shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Aug 22, 2012 12:47:01 GMT -5
I’d meant for this to be shorter…The more and more I see comments on this board about the obesity epidemic in the country, and compare them to comments on this board about the debt epidemic, the more I realize that there isn’t just a passing similarity between the two. It’s not just that the language of dieting can be used for debt reduction, etc, it is that they are pretty much the exact same problem, just manifested in different ways. However, people that have struggled with one and not the other rarely seem to see the correlation. And people who have never struggled with either just don’t get it at all. Am I necessarily an expert on either? No, but DH and I have managed to get rid of all consumer debt (we still have student loans and the mortgage) and are maintaining a lifestyle where we are not adding any more debt. I am currently taking the lessons I learned in that process and applying them directly to my weight loss goals. So expert, no, but personal experience with both- yes. (I have a blog post up about how my experience budgeting is helping me with my weight loss goal. You can read it here: erinshanendoah.com/dogatemywallet/?p=867 ) I think the first thing everyone seems to forget in either case is that no one gains 100lbs overnight. You can go into major debt instantly with student loans, car loans, and mortgages, but the problems most people have with debt don’t happen overnight either. It’s a slow building. Slow enough that it seems kind of natural, that while you know you’re gaining weight or getting deeper in debt, it doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. i.e. – everyone gains weight as they get older, everyone has debt. Either way, you’re sleep walking while the problem gets worse. Some people wake up on their own. Others are shocked awake by a sudden change in their lives. Either way, the problem is now so big, it can seem insurmountable. When you’re 100lbs over weight, does losing 5lbs really matter? When you have $10,000 in credit card debt, will paying off that one $500 card make a difference? The problem can feel hopeless, and it takes a lot of emotional energy just to take the first step. Before taking the first actual proactive step, most people look for a magic bullet first. They play the lottery, hoping, not even for the mega millions, but for just a few thousand that will help them get ahead without changing their spending habits. They look for the diet pill (or additive) that will help them lose weight without dieting or exercising. We want an easy out. After all, getting in trouble was easy- we did it while sleep walking, shouldn’t we be able to solve the problem easily too? Once we admit to ourselves that this is going to take work, we still want it to be quick. We don’t mind painful, as long as it can be quick. But once the initial problem is solved, we want to be able to go back to how things were before. Everyone talks about yo-yo dieting. There are some biological factors that make keeping weight off more difficult, but the biggest factor is often that once people reach their target weight, the “diet” is off and they go back to their old habits. We all know people (have perhaps been the people) who have paid off their credit cards only to go out and run them back up again. The most difficult struggles come not in initially losing the weight or paying off the debt, but maintaining the new normal. Yo-yo dieting is actually worse, health wise, than just staying fat. Yo-yo debt repayment may not have the same type of consequences, but it is emotionally draining. While many people on this board recommend crash budgets for people trying to get out of debt (and by this I mean the people who say- no cell phone, no cable, use the internet at the library, etc) the truth is, the crash experience doesn’t actually help them set the parameters for what a new normal would look like. They don’t really get the experience of living on a sustainable budget. So once their debt is paid off, it’s like getting a windfall, and we all know what the “average” person does with a windfall-blows it and gets right back in trouble. Now, the nice thing about debt is that once it is paid off, it’s gone. You really do have more money in your budget. But the key is to make sure you’re smart enough with that “extra” money to prevent yourself from needing to go back into debt. (I’m not talking about leveraging debt, I’m talking about failing to institute an emergency fund or plan for the expected, but not every day, expenses.) Dieting is a little harder. Biologically, our bodies want us to be at the heaviest we have ever been. (Remember, that even now, in many places, people do not have year round access to safe and nutritional food. Storing fat is the body’s natural defense against starvation.) Someone who once weighed 200lbs, at 150lbs, will never be able to eat as many calories in a day as someone who has never weighed more than 150lbs. Even more than with debt repayment, dieting is about finding a new normal. Crash dieting doesn’t work. You have to find a calorie level and exercise level that can be maintained. Sure, you’ll get a little bit back when you’ve reached your maintenance weight vs still needing to lose weight, but you will never be able to go back to what it was before. And even if we admit that solving our debt or weight problem is about finding a new normal, and allowing for it to take time. We still often want to “fix” it in less time than it took us to get there to begin with. Most people struggling with debt aren’t struggling with just one loan, they have multiple loans and credit card debts that took years to build up. People take years to gain weight. And yet, everyone wants to fix their problems in less time than it took them to get in trouble to begin with. (Here is another point where we, as a society seem to go easier on debt. If someone tells us they have a 5 year plan to pay off their debt, we think they are being smart and responsible about it. If they told us they had a 2 year plan to lose 100lbs- we’d challenge them to watch The Biggest Loser and do it quicker, despite the fact that medically, weight loss goals should be 2-8lbs a month, and 100lbs in 24 months is just over 4lbs a month- so a smart and safe weight loss plan.) It does not surprise me that our country is struggling with debt and obesity at the same time. And it does not surprise me that people have the same struggles paying off debt as they do losing weight. I’d just like more people to realize that doing either isn’t always as easy as we all want it to be.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 22, 2012 12:51:47 GMT -5
Good topic.
