previously been divorced? Actually all the other teachers are married with children including one male teacher - the only exception to that (other than the new teacher) is one upper 40-ish widow whose husband died two years ago. Again, I can see both sides of the coin, seriously I can - I never compared her to a drug user, prostitute, or anything else like that - to make their arguments - other people did. I also never said she should never be able to teach - if you look at my original post I said: Where I have an issue is that I specifically pay extra to send DD to a private school where the values taught are supposed to reflect the values I was raised with, believe in, and reflect those of the church school where we are sending her. How am I supposed to reconcile, "Respect yourself, your body, and no sex/children until you are an adult, plus teenage pregnancy is ABSOLUTELY THE STUPIDEST THING YOU can ever do" with the fact that her teacher is supposed to be a primary authority figure and role model? And to answer someone else, no my wife and I were not virgins on our wedding night, but we were virgins well into/after our college years. And, actually, I found out from a different message board that there was a case decided by the Supreme Court earlier this year where they ruled in favor of a Lutheran school to be allowed to have a religious exception to the job discrimination laws. The basis of the case was that she was fired because she decided to sue the school for suing the school for a disability claim.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 12:59:09 GMT -5
So, have any of those teachers ever been divorced and are now remarried?
"And to answer someone else, no my wife and I were not virgins on our wedding night, but we were virgins well into/after our college years.:" So, that is still a sin. So should that now disqualify you for working at a Catholic institution?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 13:20:14 GMT -5
I think there has to be some boundaries between one's personal life and one's professional life. There should be some information that is simply not the business of anyone else including your employer. When you take a job, you are agreeing to perform you job well during the times you are required to work and they are required to pay you. They have no right to know every surgical procedure i have done or whether i have a pimple on my behind. Yes , there are some reasonable requirements to take any job in terms of one's health, character and so forth, but i think that we are starting to cross lines in the TMI age that shouldn't be crossed. But again, we didn't pry into her personal life - she volunteered it. So, have any of those teachers ever been divorced and are now remarried? "And to answer someone else, no my wife and I were not virgins on our wedding night, but we were virgins well into/after our college years.:" So, that is still a sin. So should that now disqualify you for working at a Catholic institution? And, no, none of the teachers have ever been divorced. If I were to volunteer that information to students, then yes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 13:25:04 GMT -5
She didn't answer a question a child asked her... ie. Do you have any kids? Did she tell the kids specifically, " i have a child and i've never been married" ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 13:28:54 GMT -5
She didn't answer a question a child asked her... ie. Do you have any kids? Did she tell the kids specifically, " i have a child and i've never been married" ? Yes, mmhmm already asked and I answered that... You know, foodiedad, because someone gossiped to you after asking the teacher a personal question and receiving an answer. How would your child know? What part of, `she told the class on the first day that she has a kid` did you miss? Add to the fact that she told the students to call her `Miss` because she hasn't been married...it doesn't take a rocket scientist (or even a 4th grader) to figure it out.
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 2, 2012 13:28:58 GMT -5
I think there has to be some boundaries between one's personal life and one's professional life. There should be some information that is simply not the business of anyone else including your employer. When you take a job, you are agreeing to perform you job well during the times you are required to work and they are required to pay you. They have no right to know every surgical procedure i have done or whether i have a pimple on my behind. Yes , there are some reasonable requirements to take any job in terms of one's health, character and so forth, but i think that we are starting to cross lines in the TMI age that shouldn't be crossed. But again, we didn't pry into her personal life - she volunteered it. If I were to volunteer that information to students, then yes. How was she supposed to hide it? The only way around answering truthfully would have been to lie. That would have been my kids first question for their new teacher. Are you really suggesting she should have lied when they asked?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 2, 2012 13:33:32 GMT -5
But again, we didn't pry into her personal life - she volunteered it. If I were to volunteer that information to students, then yes. How was she supposed to hide it? The only way around answering truthfully would have been to lie. That would have been my kids first question for their new teacher. Are you really suggesting she should have lied when they asked? ...were it me, I'd have changed the subject... just like public school teachers do when asked about TMI stuff...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 2, 2012 13:34:50 GMT -5
...and foodiedad, for posting more info for us...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 13:37:44 GMT -5
How was she supposed to hide it? The only way around answering truthfully would have been to lie. That would have been my kids first question for their new teacher. Are you really suggesting she should have lied when they asked? ...were it me, I'd have changed the subject... just like public school teachers do when asked about TMI stuff... But again, I wasn't there in the classroom when the topic came up - and, despite claims otherwise, I am not making an issue of this to DD so I haven't pressed her for a 'play by play' of the conversation. Did they ask her? Did she volunteer it? Heck if I know. All I know is that she made it clear to the students that she was never married and that she has a four year old child. And to back up BTDT's comment, I never knew the marital/children status of any of my teachers growing up - they didn't tell us and we didn't ask (and I went to public schools).
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 2, 2012 13:48:24 GMT -5
How was she supposed to hide it? The only way around answering truthfully would have been to lie. That would have been my kids first question for their new teacher. Are you really suggesting she should have lied when they asked? ...were it me, I'd have changed the subject... just like public school teachers do when asked about TMI stuff... If this was a rare conversation maybe, but she is going to be in a classroom with them 7 hours a day, 180 days a year. Something as fundemental as having a kid isn't the same thing as keeping your political views to yourself IMO. She shouldn't be getting into TMI details with the kids either but expecting her to keep having a child a secret is not reasonable.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 2, 2012 13:51:20 GMT -5
...were it me, I'd have changed the subject... just like public school teachers do when asked about TMI stuff... If this was a rare conversation maybe, but she is going to be in a classroom with them 7 hours a day, 180 days a year. Something as fundemental as having a kid isn't the same thing as keeping your political views to yourself IMO. She shouldn't be getting into TMI details with the kids either but expecting her to keep having a child a secret is not reasonable. ...but this is a private school setting, with different rules for "reasonable"... correct?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 13:55:19 GMT -5
Teaching public school I went from Miss the year I got pregnant, to Ms the next year. A few years later when i became Mrs. A few kids said, I thought you were married? And then promptly forgot it... I was the first person in my public school who was not pressured to get married when she got pregnant (there were 4 others in the less than a decade before me...). Slightly different because i was pregnant at the time and not just had a child. But i agree with the others, that students want to know about you, your kids, etc. hiding them would be extremely difficult. Even harder than hiding my tatoos would have been ...
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