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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2012 15:06:34 GMT -5
The thing we may all be missing may be the size of the populations where the violence is occurring... in a city of 3 MILLION people is a murder a day really something out of the ordinanry? Does the media reporting on this stuff day and night make it seem out of the ordinary (like there's more violence)? ...also a good point...
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 15:09:42 GMT -5
"The thing we may all be missing may be the size of the populations where the violence is occurring... in a city of 3 MILLION people is a murder a day really something out of the ordinanry? Does the media reporting on this stuff day and night make it seem out of the ordinary (like there's more violence)? "
Actually, I'm talking about my area...and our population has not changed in the last 20 years.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 27, 2012 15:13:59 GMT -5
Has the media coverage changed in that time though?
We went to Tokyo Joe's on Wednesday night and saw that they were still showing 911 calls from the theater shooting. (We don't have network tv at home). The entire thing is tragic, but being reminded of it 24x7 I think has changed our perception and expectations of violence.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 15:17:32 GMT -5
Rae, that is a great point...I was not bombarded by violence as a child. If it happened, it was covered on the nightly news and then it was over. We also didn't listen to gangta rap and the extent of my video games was PacMan
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jul 27, 2012 15:19:17 GMT -5
In this area the murder rate (not total number) is top 5 in the country and we have less than a million, little over half a million. Population is shrinking not growing here.
I think there is a bigger drug trade than we had years ago. Another part is parents letting their kids grow up to be thugs. A couple weeks ago four high school kids severely beat a guy on his way to work. I say they got real lucky bc the guy was headed to a fed building that houses employees who are armed. They might have jumped someone who was carrying.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 15:19:53 GMT -5
Has the media coverage changed in that time though? We went to Tokyo Joe's on Wednesday night and saw that they were still showing 911 calls from the theater shooting. (We don't have network tv at home). The entire thing is tragic, but being reminded of it 24x7 I think has changed our perception and expectations of violence. Yeah, I'm starting to find the this kinda creepy - real violence as entertainment. But then, I guess it's not that much different than the scripted TV shows that use violence as a basis for entertainment. I sometimes wonder how the people who have survived a violent act (or been affected by one) sit thru watching scripted TV shows which show similar violence as part of daily entertainment. Much less seeing the news reporting on violence.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jul 27, 2012 15:21:31 GMT -5
The thing we may all be missing may be the size of the populations where the violence is occurring... in a city of 3 MILLION people is a murder a day really something out of the ordinanry? Does the media reporting on this stuff day and night make it seem out of the ordinary (like there's more violence)? ...also a good point... We don't have a murder a day but I think we're up to 60+ murders this year here. Population in the City is something like 400K? Unemployment is high, esp if you're black. Poverty rate is like 4th in the nation. And our public schools have a graduation rate that's abysmal. The public transit system is slowly shutting down routes so it's harder to get anywhere using it.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 15:24:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure if Gangster Rap (or Rock and Roll) has much effect on creating violence. I think you need to factor in human natures "mob mentality" - when you got a bunch of people together - listening to Gangster Rap, Rock and Roll, watching a Sporting event, etc and the opportunity for violence comes up... well, you've got a Mob you just need someone to take the lead...
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 15:28:33 GMT -5
Back to the topic about Poverty and Violence... I wonder if the fact that many poor people have alot of time on their hands (nothing to do cause not working and no place to go because not working) factors into the violence.
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reader79
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Post by reader79 on Jul 27, 2012 15:28:57 GMT -5
I definitely think that frustration plays a part. Also, there is a mentality that if you don't cheat the system, deal drugs, etc., then someone else will, so why not? They see so many break the law and get away with it that it becomes almost normal. And those who participate in these illegal activities flaunt their spoils, and are idolized by the idiot youths around them.