And not only are these things not as easy as we want them to be, but both involve some major psychological hurdles. In one sense, it's all about the numbers (calories in < calories out, snowballing CC debt), and in another sense, it's not about the numbers at all.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Aug 22, 2012 12:59:42 GMT -5
Mid: True, a lot of people struggle with emotional spending and emotional eating. Both can be addictions as well as chronic problems.
Of course, I got this all typed out and posted- and now I'm going to a two hour meeting.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Aug 22, 2012 13:06:27 GMT -5
I’d meant for this to be shorter…It’s not just that the language of dieting can be used for debt reduction, etc, it is that they are pretty much the exact same problem, just manifested in different ways. I agree with your premise, except when obesity is caused by something other than no self control and eating bad foods. I have PCOS. One of my symptoms is weight gain/obesity. Some people with PCOS can loose maintain weight, and other can never loose weight eating 1500 calories and exercising an hour a day. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001408/
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 22, 2012 13:12:53 GMT -5
Couldn't a fair correlation be healthcare-related costs? Some people are obese because they overeat, and some people are in debt because they live beyond their means. Some people are obese because of physical/hormonal factors beyond their direct control (PCOS, thyroid issues), and some people are in debt because of environmental factors beyond their direct control (uninsured medical expenses).
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 22, 2012 13:29:14 GMT -5
I am a tall, FAT, old guy and I don't owe anything. So much for that theory.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 22, 2012 13:33:13 GMT -5
I am a tall, FAT, old guy and I don't owe anything. So much for that theory. Maybe you're the exception that proves the rule? In any event, I don't think Shane was making a blanket assertion, just drawing an analogy.
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Waffle
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Post by Waffle on Aug 22, 2012 13:36:34 GMT -5
I think she was saying that there are similar thought process involved in overeating/losing weight and overspending/getting out of debt - not that everyone who is overweight is also in debt, or vice versa.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 22, 2012 13:37:45 GMT -5
I love the comparison! Great summary, and I agree with so much of what you said. One of the big differences between debt and weight gain, is that hopefully as you age your ability to earn should go up. That is not universally true, but isn't unusual. If you are able to gain more as you age, your ability to get out of debt gets easier. This knife cuts both ways, as many people use it as an excuse to spend now and pay later. However, as we age our ability to maintain a healthy weight almost universally decreases. So, people who were rail thin as teenagers are shocked that they are now 32 and obese - after all, they didn't change a thing!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 22, 2012 13:39:17 GMT -5
She didn't say that if you are fat, you are in debt. She said that being overweight and being debt have more in common than one might think, and some people struggle with neither, some with one or the other, and some with both problems. You fall into the "one or other" category.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2012 13:42:07 GMT -5
Couldn't a fair correlation be healthcare-related costs? Some people are obese because they overeat, and some people are in debt because they live beyond their means. Some people are obese because of physical/hormonal factors beyond their direct control (PCOS, thyroid issues), and some people are in debt because of environmental factors beyond their direct control (uninsured medical expenses). I think it all boils down to self control. Whether it be eating or spending or whatever it is out of control. Self Control, why is it missing in action?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 22, 2012 14:03:48 GMT -5
You forget about the social compentant of eating and spending. I can't be the only person who seems to have atleast one 'social get together' every week that seems to be centered around food/drinks. There's a lot of pressure to conform when out with a group - you don't want to be singled out because you only had 4 chicken wings (instead of the 20 everyone else ate) or because you're not drinking as much as everyone else. There's the KUWJ thing on the money side.
