Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 31, 2012 16:50:00 GMT -5
Here's the part that doesn't make sense to me. While you're on the other side, you already know everything that's going to happen to you, which is why you choose the life you choose right? But since you already know before being born that your house will be hit by a tornado at 30, and how that's going to make you feel, why do you have to actually live through it? Being omniscient sort of defeats the purpose of having to actually live through all of these various lives to learn your lesson. You already know the lesson before you're choosing to learn it. Each life is like watching a rerun of a movie you've already seen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 16:50:06 GMT -5
Where is our board shrink to post the mental health explanation on this thread's posters. Maybe a self-help book suggestion?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 16:51:23 GMT -5
...we're totally gonna be bumped to the religion forum now...
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 31, 2012 16:55:44 GMT -5
I do 'get' what Lone is saying... but that logic only works for yourself and to better your own life. You can't apply that belief to other people and their circumstances. Unless you want a caste system, and a way to judge others.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 31, 2012 16:56:35 GMT -5
All right, we're getting into an area here that is outside my area of expertise. Unfortunately as a biologist I tend to view life from a scientific, rather than spiritual light.
I will say, however, that the tornado hit my house because my house happened to be in the path of the tornado. I don't believe the tornado had anything to 'teach' me. Nothing at all, except perhaps that insurance adjustors are slimy people who rank up there with used car salesmen, but I don't think that lesson really has any cosmic deep purpose.
I also believe unexpected bad things happen to people for absolutely no reason, and any compassionate modern society has to find ways to help these people, who are suffering through no fault of their own. (And simply being lazy does not qualify as 'no fault of their own').
Insisting that everything bad happens to you because you need to learn a lesson would be a seriously depressing way to view life, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 31, 2012 16:58:03 GMT -5
Have I called your beliefs names? Maybe I'm a lesson in your life, right now?
Ludicrous or not, I *do* find it offensive that some people believe that we choose our own starts in life and therefore everything that happens to us is our "fault" because it's based on things we need to learn.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 31, 2012 17:07:08 GMT -5
Yeah, it's called being a decent human being. I don't actually have to watch my own baby starve to realize that it must be gut wrenching for a parent to go through that.
Or, are you saying that humans are such dumb creatures that we're incapable of feeling empathy in any situation that we haven't personally experienced?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 31, 2012 17:09:18 GMT -5
I do 'get' what Lone is saying... but that logic only works for yourself and to better your own life. You can't apply that belief to other people and their circumstances. Unless you want a caste system, and a way to judge others. Again...I'm just stating my belief. Do you think I'm really judging anyone? Yes I do. You've spent pages judging poor people to be lazy good for nothings who deserve the crap they get. I don't understand how you can say this belief gives you empathy (it should) but your posts completely lack empathy for people in situations much harder than yours. I also believe that 'luck' and 'cosmic choice' boil down to pretty much the same thing.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 31, 2012 17:11:51 GMT -5
Why? That would deprive them of the lesson they're trying to learn and keep them from gaining the strength you gained from going through the same thing. Why you trying to keep the tornado victims down?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 17:16:54 GMT -5
Again...I'm just stating my belief. Do you think I'm really judging anyone? Yes I do. You've spent pages judging poor people to be lazy good for nothings who deserve the crap they get. I don't understand how you can say this belief gives you empathy (it should) but your posts completely lack empathy for people in situations much harder than yours. I also believe that 'luck' and 'cosmic choice' boil down to pretty much the same thing. Lone lacks empathy? Hardly. There is always a line between helping someone in need and enabling someone to stop helping themselves. When you first have surgery, you might have to lay in bed awhile to recuperate while others help you. And, that is how it should be. We should all help our fellow man. But, then comes the point where the nurses comes in and says "Get out of bed and walk". And, yes it might be painful, seem unfair or uncaring. But, it isn't. There are points in life where people need nuturing and points in life when people need a kick in the butt to help themselves. Going to far one way or the other is the real lack of empathy and compassion. If you never help anyone, you are wrong. If you do everything for someone else and never require more of them or expect more, then you really don't care about them either. There are times as a parent i nuture and times of tough love.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 31, 2012 17:19:55 GMT -5
I have no empathy, as I've stated, for lazy system scammers. I, however, have a great deal of empathy for poor children, as I was one once. I know that I have much to learn, but many lives to do it in. Has anyone here said that they support "lazy system scammers?" I know I haven't said that. I don't assume that all poor people ARE lazy system scammers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 17:21:37 GMT -5
Neither should you assume that those who dislike scammers are assuming that all poor people are.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 31, 2012 17:22:08 GMT -5
Whoa... wait a minute. Back up a tick. Didn't the people I see on the news after a Tornado already know that it was going to happen before they chose to come to this side to learn their lesson. They also already know whether or not I'm going to help. It's all predetermined right? So I'm really not learning anything, or at least I had no choice to not learn. I'm like a robot and somebody else is in control of the programming.