I grew up in, and still live in, a really bad part of Queens in NYC. So I have lived amongst poverty my entire life. It's depressing sometimes.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 27, 2012 15:35:27 GMT -5
Not only that, but has Miss T's perspecitive changed? I mean - you say there wasn't a single shooting, but what you really mean is there were none that you know of.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 27, 2012 15:37:22 GMT -5
I grew up in the ghetto. Violence is systemic and cultural. Kids grow up seeing 100s of fights/murders from the age of toddlers. They are not being watched - father is MIA and mom is usually working FT/OT (if honest) or drug dealing (if not). Either way, there isn't any parenting going on. Boys join gangs for identity and protection, and either die or go to jail. Girls grow up and have babies so someone will love them. There aren't any laws there - it is like the West from the 1800s. Reputation is everything and either you are tough or you die. Money from drugs funds all the weaponry. Has anyone seen the documentary, The Interrupters? It's fabulous for explaining the situation. www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/interrupters/
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jul 27, 2012 15:41:19 GMT -5
Has the media coverage changed in that time though? We went to Tokyo Joe's on Wednesday night and saw that they were still showing 911 calls from the theater shooting. (We don't have network tv at home). The entire thing is tragic, but being reminded of it 24x7 I think has changed our perception and expectations of violence. Yeah, I'm starting to find the this kinda creepy - real violence as entertainment. But then, I guess it's not that much different than the scripted TV shows that use violence as a basis for entertainment. I sometimes wonder how the people who have survived a violent act (or been affected by one) sit thru watching scripted TV shows which show similar violence as part of daily entertainment. Much less seeing the news reporting on violence. I find the constant news coverage on actual violence very creepy but do you ever really pay attention to the scripted TV shows? They almost always catch the bad guys, they pay for their bad behavior. Little morality plays in their way. Most people are interested in the characters on the shows, not the violence depicted. Just my thought. I do think our knowledge of the violence going on around us is magnified in a way it wasn't years ago. Lots of murders didn't make the news way back when (I'm trying to pick a time frame, but my local news always seemed to have the daily body count when I was in my teens and I didn't notice it before that).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 15:43:55 GMT -5
I think it's complicated. Part of it is drugs, a lot of money is at stake. Part of it is the increasing presence of gangs. They go to war over their "turf", and they don't tolerate "disrespect". A kid that lives where gangs are running things is in a bad situation even if he wants no part of gang activity. You have to know what not to say, simple everyday phrases are codes that disrespect different gangs, you have to know what not to wear so you don't accidentally "represent". And heaven help the kid if a particular gang decided they want him.
Then there are people that think they should have whatever they want, regardless of how they get it. They want your money, car or whatever, and they'll take it at gunpoint.
And yes, it all looks cool on tv.
I think almost of all of it comes back to a lack of positive parental influence and/or no good role models. It's one thing to tell kids they can grow up and be any (good) thing they want to be. But they often don't get the details of how to make it happen, we just tell them to go to school. School is boring and it takes forever for it to pay off, so what's the point when you can get what you want now in the streets? So they grow up and do what they know and what they've seen work for the people around them.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 27, 2012 15:44:02 GMT -5
Not only that, but has Miss T's perspecitive changed? I mean - you say there wasn't a single shooting, but what you really mean is there were none that you know of. That is my thought. Not that we have more violence because of the news, but that we believe there is more violence because the news is constantly bombarding us with "breaking news" of crime.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 15:48:23 GMT -5
"Not only that, but has Miss T's perspecitive changed? I mean - you say there wasn't a single shooting, but what you really mean is there were none that you know of. "
I was aware of what happened locally...if iPhilly was just as bad then as it is now, I can't say. Whiile we weren't bombarded with constant coverage of drug related shootings, shootings did make the news. I LIVED in the government housing for 10 years, I would have known if one of my neighbors got blown away...just like I knew which neighbors were cheating on whom, which neighbor's boyfriend beat her up, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 15:55:32 GMT -5
Rae, that is a great point...I was not bombarded by violence as a child. If it happened, it was covered on the nightly news and then it was over. We also didn't listen to gangta rap and the extent of my video games was PacMan When I turned 18 I started hanging out in some bad places. That was when I learned that a lot of stuff happened that didn't make the news. I'd hear about people that got shot and/or killed, but it never made the news. My city has been violent for a long time, but as long as the bad guys were just killing each other we could pretend it wasn't happening.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 15:57:47 GMT -5
Ok, to see if my perspective has changed or if they area has changed I googled my county...keep in mind, we have a much lower population than Philly so while the homicides seem VERY low even now, they are showing a trend.
I couldn't find anything that gave me the last 30 years so I targeted a few years for comparison...and the local newspaper provided the last 4 years
1980- 2 homicides 1990- 5 homicides 2008- 10 homicides 2009-19 homicides 2010-18 homicides 2011 15 homicides
2012 has been an awful year so far with 5 murders in just the last two months...all drug related.
There has also been a dramatic rise in overdose deaths over the last 10 years.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 16:05:48 GMT -5
[quote author=chocolatelover board=offtopic thread=24900 post=1167654 time=1343421679 I find the constant news coverage on actual violence very creepy but do you ever really pay attention to the scripted TV shows? They almost always catch the bad guys, they pay for their bad behavior. Little morality plays in their way. Most people are interested in the characters on the shows, not the violence depicted. Just my thought. I do think our knowledge of the violence going on around us is magnified in a way it wasn't years ago. Lots of murders didn't make the news way back when (I'm trying to pick a time frame, but my local news always seemed to have the daily body count when I was in my teens and I didn't notice it before that).[/quote] Yes, the violence isn't the reason people watch the scripted Crime Shows and I do agree they are little morality plays I guess you could say the scripted TV show (that's maybe using a story off the headlines as a basis) gives some sort of 'closure' as the bad guy is apprehended and punished while we rarely hear what happens to the people invovled in the violence on the nightly news. I just find it creepy when I see a scripted show that's using something lifted from the headlines as a basis for it's entertainment. Maybe I just have alot more 'memory' than most people... The modern crime shows are a far cry from shows like Dragnet and Murder She Wrote and Quincy and other "crime" entertainment of the past...
