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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:36:20 GMT -5
I just want to make sure I have this right, a single unwed mother is on par with a pedophile, in terms of danger to ones children? Or, you are just saying that in foodie's opinion it seems like the line for 'too far' or egregious sinner, is drawn at a different place than most people? I am not saying that but making the point that for foodie, that might be a deal breaker.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:38:55 GMT -5
Tell your daughter the Bible story about the woman caught in adultery. Point out that the crowd wasn't ready to stone the baby daddy, who doesn't even enter into the story. They were preparing to stone the woman. And (sigh) tell her some things haven't changed in 2,000 years.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:40:15 GMT -5
Vote with your $. IF you are unhappy with the school ask them to make changes or take your kids elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:40:40 GMT -5
This is one of the contexts that we really don't know. Did the parents ask her questions about her personal life at the Meet-and-Greet? Mine didn't. They wanted to know how I determined grades, what they would be reading, what supplies they needed to buy, etc? However, on the first day of school, the students got to ask me "Five Questions." Their questions are very different from their parents. Am I an Auburn or an Alabama fan? What kind of car do I drive? What's my favorite color? Am I hard? (LOL) And, of course, "Do you have any kids?"
I can see fourth graders asking her that. And I can see that she isn't going to say, "No, I don't." She probably also isn't going to call her child a "mistake" . . . not if she is a good mother.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:40:48 GMT -5
There is a valid point the OP is trying to make. Where would you or anyone draw the line? What if the teacher just got out of drug rehab, had been arrested 10 yrs ago for prostitution, shoplifting or whatever? Where do the rest of you draw a line over any of those things?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:42:07 GMT -5
This is why I have an issue with getting rid of "entitlements" and moving need to churches. Religious people are the most judgmental, IMHO. WWJD, indeed!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:43:00 GMT -5
There is a valid point the OP is trying to make. Where would you or anyone draw the line? What if the teacher just got out of drug rehab, had been arrested 10 yrs ago for prostitution, shoplifting or whatever? Where do the rest of you draw a line over any of those things? How about if they can perform the duties of their job? Nothing else is anyone's business.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:48:51 GMT -5
There is a valid point the OP is trying to make. Where would you or anyone draw the line? What if the teacher just got out of drug rehab, had been arrested 10 yrs ago for prostitution, shoplifting or whatever? Where do the rest of you draw a line over any of those things? This is ridiculous to even bring up stuff like this as an example. You cannot get a teaching license with a past like this. So your point is completely ridiculous!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:50:15 GMT -5
A criminal conviction is relevant inso far as it indicates an increased liklihood of putting a child in danger... ie. if they were dealing drugs at a school, if they molested children, etc.
Just to be clear, having sex is not criminal.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 1, 2012 9:52:36 GMT -5
...having sex, under certain circumstances, can be criminal...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:53:10 GMT -5
There is a valid point the OP is trying to make. Where would you or anyone draw the line? What if the teacher just got out of drug rehab, had been arrested 10 yrs ago for prostitution, shoplifting or whatever? Where do the rest of you draw a line over any of those things? This is ridiculous to even bring up stuff like this as an example. You cannot get a teaching license with a past like this. So your point is completely ridiculous! Ok, well what about other sins? What if the teacher weighs 400 lbs? Gluttony is also a sin we seem to ignore. What if the teacher was divorced? Or she had committed some other sins that weren't criminal? What if she didn't honor her father and her mother? What if she went to see the Chippendale dancers 5 yrs ago and stuffed money into their G strings? And, on and on.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:53:43 GMT -5
Oped I am not sure if you are talking to me or not, but Shooby was talking about what if the teacher had this past. I do not know of a single state that will license anyone with a criminal record to be a teacher.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:54:39 GMT -5
OK, a technically "Non criminal " past. Things that you might consider morally wrong and sinful that were committed in the past. Sheesh.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Sept 1, 2012 9:54:56 GMT -5
...many posters are chasing a wild goose... to which lone alluded... our OP described an event that is a legitimate concern... he and other school parents have to decide what to do with this new information... lambasting them about not being "christian enough" to suit outsiders' bias is pointless...