I do agree that maintaining one's weight and maintaining one's money do use similiar skills to do.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 22, 2012 14:10:52 GMT -5
People single you out for eating 4 chicken wings?
I do have a lot of social things that involve food, but I don't think anyone bags on anyone for not eating. Eh - maybe we do and I'm insensitive to it. I'll try and pay attention. If I do it, it would be unintentional like "Hey - did you try the ribs?! Fantastic. And, did you see that Shirley brought her famous cookies?! You just have to try one." And then later I would ask you twice if you had the cookies yet. Not because I'm trying to be an ass, but quite the opposite - I'm trying to be a generous friend.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Aug 22, 2012 14:20:17 GMT -5
Well. I am paying off everything. Tomorrow...maybe. So next week my waiste should be like a bee'z waiste?
WAAAAAIT! Do I get boobs be smaller? 'FK! How does that work???
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2012 14:21:28 GMT -5
You forget about the social compentant of eating and spending. I can't be the only person who seems to have atleast one 'social get together' every week that seems to be centered around food/drinks. There's a lot of pressure to conform when out with a group - you don't want to be singled out because you only had 4 chicken wings (instead of the 20 everyone else ate) or because you're not drinking as much as everyone else. There's the KUWJ thing on the money side. I do agree that maintaining one's weight and maintaining one's money do use similiar skills to do. Instant gratification.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Aug 22, 2012 14:22:57 GMT -5
I'm 39 and was overweight my entire adult life until a couple years ago. OTOH, I've always been pretty good about debt (never cc debt, though I did have SL and small car debt). I agree with the OP that the logic is the same for both types - I just personally am more prone to emotional eating whereas I never do emotional spending. Even in the last two years as I've maintained my size 4/6, it is MUCH harder for me to do that than to limit my spending. Money just isn't my weakness. But I think the "step away from society's ways" and "only use what you need, not what you want" are just as applicable for food as for money.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Aug 22, 2012 15:35:25 GMT -5
Blue: Sorry, the limit on title length may have made things a little confusing. I am not saying that everyone who is fat has debt or that people with no debt are skinny. Mostly, I'm talking about the ways people get into debt or gain too much weight and the skills it takes to break the cycle. My main point is that are posters here who have talked about their struggles with maintaining a budget and staying out of debt who talk about losing weight like it's just so easy to eat fewer calories than you expend. It's just as easy to spend less than you make. And we all know that for some people, neither of those things are actually easy. We need to try and apply empathy.
giramomma: I agree that weight can be a medical issue for multiple reasons. I am currently logging every calorie I eat and every bit of exercise I do (just like I track all of our income and spending) because I might have a medical issue that will make it very difficult for me to lose weight. Of course, the only way for the doctor to know if there is an issue is for her to know what I've been eating and doing and compare it to how much weight I'm losing. Some people, though, can end up in debt without it being "their fault" as well, though. As Mid said, it could be through medical expenses (even if you have insurance, a major illness can place one seriously in debt). It could also be through a spouse who was lying about money and then died or divorced you. I still think a correlation can be drawn there because in either case, you likely need help, and you shouldn't be afraid to go seek it out. Medical bankruptcy exists as a seperate item from regular bankruptcy for a reason. Or you could need to go to the MD and get teh right balance of meds. To me, the answer in both cases is, if you need help, get help, and don't be afraid to take advantage of programs out there that will help.