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 16:09:02 GMT -5
"I think gang activity over the last 15 or so years has exploded... and they are almost always in the low income areas. So while being "poor" doesn't mean you're going to be violent... the areas that you are going to be able to afford to live are going to have violence/criminal activity for the most part. "
And that goes along with the increase I have seen locally...
So how the hell do we get rid of gangs??? As a parent, it scares the shit out of me.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 16:13:38 GMT -5
2012 has been an awful year so far with 5 murders in just the last two months...all drug related. There has also been a dramatic rise in overdose deaths over the last 10 years. Maybe there's your answer: drugs (and the violence) that goes with it. I always find it kinda interesting that the gang/drug related deaths are usually in the poor areas and involve the 'poor'... versus the 'rich' people who drive into those areas to get their drugs. I'm pretty sure it's not the people in poverty keeping the gangs flush with cash...
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jul 27, 2012 16:24:11 GMT -5
My guess on it being much more realistic and "from the headlines" is that most people want something a bit grounded in reality, Dragnet is so not how it really works. Neither is the crime lab of ANY show on TV but the other parts look more realistic to the general public. I like your thought on maybe it's a form of closure on the punishment you don't always see in real life. Or justice for those that didn't get what they should have?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 27, 2012 16:26:03 GMT -5
Economic segregation might be a factor. My grandmother lived in a crappy apartment in the depression while prohabition was still on, but the neighborhood was very mixed, one block mansions and the next block slums.
I think the thing that really matters is the attitudes of the inhabitants towards law enforcement. If the poorer folks see the police as 'one of us' and the police see them the same way, then cooperation is more likely.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 16:27:43 GMT -5
"The modern crime shows are a far cry from shows like Dragnet and Murder She Wrote and Quincy and other "crime" entertainment of the past... " I always joked that if I ever saw Jessica Fletcher at a party I would run far, far away...someone always died when she was around
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 16:42:09 GMT -5
Break down of the family, break down of the community, absent fathers.
I grew up pretty poor, but you just didn't screw up too bad, because there were neighbours everywhere and they knew who you were (whose kid you were) and would totally rat you out to your parents, who would bring make your life miserable. I think drugs are just a symptom of the problem.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 16:45:13 GMT -5
I think the thing that really matters is the attitudes of the inhabitants towards law enforcement. If the poorer folks see the police as 'one of us' and the police see them the same way, then cooperation is more likely. I think it's more than just the attitude towards law enforcement... how do you get people to 'banish' their own family members or loved ones? One bad apple does spoil the whole family in this case... if the family moves away from the violence they and their one bad apple have to cut all ties - otherwise the 'violence' comes with them. I don't think that kinda stuff is ever gonna happen on a large scale. I mean the family has to leave their bad apple behind OR the bad apple has to cut all ties to their friends/loved ones/those left behind. Violence usually happens between people who know each other.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 16:52:27 GMT -5
I think drugs are just a symptom of the problem. So, you think parents who do drugs care enough to stay sober long enough to considtently keep their kids on the high moral road that leads to a successful modern life?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 27, 2012 17:00:32 GMT -5
Povertyvof the mind not the body. Thanks to welfare these poor people lead a middle class life so it isn't financial. I won't rent to section 8 because they bring ghetto behavior with them and their friends come to visit as well. Makes the rest of the neighbors panic and start calling me. After the one tenant that I had who brought the bar home with her at closing and proceeded to party on the driveway, I had had enough. They tried to separate these people from each other but it makes no difference. It's all theyve seen for generations now. They don't know any better and they don't want to better themselves no matter how much they say they "love" their children. A young woman who tries to better herself is dragged down by her own family for trying to be "better" than they are. What chance does she really have?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 17:17:44 GMT -5
Break down of the family, break down of the community, absent fathers.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 27, 2012 17:24:05 GMT -5
Absolutely. One of the kindergarten teachers said the worst thing that happened to the black community was bussing. That before, Miss So and SO was your teacher and she saw your mother and father at church and told on you if you hadn't behaved. Education was the key to getting out of the wrong side of the tracks. When the govt became the father of the family, thatended the family unit.
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