[steps of soapbox]
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:55:32 GMT -5
Of course, and i already addressed that point.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:56:07 GMT -5
This is ridiculous to even bring up stuff like this as an example. You cannot get a teaching license with a past like this. So your point is completely ridiculous! Ok, well what about other sins? What if the teacher weighs 400 lbs? Gluttony is also a sin we seem to ignore. What if the teacher was divorced? Or she had committed some other sins that weren't criminal? What if she didn't honor her father and her mother? What if she went to see the Chippendale dancers 5 yrs ago and stuffed money into their G strings? And, on and on. Well since I don't make it a habit to pry into every aspect of someone's life...I don't know how I would know half of that....nor would I care.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 9:56:24 GMT -5
I would agree if this wasn't a church school we were talking about. I would assume in a church school that the teachers would be required to live up to the standards of that church, whatever that may be. Um, the ENTIRE message of Christianity is that no human being can live up to the standards.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 10:01:05 GMT -5
Lone - If all we are going to do is "agree or disagree" then it should just be a closed "yes or no" type poll. I thought the point of discussion was to discuss! And, perhaps through discussion and various points of view, that may give the OP food for thought, or not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 10:01:57 GMT -5
Oped I am not sure if you are talking to me or not, but Shooby was talking about what if the teacher had this past. I do not know of a single state that will license anyone with a criminal record to be a teacher. Oh, I agree. I'm just considering at what point knowing someone's past might be important. You are correct, a person with that background wouldn't get a teaching cert. However, I also don't think all private schools have to hire certified teachers? Plus, if they were a vollunteer, aide, cook staff... anyone, my criteria is if they can be considered a danger to the child... much as the catagories we currently use when certifying a teacher, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 10:12:08 GMT -5
I would assume the 'church standards' would be to emulate the doctrine of Christ... which is what most of us have been saying... now, if you look at the teachings of Christ and think the most important value he taught was to not have sex outside of marriage... ok. I think the most important values are of compassion, forgiveness and non-judgement... I think that the school leader already demonstrated that hiring this woman was in keeping both with the standards of the school, and of the church.
foodie can disagree... and if he does he should take his child out of the schoool, and probably should homeschool so he can better control the child's influences.
Just FYI, this is why I don't belong to a church. I'm agnostic, but believe there is much in the teachings of Christ which are worth emulating. It just too often seems to me that the people within organized religion do their best to ignore what Jesus actually taught...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 10:13:21 GMT -5
Lone - If all we are going to do is "agree or disagree" then it should just be a closed "yes or no" type poll. I thought the point of discussion was to discuss! Okay, woman...meet me behind the school after it closes and we can duke it out. Seriously....discussion is good. I'm more of a black and white person and feel a need to always stay on track.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 10:14:28 GMT -5
Oh, I agree. I'm just considering at what point knowing someone's past might be important. You are correct, a person with that background wouldn't get a teaching cert. However, I also don't think all private schools have to hire certified teachers? Plus, if they were a vollunteer, aide, cook staff... anyone, my criteria is if they can be considered a danger to the child... much as the catagories we currently use when certifying a teacher, etc. But we're talking about a church school here, with different standards than other schools, right? These standards are probably the reason Foodie has chosen this school. And, again, if the school does not meet Foodie's standards, than he can go and offer a complaint and/or withdraw his child from the school.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 1, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -5
The Catholic faith is rich and complex.
I think Foodiedad needs to decide what the take away lesson is that he wants his daughter to learn in Catholic school.
Is it the umbrella lesson of "Do unto others as I have done unto you"?
Or, is it the simplistic, out-of-context "no premarital sex" "virgin on your wedding day" lesson?
Because if he is paying his money for the latter only (or even for simple heavy emphasis), he is missing a whole lot more important lessons, IMHO, and wasting his money and seriously short-changing his daughter's faith formation.
Just my 2 cents. As always, his, and your, mileage may vary.
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Post by Opti on Sept 1, 2012 10:26:19 GMT -5
I know the family status of all the teachers that DD has had, in fact, she has been babysat by the daughter of her 3rd grade teacher and the mom of one of her classmates is the sister of the first grade teacher. As for knowing for sure her marital status, one of the other parents asked her at the 'fun run' and was told that she hasn't been married. I think this would give you the opportunity to talk about values and that in your opinion her personal choice is second best versus being married, number one, or having an abortion. The ironic thing is if she had been a pro-choice heathen and had aborted the child this issue would have never come up. Not every person who comes into contact with kids, even teachers, IMO should be 100% perfect role models. The earlier kids learn people are imperfect and how to handle that the better in my opinion. If your personal stance is pro-life do you really want to show your kids how you look down on people who make the choice to have the child when they aren't in circumstances that are a happy marriage?
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 1, 2012 10:32:11 GMT -5
I would agree if this wasn't a church school we were talking about. I would assume in a church school that the teachers would be required to live up to the standards of that church, whatever that may be. A born and bred RC here. If you really want that DON'T go to a Catholic school! First of all most Catholic schools are part of the Diocese and are way too large to try and skirt laws on equal employment even if they wanted to. I have never seen one that did but just saying. My 3rd grad son's teacher last year has been teaching in public school for 22 years. She has bounced grades for all of it. She didn't have sex until she got married in her 40's for all I know. She never had any kids though. Turns out she hate them with a passion! I'd have traded teachers in a heart beat! IMO the best thing you can teach your kids is to MYOFB.
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Post by justme on Sept 1, 2012 10:45:44 GMT -5
I think the OP needs the context of how she told the class before he goes on a rager. He'll have to go directly to the teacher (as he should anyways) and ask her, as question his daughter could shine light on the horrors of teenage pregnancy that may have not entered her mind. After all, I would assume she has other teachers that also have kids so it wouldn't be something shocking for a teacher to have a kid.
Did the kids ask her if she has kids? (She'd have to say yes, lying is a sin no?) Did they have a round of "tell us about yourself" and her having a kid would hopefully be a big part of her life? Or did she say "hey class, I was knocked up as a teen and now I have a kid."?