thyme: True, they do kind of work in the opposite direction. Easier to be skinny when you're young. Easier to be debt free when you're older.
justapple: I don't know that I can say it's all about self control. Self control is certainly a strong aspect of both, but there are other factors. I see instant gratification as one of the barriers to getting out of debt or losing weight. We want what we want now, and if it can't happen now, well then what's the point.
atsiaru: The social aspect can be huge. And it's not just within your group of friends. DH and I wouldn't have been able to get rid of all of our consumer debt if we hadn't both been willing to work on it. I won't be able to lose weight if DH isn't supporting me in the process (as he is the primary cook in our house). I am very lucky that DH, while not going on a diet himself, is incredibly supportive of my desire to lose weight, and is actively working to cook healthier meals so that I can still eat normal sized portions (ie not feel hungry constantly) and not break my calorie budget. I was at Firebird's baby shower this last weekend, and her SIL did look a little confused when I brought out my own bag of chips. (DH has weighed out 100 calorie baggies of chips for me) instead of eating the chips and salsa provided. It's not that I was trying to hurt her feelings or not be part of the group, but if I wanted to be able to have a piece of cake, I needed to control how many calories I had before hand. (I did not end up staying for cake, but I did get to have some absolutely delicious chicken tortilla casserole.)
lonewolf: Food is actually a big thing for us. DH loves to cook. He loves to try new recipes. We enjoy having people over for BBQs, jamabalaya, or test kitchen days. We go to friends' houses where food is as much a part of the get together as anything else. Neither of us wants to stop doing these things. I want to be able to have a piece of cake at a baby shower or retirement party and not worry about. I'm not trying to way 130 or even 150. I'd just like to get to under 200lbs. I think I should be able to have a piece of cake now and then. And that's why it's important that he's on board with me, and why it's important that we work hard on establishing a new normal- something I can maintain not just over the 13 months I'm giving myself to reach my weightloss goal, but for the rest of our lives. Food doesn't have to stop being important, or a part of our social lives. We have to figure out a way to incorporate it in a healthy way.
skinnykids: Definitely. Some people have an easier time handling money than they do food and vice versa. I eat when I'm bored, but I don't shop when I'm bored. So emotional triggers trigger different actions. The correlation I refer to in the title isn't that obesity and debt go together, but that they are, on many levels, caused and cured, by the same types of thoughts and actions. And that people who struggel with one, but not the other, should stop and think before they claim people with the other problem should just solve it- as if it were as easy as eating a piece of pie or buying a new pair of shoes.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 22, 2012 15:37:44 GMT -5
I had an eating disorder throughout most of high school and college (anorexia/exercise bulima). I didn't worry much at all about money at that time - 90% of my waking thoughts revolved around food. Sometimes I wonder if my obsession with control was never really resolved, but just transferred to money.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Aug 22, 2012 15:49:50 GMT -5
Mid: Maybe you switched. Physically, it's certainly much healthier and a good trade off to make, but I also think you've learned some new coping skills because I know you've mentioned that your'e able to compromise with your DH about some things money related, so you have ceded a little bit of control.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 22, 2012 15:59:00 GMT -5
Overeating and overspending are also a lot of fun. Crap is delicious. Its fun to have stuff NOW rather than later.
I enjoyed the OP. I identified with the "sleepwalking" part of getting into debt and/or gaining weight. For me, it was more me being passive aggressive because DW didn't see things my way. But I fulfilled my prophecy -- she sure sees it now and admits I was right. Small consolation...
...:::"DH loves to cook. He loves to try new recipes. We enjoy having people over for BBQs, jamabalaya, or test kitchen days.":::...
There are times I wondered whether my cooking is directly responsible for DW gaining a lot of weight and being unable to lose it. Then again, all those times that I went walking/running and she stayed home. All those bike rides she didn't want to join me for. All those times I hit the treadmill while she napped...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2012 16:01:12 GMT -5
justapple: I don't know that I can say it's all about self control. Self control is certainly a strong aspect of both, but there are other factors. I see instant gratification as one of the barriers to getting out of debt or losing weight. We want what we want now, and if it can't happen now, well then what's the point.
