beags
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I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high functioning sociopath, do your research.
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Post by beags on Jul 23, 2012 17:36:16 GMT -5
Do we need to resurrect the bad parent thread? LOL I'm ok with parents buying a 15 year old that game, it just seems like a waste to do so, then be "horrified", then go get them a different game when it's blatant from the start that anything rated "Mature 17+" is going to more than Bart Simpsonesque. You wouldn't take your 15 year old to an R-rated movie and then walk out horrified because they swear in it. LOL They swear in PG-13 movies. They show partial nudity in R rated movies, and violence and swearing. I get the point . . I wouldn't allow my son to go to an R rated movie and then be horrified when he came home and said YOu should have seen her chest!!!!
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beags
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I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high functioning sociopath, do your research.
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Post by beags on Jul 23, 2012 17:37:27 GMT -5
My daughter is one of those sweet, sensitive souls. She like to play video games where you pet animals. When I used to play video games it was referred to as "slaughtering hedgehogs." Sonic in particular. I game as well as I ski, with a great deal of enthusiasm, and very little skill. And sign me back up for the "bad parent" thread. Both DS and DD have been known to waste their days on WOW. ;D World of War . . yes, my son plays that as well. Make that both my children have.
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beags
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I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high functioning sociopath, do your research.
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Post by beags on Jul 23, 2012 17:39:04 GMT -5
Yes, reductio ad absurdum. :-\ I would instead say: A) You have to quantify how big the problem is. B) You have to quantify how likely taking away the stimulus will impact the problem. C) You have to quantify what the penalty is to society for doing away with the stimulus. Can it be accomplished? What is lost in the process? If A*B > C, "taking one for the team" is the reasonable option. In your examples (the first where A is tiny and B is unity, the second where A is large and B is infinitesimal, and both having astronomical C), the inequality is rather obvious. For video games, A is small but (in theory) growing rapidly, nobody has any idea what B is, and C, although large, might ultimately not be as large as A*B. If nutjob becomes the new normal, your ability to go to a movie theater without getting shot outweighs your love of video games. I'm confused . . can you tone this down to stupid level? All this a vs c and B vs a means this is that and that is this . . is confusing.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 23, 2012 17:41:27 GMT -5
::In your examples (the first where A is tiny and B is unity, the second where A is large and B is infinitesimal, and both having astronomical C), the inequality is rather obvious.::
And in the case of video game violence in regards to murder, A & B are tiny and C is small in the actual act of removal but rather large in the government censorship of entertainment media. In the area of murder, these kinds of shootings don't even register as a blip on the scale. And eliminating the stimulus certainly isn't to impact the problem as it's not a cause of the problem in the first place, unless no one ever got shot for no good reason prior to the invention of video game violence.
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beags
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I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high functioning sociopath, do your research.
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Post by beags on Jul 23, 2012 17:46:24 GMT -5
::In your examples (the first where A is tiny and B is unity, the second where A is large and B is infinitesimal, and both having astronomical C), the inequality is rather obvious.:: And in the case of video game violence in regards to murder, A & B are tiny and C is small in the actual act of removal but rather large in the government censorship of entertainment media. In the area of murder, these kinds of shootings don't even register as a blip on the scale. And eliminating the stimulus certainly isn't to impact the problem as it's not a cause of the problem in the first place, unless no one ever got shot for no good reason prior to the invention of video game violence. well back then it would be . .. if the person was never subjected to those dirty bars and cheap women, and that game of pool or poker then this would never have happened. and in a different part of the country It's that darn rodeo with their mistreatment of animals It's the bullfights . . All that kid needed was a trip to the woodshed. If his/her parents would have tanned his/her hide a little bit more, this would not have happened.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jul 23, 2012 17:46:56 GMT -5
Its a point actually. I wonder whether many parents, like myself, just aren't aware of what their kids are watching,
The last thing I remember playing was Sonic the Hedgehog or the Tomb raider series.
I don't know when it started to go all "rape and murder"....or even why these things are supposed to be entertaining.
but I wouldn't want to play the game in the OP description...or even have it in my house.
I thing violence in gaming is only acceptable if it is in context and shows consequence.....but gratuitous or glorification of violence should be avoided.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2012 17:48:42 GMT -5
Yes, reductio ad absurdum. :-\ I would instead say: A) You have to quantify how big the problem is. B) You have to quantify how likely taking away the stimulus will impact the problem. C) You have to quantify what the penalty is to society for doing away with the stimulus. Can it be accomplished? What is lost in the process? If A*B > C, "taking one for the team" is the reasonable option. In your examples (the first where A is tiny and B is unity, the second where A is large and B is infinitesimal, and both having astronomical C), the inequality is rather obvious. For video games, A is small but (in theory) growing rapidly, nobody has any idea what B is, and C, although large, might ultimately not be as large as A*B. If nutjob becomes the new normal, your ability to go to a movie theater without getting shot outweighs your love of video games. I would say the answer is: PONG.
