Correlations Between Debt and Obesity

[shanendoah]

apple: I don't feel like I'm trying to shift the blame here, but I am trying to look for all the causes and find a solution that addresses each of them. There are habits and emotional triggers that we aren't always aware of. I did realize my "snack when bored" trigger years ago and have been on a very long journey to try and get past that. But if I'm bored, I'll still go look through the cupboards, even if I don't eat anything.
Other times we have developed habits that we don't quite see. I keep Wintergreen lifesavers at my desk for myself and others. The first couple of days I was keeping my food diary, I would realize, halfway through a lifesaver, that I was eating one. I had no memory of getting that lifesaver out of the tin or putting it in my mouth- it was just there. Once I realized that, yes, it just took self control to stop and pay attention (I forced myself to go a week without a lifesaver), but the habit didn't develop because of lack of self control.
People who have medical issues don't get fat or go into debt because of them over lack of self control.
Yes, self control is a component in both getting out of debt and losing weight- a very important one at that, but it is not the only component, nor is a lack of self control the only cause.
And, as in Mid's case, the need to have too much control can actually be damaging both physically and emotionally.

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2012 16:08:00 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...although popcorn is cheaper...

Not where I live. Popcorn is freaking expensive!

But its a nice thought to have a healthier emoticon. Jeeeze, not chocolates either.

[shanendoah]

thyme: I think it's great that your family was supportive and willing to make changes to support your DH.

[thyme4change]

I did realize my "snack when bored" trigger years ago and have been on a very long journey to try and get past that. But if I'm bored, I'll still go look through the cupboards, even if I don't eat anything.

My son snacks when he is bored, and I'm trying to figure out how to help him combat that. He is also a young, active, growing boy. So, I'm not sure if he is actually hungry, or just bored. The other day he was standing in front of the open fridge and I asked him to go get Monopoly and I would play with him. He didn't mention food until breakfast. I think I'm going to play a lot of Monopoly over the next year or two.

[shanendoah]

And popcorn, if made at home (not prepackaged) can actually be a pretty healthy snack.

[thyme4change]

thyme: I think it's great that your family was supportive and willing to make changes to support your DH.

;D It totally worked out for me! Now I have a super-hottie husband.

Oh, also, when he lost the weight, he stopped snoring - so now I sleep better. SCORE!

[shanendoah]

thyme: I honestly believe it's the same type of trigger that leads to smoking. You're bored- eating gives you something to do with both your mouth and your hands.
If you get tired of Monopoly, may I suggest a game called Dominion. It's card based. A single game can be played in as little as 15 minutes, and it can be different every time you play, as different card combinations come up.
I played a lot of solitaire (with actual cards) and my parents bought me some of the 100 games of solitaire books. Of course, my favorite was a solitaire version of cribbage that my grandfather taught me.

[shanendoah]

thyme: A win/win situation. Can't beat that. (Well, Looney might try).

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2012 13:29:14 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

I am a tall, FAT, old guy and I don't owe anything. So much for that theory.

Same as me...

[dividend]

I think another important parallel is that one size does not fit all, in either case.
Sure, managing your finances does boil down to spending vs. income, just like managing your weight comes down to calories in vs. calories out, but different people definitely need different approaches.
Weight watchers works great for some people, Paleo works great for others, some people can simply count calories of food/excercise.
I like a very detailed category based budgeting with cashflow projection scenarios, where all of my transactions are logged appropriately as they happen. If my little brother tried to budget that way, he would throw the computer accross the room. I'm helping him learn how to budget, and so far he's been doing good by taking a weekly allotment in cash for anything that's not a "bill."

[Firebird]

Aug 22, 2012 15:37:44 GMT -5 midjd said:

I had an eating disorder throughout most of high school and college (anorexia/exercise bulima). I didn't worry much at all about money at that time - 90% of my waking thoughts revolved around food.

Sometimes I wonder if my obsession with control was never really resolved, but just transferred to money.

That's very interesting, Mid, because I've had much the same thought! When I was anorexic, I was obsessing about food practically every waking moment. That's how starvation works. And similarly, when DH and I try to cut back our budgets, we feel that deprivation and it's pretty rough.

Getting yourself to a working model of financial health is, I think, VERY similar to getting to a working model of physical health. And in both cases, if you're constantly focused on what you're missing, your life will *not* be much fun. Great analogy.

[Firebird]

thyme: I honestly believe it's the same type of trigger that leads to smoking. You're bored- eating gives you something to do with both your mouth and your hands.