It sounds like you'd rather her not tell the kids, and not bring her kid to any school functions and hide the kid.
Would you rather have a teacher that had an abortion at 19 (though she didn't tell her kids) or a teacher that found herself in a mess and followed church doctrine and had the kid teach your kid? I assume you believe abortion is murder, and therefore a mortal (did I get that right?) sin and would think that's a bigger sin (are there bigger and smaller sins?) than premarital sex.
FWIW - I can't recall which of my teachers had kids out of wedlock and which didn't...I probably couldn't tell you in high school whether my 4th grade teacher even had a kid (maybe not even her name!).
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Post by Opti on Sept 1, 2012 10:52:11 GMT -5
And for the record so no one feels exposed or singled out.. I am Episcopalian. We are pretty liberal compared to a lot of other Christian denominations... still Christian but not as rigid. Really? Based on this, it does seem Episcopalians teach "purity" and sex before marriage is bad in their church and schools. Lutherans also teach purity before marriage but except in the more strict synods, i.e. Wisconsin, I don't think many parents would get all bent out of shape over an unmarried teacher. This is 2012 not 1950. Perhaps there are priests that have crossed your path that have abused children, but because you aren't aware of it, its not visible you aren't upset. It wasn't till I moved to NJ that I realized in general Catholics while possessing the stricter moral code, in practice more Catholic girls and boys went wild sexually than the Lutherans I know. If you get hung up on appearances like many Catholics are you get IMO the bad nasty behaviors that are more common to Catholics than other more flexible religions. You have Catholics who have anal pre-marital sex because "it doesn't count". (No Lutheran I grew up with would stupid enough to believe that!) You have couples who stay married and cheat on each other because divorce is forbidden. Some go further and eventually kill their spouse, but lets face it the fact they don't divorce doesn't mean they aren't sinning they are just sinning in a way that is not easily discovered by those who only care about the appearance of being good. So in the end you have to decide whether you prefer the appearance of being good and think one teacher will have a greater impact than you as a parent - or you could follow what Jesus taught forgive her and use it as a lesson for your child.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 10:53:31 GMT -5
I get what foodie is saying. He is paying to provide a certain ethical/religious framework for his child's education. The teacher, who's authority he is supposed to reinforce with his child and supposed to hold up as a role model, visibly goes against what he wants his child to learn.
The what if she had an abortion/drank/stripped argument doesn't work with me because the kids wouldn't know about it. In this case they do.
If it's so concerning to foodie he should have a quiet meeting with the school principal and ask about the hiring process and ethical criteria. The teacher may have been widowed, divorced, raped, or other things. Is there another teacher available at the same grade level?
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 1, 2012 11:06:28 GMT -5
I get what foodie is saying. He is paying to provide a certain ethical/religious framework for his child's education. The teacher, who's authority he is supposed to reinforce with his child and supposed to hold up as a role model, visibly goes against what he wants his child to learn. The what if she had an abortion/drank/stripped argument doesn't work with me because the kids wouldn't know about it. In this case they do. If it's so concerning to foodie he should have a quiet meeting with the school principal and ask about the hiring process and ethical criteria. The teacher may have been widowed, divorced, raped, or other things. Is there another teacher available at the same grade level? The Catholic church is a really large employer. They have to adhere to the same laws as any other employer. They don't get to ask illegal questions any more than the public school would. Add in the fact that most religious schools pay way less than public and you get a much smaller group trying to teach there. If she is a good teacher the students parents should thank their lucky stars to have gotten her IMO. This is a witch hunt IMO and witch hunts rarely end well.
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Post by Opti on Sept 1, 2012 11:23:59 GMT -5
I get what foodie is saying. He is paying to provide a certain ethical/religious framework for his child's education. The teacher, who's authority he is supposed to reinforce with his child and supposed to hold up as a role model, visibly goes against what he wants his child to learn. The what if she had an abortion/drank/stripped argument doesn't work with me because the kids wouldn't know about it. In this case they do. If it's so concerning to foodie he should have a quiet meeting with the school principal and ask about the hiring process and ethical criteria. The teacher may have been widowed, divorced, raped, or other things. Is there another teacher available at the same grade level? Which though is why some people have the negative view of Catholics. A worse sex related sin, abortion, is actually considered more OK in this instance simply because you may not know about it. I understand it would be just as bad if it came up in conversation but it and stripping are not something kids are likely to ask a teacher about. Whether they have kids seems to be a big one and a question I have been asked in at least one of my last interviews even though its supposed to be illegal to ask. The Catholic religion to me is the least Christian of the Christian religions as it has historically been about appearances and political power more than WWJD. Either forgiveness and compassion are your higher guiding principles or they are not. Jesus ate with tax collectors and hookers. FoodieDad will do what he feels moved to do. I hope it is either to use the situation to his advantage or find a more strict appearance based religious school. I hope he doesn't choose to find his pitchfork. I think that might be a bad choice if God really does question you about how you treated others after you die.
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