You honestly find this belief comforting?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 31, 2012 17:22:27 GMT -5
ETA: Lone, I don't mean to offend but your analogy reminds me of people who sit around blaming rape victims because they were raped. I can't see asking some lady to "learn a lesson" from something like that...
Word.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 31, 2012 17:25:23 GMT -5
I can understand why you would feel like that. But if you were to ask that lady, years later how that horrible rape changed her life, she would be able to tell you. Who knows, maybe she became a rape counselor, something that she had determined she wanted and needed the path to get there. It's so complicated. I don't know. Yeah, well, speaking as one of those victims myself I can say that one has ZERO to do with the other. You might get some use out of suffering, but that doesn't mean it was right for you to suffer. It for damn sure does not mean that you "asked" or "chose" to suffer, or that the person who caused you to suffer is off the hook because it turned into something good for you.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 31, 2012 17:25:31 GMT -5
Neither should you assume that those who dislike scammers are assuming that all poor people are. I'm making my posts based on the responses to this thread.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 31, 2012 17:26:54 GMT -5
I don't assume that either. My issue is that most of the poor people I know ARE system scammers. So, with everyone is up in arms because there is no money for the truly poor, this is why I protest.
All right, indulge me. Give me an example of a poor person who you DON'T consider to be a system scammer, someone who truly needs the assistance.
And then I'll ask you why they're such a special snowflake exception to the rule about poor people being lazy leeches who suck. Most likely, your answer will have something to do with their innate vulnerability or their BAD LUCK, neither of which they chose.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 31, 2012 17:28:41 GMT -5
I, however, have a great deal of empathy for poor children, as I was one once. I know that I have much to learn, but many lives to do it in.Yeah? Why feel empathy for them? Because they are CHILDREN and therefore did not choose their situation?!
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 31, 2012 17:30:26 GMT -5
No actually, she does believe their souls did choose that situation, but since her soul did too at some point, and for some reason, she's still extra empathetic to them. The rest of us deserve what we chose though. Or something like that.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 31, 2012 17:31:05 GMT -5
Lonewolf's believes aren't any odder than some of the tenents of other religions (we're probably all familiar with some) nor is the ability to accept as truth two completely contridictive 'truths' (not that Lone is doing this) an difficult thing for all us humans to do (good old Human Nature!).
I guess what all these postings illustrate is that our beliefs may effect how we go about living our lives.
FWIW: I grew up old school Catholic and it seemed to me the belief that 'suffering' was good for you was counter intuitive to trying to alleviate suffering in your own life (maybe by trying to better your lot in live) or in someone else's life (helping the poor). I couldn't ever figure out where suffering went past being 'good for you' and became something that should be alleviated. Just so you know I'm an atheist (never had belief in God/souls/etc even with my good Catholic upbringing).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 17:32:34 GMT -5
My belief again...some higher souls will actually put themselves in horrible situations in order to help teach their abusers lessons. Sometimes it's their life's unselfish goal. Sometimes the soul will set himself up as the abuser in order to teach another empathy. Many believe that Hitler came here in order to teach the world a lesson. Do you think he did it? Yes, he taught us that if we leave evil unchecked and to its own devices, that we have failed our fellow man.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 31, 2012 17:33:16 GMT -5
No actually, she does believe their souls did choose that situation, but since her soul did too at some point, and for some reason, she's still extra empathetic to them. The rest of us deserve what we chose though. Or something like that. That's my point though. There's a cognitive dissonance at work here. If her belief says that children are as liable for their situations as anyone else, then she shouldn't feel any special compassion or any special need to help those in bad situations. Because they chose their paths just like the rest of us. Yet! She says she DOES feel special compassion for poor kids. HMMMMMM
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 31, 2012 17:35:16 GMT -5