Gum. I went through more than a pack a day when I was anorexic - which I'm obviously not recommending but I've heard of people chewing a lot of it when they were losing weight in a healthy way also. It keeps your mouth busy and gives you the "chew and swallow" sensation we associate with food. Good way to avoid unnecessary snacking between mealtimes.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Again, if you're in a couple, you can't get out of debt alone.":::...

I'm not so sure about that. I think that it is much more difficult when your spouse is un-supportive, or even actively working against you. But sometimes you HAVE to go it alone. Sometimes the results you get by doing it alone speak for themselves. Your spouse certainly has a huge impact on your life and your schedule. The only time we both lost significant weight was when we both went to the gym together.

I recently sat through a "who moved my cheese" training. I loved the part where Haw came to terms with the fact that Hem was simply not going to change in any time frame worth waiting for, and the only way that Haw would EVER get ahead is by cutting loose from his friend and going it alone.

I'm not saying divorce or anything, but sometimes you just have to leave people to their own destructive patterns and go seek the results on your own. DW is a grown woman. I'm not going to control what she eats. I'm sick of lecturing her. She knows what gets results (because she's gotten them before). Until she is willing to do it, nothing will change.

[shanendoah]

WWBG: You are right. I should have said that if you are in a couple, it is much harder to get out of debt, or lose weight, if your partner is not supportive. It is possible.
And no, lecturing your wife won't help. DH has never lectured me on weight, but my mother did. She tried everything under the sun to try and get me to actively lose weight. Problem was, I'd seen her spend most of my life on some sort of a diet or another, and it never made her happier. So nothing she could do or say would motivate me. My first goal was always to be happy with who I was as a person and to be happy in my life.
I've gotten to that point. I am very happy in my life. And now I've decided that I want to look better than I did on my wedding day for my 10th wedding anniversary. But that is total internal motivation. If my mother had made that suggestion, I'd probably be all against it.

But I would ask, kind of like we were in one of cawiau's threads, I'd ask if your wife might be depressed. Losing weight and keeping it off is tough- I'm not saying it isn't, but it's much, much harder not only to lose the weight but to have the motivation to do so if you are depressed. (Which is different that being unhappy with the way you look.)

[Deleted]

I have a theory about the brain. Don't know if it is true scientifically, but my experience with depression tells me -

People have different layers of functioning. When your mental health is bad, you can only basically function. Even things like brushing your teeth or showering require a lot of effort. In this state, I felt absolutely NO creativity, boredom, or any other more advanced feelings. I felt crappy and overwhelmed and ganged up on all the dang time - even though it was illogical. I ate whatever I wanted and while trying to be more healthy I would still snack and had a hard time resisting what I wanted.

When I feel a bit better, then I start to want to shower more, clean the house more often, and when I get really well I know it because my creative side returns and I start looking for something to paint or knit or whatever. I have lost about 10 pounds this month on anti-depressants. It isn't the medication itself, it is that I am much better now able to cope with life and that gives me more resistance to eating junk foods. I also feel better, so I go out and do more. This extra movement helps keep weight off as well.

I don't really see obesity as being about some childhood repression or a lack of self control. I think it is about how well your brain is working on a more biological and chemical level. When you feel good, and have stable mental health, then you do things that cause you to weigh less. When you are not well, you can't care about it, so you eat what you want.

I think debt is the same type of deal. When I was unwell, I couldn't sit and earn money. I was more depressed from having zero money... Now that I feel better, I want to work because I am bored again and I need the cash. I feel better, and my budget is improving. It's all connected.

[thyme4change]

When your mental health is bad, you can only basically function. Even things like brushing your teeth or showering require a lot of effort. In this state, I felt absolutely NO creativity, boredom, or any other more advanced feelings. I felt crappy and overwhelmed and ganged up on all the dang time - even though it was illogical.

Crap - this is kinda how I feel now, except I push through all the motions.

[Firebird]

I don't really see obesity as being about some childhood repression or a lack of self control. I think it is about how well your brain is working on a more biological and chemical level. When you feel good, and have stable mental health, then you do things that cause you to weigh less. When you are not well, you can't care about it, so you eat what you want.

I don't know if I agree with this. Your premise suggests that anyone who is obese must be mentally unhealthy. What about people who are obese/overweight and mentally normal? There are a bunch of them.

Likewise, there are tons of skinny people who are batshit crazy.

I can see where there's a correlation between depression and obesity (and I believe they have been medically linked but I'm not sure about that) but extrapolating that to say that obesity is "not about" X or Y because it's about Z is, to me, overly simplistic.

[shanendoah]

Depression and obesity are linked. However, not everyone who is obese is depressed. I have had probably one bout of actual depression in my life- and it was the "normal" kind that I was able to get over with time, and that most adults experience occassionally. I have been overweight since shortly after the onset of puberty.
I think for some people, depression is certainly a cause for obesity. For many, many people, though, myself included, it's just not really a factor.