______________________________
I'm pretty certain it is about self control. It seems to be the norm now to look for other reasons and find something to blame, sigh...the victim thing again perhaps.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2012 16:02:36 GMT -5
People single you out for eating 4 chicken wings? I do have a lot of social things that involve food, but I don't think anyone bags on anyone for not eating. Eh - maybe we do and I'm insensitive to it. I'll try and pay attention. If I do it, it would be unintentional like "Hey - did you try the ribs?! Fantastic. And, did you see that Shirley brought her famous cookies?! You just have to try one." And then later I would ask you twice if you had the cookies yet. Not because I'm trying to be an ass, but quite the opposite - I'm trying to be a generous friend. Nobody bags on you for not having a nice car, either. The Jones' don't care what you've got, you care about what the Jones' have and your ability to have it too. I work hard, why can't I have a nice new car? The neighbors have a new car. I worked out this morning, why can't I eat more chicken wings? My skinny friend ate 12 of them.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Aug 22, 2012 16:04:17 GMT -5
Mid: True, a lot of people struggle with emotional spending and emotional eating. Both can be addictions as well as chronic problems. Of course, I got this all typed out and posted- and now I'm going to a two hour meeting. These problems are no different than drinking problems IMO. You don't just wake up one day wanting a 5th of Vodka nor do you wake up one day 100 lbs. over weight, etc. They all mask other problems that people are trying to deal with. Fix the underlying problem and you can fix the outcomes of people trying to make themselves feel better. Better put than I just said.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 22, 2012 16:04:38 GMT -5
My family likes to eat, but we are all pretty healthy eaters. I prefer to call us "balanced" eaters - but let's go with healthy for ease. The thing about being more of an upscale "foodie" is that the food is often more appropriate. A $100 meal at a fancy restarant has smaller portions, higher quality, better balance and far less calories than $4 spent on the McD's dollar menu. So, my family talks often about the places and things we have eaten, we aren't overweight.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Aug 22, 2012 16:05:49 GMT -5
WWBG: I don't think DH's cooking is why I gained weight (even though he's an awesome cook). It took me 12 years to gain 40lbs. Now I'm trying to lose 65lbs in 13 months. But him being the cook is why, when I made this decision, I told him I needed his help. It's the little changes that matter. We're making curry with greek yogurt instead of coconut milk. Or, if coconut milk is what we want, we'll go buy the light version at the regular grocery store instead of stocking up on the full fat stuff at CostCo. He will remove the skin from my chicken before he even cooks it. And, as I also mentioned, he went through and portioned out chips and crackers into 100 calorie bags for me, so that I can just grab and go for my lunch in the mornings. Again, if you're in a couple, you can't get out of debt alone. I don't think it's easy to lose weight alone, either. Having both people on board (even if one isn't dieting) makes a huge difference.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 22, 2012 16:07:16 GMT -5
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 22, 2012 16:07:36 GMT -5
...or do we have an "eating celery" emoticon?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 22, 2012 16:08:00 GMT -5
...although popcorn is cheaper...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 22, 2012 16:08:22 GMT -5
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 22, 2012 16:12:34 GMT -5
I agree that you need your life partner to be your partner in major life changes. There are a couple of things that I had to buy into when my husband lost weight - first off, he started riding his bike - that takes a significant amount of time and money. He goes out for long rides every weekend. He can be gone for 5 hours, and so I have to plan accordingly. Plus, he bought thousands of dollars worth of equipment, clothing, etc. (Not to mention the fact that I have to listen to him drone on and on about it. ) As for eating, our dinners were often healthy enough - but his lunches were ridiculous. He would go out to fast food, or the bar and grill and get 1200 calories for lunch. So, a majority of changes happened there. For dinner, he cut portion size mostly. But, we did make changes in some of the things we kept in the house, and I worked to make sure he was comfortable with all of our meals. It was a change for our family, but he was diriving it, and we were supportive.
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