Have I called your beliefs names? Maybe I'm a lesson in your life, right now? Ludicrous or not, I *do* find it offensive that some people believe that we choose our own starts in life and therefore everything that happens to us is our "fault" because it's based on things we need to learn. Lone's beliefs and mine intersect somewhat. Since I've been reading these last few pages I decided I throw in my view of the situation. I do think we choose to some extent what family we get born into, the body we will get and a basic plan of things we want to learn. I don't think everything is pre-determined and I'm pretty sure it is not clear to an outside observer what was planned, what was attracted into your life, and things that just happened because of default, luck,etc. I really haven't studied much what might happen in pre-life planning because for me, navigating this life is challenging enough. I think when you study or believe some of the things Lone and I do it is easy to think you know what you do not. For example, a tornado hitting one's home could happen for many reasons. I'm not sure if it is something one could even pre-plan as a soul, but if it is, it is only one possible reason it occurred. Sometimes IMO things happen by default(default creation). You live in a tornado prone area of the country, it comes through and throttles your house. Not unexpected. You have fears of tornados, you believe one is going to get you someday and because of that you keep choosing places to live that you think are free of tornados yet you have an uncanny knack of picking where they are going to show up. One day one smashes up part of the place you live.(law of attraction using fear) Since there are so many reasons something could happen I prefer as my human self to look at it as compassionately as I can. The world tells us who the winners are. Wealth, fame, power, etc. As for the winners spiritually? I'm not sure. Looks can be deceiving. For the original question I wonder if poverty in close quarters makes it easier for violence to erupt than smaller towns where people are spread out. When you have a lot of people in one place and therefore access to more customers crime probably pays well versus in small towns and rural areas. Plus with larger cities as some posters noted the richer clients can drive in.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 31, 2012 17:37:05 GMT -5
I don't know. I think I'm converting to Loneism. They chose those lives knowing they would be butchered by a mad man. They're just as culpable as he is. I hope they all learned whatever lesson they were supposed to learn from the experience.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 31, 2012 17:37:11 GMT -5
Many believe that Hitler came here in order to teach the world a lesson. Do you think he did it?
Here is why this belief system makes me want to spit.
In order to "teach the world a lesson," you're saying, it was his duty to come here and slaughter more than six million people.
Or hey, maybe it was Hitler that needed to learn the lesson, right? Maybe for HIM to reach enlightenment, he needed more than six million "higher souls" to offer themselves up in order to teach him what he needed to know.
Everyone tries to justify suffering in their own way; that's sometimes the only way we can survive. But I for one refuse to cater to any belief system that offers such platitudes as "you chose to suffer this way, at this time, for this reason." If it works for YOU, fine, but don't you DARE tell other people that's how they ought to think.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 31, 2012 17:38:38 GMT -5
Many believe that Hitler came here in order to teach the world a lesson. Do you think he did it? Not anymore so than all the genocides that have come and gone before him. Not to mention the current genocides that are happening or will happen in the future.
That's the problem with attempting a 'world wide' lesson for humanity - who ever writes the books/tells the history controls the 'lessons' the future learns from the past. There's 7 billion of us now and genocides/cleansings still happen... and what about the billions that came before us (who didn't have the advantage of 'world wide' lessons for humanity getting to them in time to help/save/change them?
ADDED: Not to mention that people who are convinced they are right have the ability to do HORRIBLE things to other people - usually in the name of 'good'. Remember, they've convinced themselves they are right/justified in their actions which generally feels like they are doing 'good' or the 'right thing'.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 17:39:06 GMT -5
I really don't think Lone is preaching some message purely about fatalism. We have free will to choose to do good or choose to do evil.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 31, 2012 17:40:34 GMT -5
I've been out of school for a while, so remind me, is that the one that's stronger than gravity but weaker than magnetism, or is it the other way around?
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Jul 31, 2012 17:41:49 GMT -5
I think that poverty and violence are often intertwined because of many reasons. I believe one of them is inability to see beyond the present. I can see if a person is just barely managing to scrape by with daily needs how overwhelming it would be to think of an entire lifetime of scrapping by before them, so they choose not to think of it. Also, from personal experience I know what is "thinking big" for someone in poverty is not for someone who may have more money. My aunt was proud her daughter was finally making a dollar more than minimum wage.
I am also surprised by the number of posters who would be bored with an infinite amount of time. We are such a tiny speck in an infinite universe there is no end to the things we can learn and create if we were given the opportunity.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 31, 2012 17:41:55 GMT -5
No, souls can only learn lessons that they experience first hand. We covered that a page or two ago. If it was possible to teach a lesson like that, none of us would be here because our souls are omniscient and would already know everything they needed to know. Duh.
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