[Firebird]

BTW, shanendoah, the cake was quite yummy. I ate part of my daughter's face Sorry you missed it. But I'm very glad you came.

[Tiny]

Well, if I'm not careful (and being mindful) I turn to snacks/eating when I'm bored, tired, cold, trying to avoid doing something, and sometimes when I'm actually thirsty. I suspect that people sometimes spend money based on 'emotional' or 'physical' states - being tired or hungry while grocery shopping (or any other kind of shopping) may result in spending more money on stuff - because your 'defenses' are down (buying something because you don't want to put it back - and maybe you really do want it, or buying more food than you really need or the more expense stuff because you deserve it - you're tired which is proof you work hard... )

New coping skills are a must. Now when I'm bored and start jonesing for candy bar I usually realize I'm bored and not hungry so I go and find something else to do. Boredom/ennui is my biggest problem that and being tired and not realzing I should just go to sleep.

I think this applies to money as well - I'm sure people have 'autopilot' things they spend on - a new Wizbot comes on the market so it must be time to buy a new Wizbot! Or never reviewing one's fixed expenses - when you keep a gym membership even though you haven't gone to the gym in a year, or having too much cell phone plan or not reviewing ones car insurance/house insurance... complacancy can be expensive.

I'm not sure how that falls under self control... a bad 'script' for what to do when bored (eat some chips or go internet shopping!) or tired (having some food will maybe make me feel 'energized' and I can keep doing whatever I'm doing instead of going to bed) or going along mindlessly (not reviewing your expenses) isn't necessarily an indication of not having self control. Well, I don't think it is.

[midjd]

Aug 22, 2012 17:19:30 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I don't really see obesity as being about some childhood repression or a lack of self control. I think it is about how well your brain is working on a more biological and chemical level. When you feel good, and have stable mental health, then you do things that cause you to weigh less. When you are not well, you can't care about it, so you eat what you want.

I don't know if I agree with this. Your premise suggests that anyone who is obese must be mentally unhealthy. What about people who are obese/overweight and mentally normal? There are a bunch of them.

Likewise, there are tons of skinny people who are batshit crazy.

I can see where there's a correlation between depression and obesity (and I believe they have been medically linked but I'm not sure about that) but extrapolating that to say that obesity is "not about" X or Y because it's about Z is, to me, overly simplistic.

That's not quite how I took it...

I thought what Shasta was saying was that it's much harder to find the motivation to lose weight when you're depressed, because it's such a struggle just to get through the motions of the day. I agree with this.

There was a really good analogy I saw once on a blog about autoimmune disorders, but I'm sure the same would apply for depression. Say everyone starts out each day with a handful of spoons. Each spoon represents the energy needed to get through a task. Once the spoons are gone, you're done for the day.

For healthy people, the spoons are used pretty sparingly, and gone around bedtime.

For people with an autoimmune illness (or depression), getting out of bed takes 1 spoon. Brushing your teeth takes 1 spoon. Getting to work takes 2 spoons. Saying "hi" to a coworker takes 1 spoon. You get the idea.

(I think this is why one of the major indicators of depression is decrease in personal care. If it's gonna take half your "spoons" just to shower, get dressed, and brush your hair, best save the energy for something you HAVE to do.)

So in that analogy, you're way too busy using your spoons on mundane activities to ever get to the point of trying (or even wanting) to lose weight.

Maybe Shasta meant something different, but that's how I interpreted her comment.

[Firebird]

I thought what Shasta was saying was that it's much harder to find the motivation to lose weight when you're depressed, because it's such a struggle just to get through the motions of the day. I agree with this.

I do too, but she didn't stop there - she said she "didn't really see" how obesity might be linked to childhood repression or lack of self control. When I think in reality, both are ALSO common causes for obesity (as well as many others).

I agree that depression can definitely be a trigger for gaining weight for many people. It's just not the ONLY trigger for gaining weight.

[Deleted]

Mid got what I meant.

I meant that all of my life energy was used up by the idea of getting out of bed. I described it to the doctor as a combination of the flu, where you just end up having a day where you have to sleep and just feel crappy. You can take cold medication but eventually your body just says "no" and you lay around and then feel better. However, with depression, for me, I would awake and still feel crappy the next day...

The other half for me was the inability to muster the energy to do anything. It wasn't all the time, and that causes a ton of problems because I couldn't schedule anything or plan. I might wake up fine and be functional. I might wake up and be depressed in a very real chemical type way and unable to do anything for days on end.

I would wake up in the morning already in a bad place and was completely unable to find "happy" or anything like optimism. It just wasn't possible. No amount of "suck it up and look on the bright side" works. It is so hard to explain. I find a hard time relating to it when I am medicated and feeling well. It happens to me, but it's still hard to try to explain. It sounds stupid, but I can attest it is a very real thing.

I think other mental health issues cause all types of problems. I think you can just be fat, but I think most people have some sort of underlying reason, and often it might be depression or some other distraction that keeps you from being able to care about what you do or eat on a given day.

[cronewitch]

I have been dieting since about 1964 and lost a lot of weight and gained even more. I have will power sometimes for years at a time then it fails me. I have had many diets that lasted 30-50-80lbs then when they stop working I can't seem to stay on them. I have worked out sometimes for years and some times I just can't seem to start or continue.

The current diet has been since Feb and I am down about 52lbs but I can't make myself exercise. Just yesterday my body has started to feel like moving but the diet has stalled for a month or so. I hate stalls because what you eat or how much doesn't seem to make any difference. A stall will last months while I still stay on a diet or I can cheat and not gain anything so motivation gets really hard. I have been eating very little and no losing now so this week I am eliminating cheese and fruit to kick start the loss. Today I didn't eat soup, fruit or cheese and I am sitting here hungry. I was really sad watching my ISO eat dinner knowing I was going hungry. I had a bowl of air popped popcorn and a bell pepper and had a slice of bread with a tablespoon of peanut butter this morning and a slice of toast for lunch so it isn't like I didn't eat anything. The thing that is harder about dieting than budgeting is dieting is not eat and wait then when you are thin you use less calories so still need to eat less than you want. Budgeting you get a reward when you reach goals, my investment income is almost as much as my wages so every time I skip spending I get richer and can spend even more later

[Miss Tequila]

I think this is a great analogy...people can lack self-control in various areas of their life.

I also believe a very small % of our obese population truly has medical issues causing their weight issues. I have a slower than normal metabolism and it takes a lot of work on my part to stay healthy..counter that with my best friend who can eat and eat and still looks great. That doesn't mean that I just eat like her and blame it on my metabolism. Just like she can't spend like I do because I make a lot more than her...we all have to work wtih what we have.

[whoisjohngalt]

So, my personal observations...

My FIL is huge and has ALWAYS been in debt - it's simple COMPLETE lack of discipline and instant gratification thing for him. He told me so.

My parents have never been in debt and never been even slightly overweight - for them, it's knowing your limits and not going over it. They told me so.

Me - I've been in debt - some of it due to circumstances, mostly to a VERY nice shopping spree in Paris and Italy and Amsterdam.... I paid it off as soon as I could, never got into debt again and can't even think the thought.

I had a great body without doing ANYTHING, until I had kids. Now, I am bigger than a house and am "trying" to loose weight. But I have no self-discipline, so it's not going that great.

I did use to smoke. For 14 yrs. The ONLY way I was able to quit is by getting hypnotized. Again, didn't have the self-discipline.

So, based on that, I think it's just that - lack of discipline that causes those two things

[whoisjohngalt]

I wonder how people get to the point where they are eating bc they are bored/upset/happy, etc. When does it starts that food is tied to emotions, activities, etc.

My youngest is a HUGE baby, so I've been concern that he is turning into unhealthy, obese baby ask my dr if I should limit his food. He said that babies and kids self-regulate and don't eat unless they really ARE hungry. I should have asked when do we stop self-regulating ourselves.....

Lena

[whoisjohngalt]

I don't believe that. Like Thyme's son, I've seen our kids eat when bored.
Just the other day the 5 year old came up to me and wanted food.
He had totally forgotten until I told him, that he had just had a sandwich.
Look at ranch kids. They don't eat all day...they're too darn busy.

Well, so far, all my boys stop when they are full. Even if it's a cake or ice cream or lollipops. I hope it stays that way

Lena

[Formerly SK]

Lena, this is a good book on feeding your child:

www.amazon.com/How-Get-Your-Kid-Eat/dp/0915950839/ref=pd_sim_b_1

I've worked with feeding therapists for several years and YES children can overeat out of boredom (conversely they can also starve themselves to death if they have food phobias). Your dr's viewpoint is old school.

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2012 7:47:47 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

He said that babies and kids self-regulate and don't eat unless they really ARE hungry.

I don't believe that. Like Thyme's son, I've seen our kids eat when bored.
Just the other day the 5 year old came up to me and wanted food.
He had totally forgotten until I told him, that he had just had a sandwich.
Look at ranch kids. They don't eat all day...they're too darn busy.

I believe he was talking about infants and toddlers....say, kids under 3.