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beags
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Post by beags on Jul 23, 2012 17:49:09 GMT -5
Its a point actually. I wonder whether many parents, like myself, just aren't aware of what their kids are watching, The last thing I remember playing was Sonic the Hedgehog or the Tomb raider series. I don't know when it started to go all "rape and murder"....or even why these things are supposed to be entertaining. but I wouldn't want to play the game in the OP description...or even have it in my house. I thing violence in gaming is only acceptable if it is in context and shows consequence.....but gratuitous or glorification of violence should be avoided. In Red Dead Redemption if you rape a girl someone is going to shoot you dead.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 23, 2012 17:52:59 GMT -5
I don't think the games should be banned, necessarily. I do believe it's important for parents to make the effort to know (not guess) what their kids are doing, because I'll guarantee you the people who are marketing the games, or running the online games, don't care. That's why I left. I enjoyed working the game, building the scenery, interacting with the players. What I didn't enjoy was seeing things going on that should have been dealt with and weren't dealt with because nobody gave a flying flip what happened to a 13-year-old kid who was in over his/her head.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 23, 2012 17:56:09 GMT -5
You guys are clearly all buying the wrong video games. Go get your kids a copy of city of heroes. You make a superhero, and then run around arresting (not killing) bad guys. There are missions and stuff to stop particularly bothersome arch-villains, but you can run through the streets and arrest the gang members and fascist extremists that are purse nabbing, breaking into cars, and whatnot. No blood, no realistic violence at all really, and you're not playing a morally ambiguous "hero" that's beating up hookers, killing innocent bystanders, or whatever.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 23, 2012 17:58:01 GMT -5
::I thing violence in gaming is only acceptable if it is in context and shows consequence.....but gratuitous or glorification of violence should be avoided.::
Space Invaders is gratuitous violence. You shoot things and they explode, for no reason really, the goal is to shoot as many as you can.
Gratuitous is much less controversial than realism it seems. In fact the more realistic games almost all show more consequences and context than anything in the past which was regarded as harmless. I would probably argue that the people against violent video games dislike them because they show too many consequences and too much context...even if they dont' understand that's the reason they're opposed to them.
Think about it, no one cares about old games. Tank wars, where you blow up an entire tank of soldiers, space invaders, etc. It's all gratuitous violence for the sake of getting to fire a weapon. If Tank Wars were remade today you'd see everyone burning alive, scorched lying on the ground. You'd see all the consequences, and people would be disgusted by seeing the consequences.
Heck the game which seems to get people riled in Grand Theft Auto not only are there consequences in that they die, their friends might come after you, the police try to capture you, etc. I would argue what people DON'T like are the consequences, consequences make it "real".
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 23, 2012 18:05:18 GMT -5
It means that yes, violent video games are a problem, and yes, having the government censor an industry is a big deal. You have to quantify how big a problem, how likely the censorship will be in solving the problem, and how great a sacrifice will the censorship be. Hoops is on one end of the spectrum, where she feels the first two are "tiny" and the third is huge. Spell is on the other end of the spectrum, where she feels the first two are large enough to dominate the third. Graphically: Violent Videogame-o-meter
Hoops (What, Me Worry?) ___ | | | Virgil | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ¯¯¯ Spell (Won't Somebody Think of the Children!) I'm about 1/10th of the way on the Hoops-to-Spell spectrum, at least at present.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 23, 2012 18:14:49 GMT -5
I added a poll so that we can get some more widespread feedback.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2012 18:17:28 GMT -5
I don't believe games should be censored. All GOOD parents know which ones are good and which are disgustingly violent. Its all about parenting.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jul 23, 2012 18:19:52 GMT -5
The difference is..... that todays video games are so realistic...... they are almost a virtual reality. Space invaders was never more than a 2 dimensional extension of a tetrus game.
One poor guy in South Korea was so involved in his game that he played it until he died of exhaustion. It can be addictive to the point where people are gaming for most of the day.
As for the violence....then a love of violent games and video nasties... will be mirrored in society to some extent. The prevalence of serious mental illness....is around 5%
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2012 18:22:15 GMT -5
The problem with pong, you need two players. sigh....
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Colleenz
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Post by Colleenz on Jul 23, 2012 18:43:55 GMT -5
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beags
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I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high functioning sociopath, do your research.
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Post by beags on Jul 23, 2012 18:45:38 GMT -5
Now if we didn't have those dang video games people wouldn't be so obsessed with whips and red hineys.
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beags
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Post by beags on Jul 23, 2012 18:46:58 GMT -5
Thank you for putting it to stupid terms for me, Virgil.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2012 18:51:04 GMT -5
Video games are just one component of the overall media landscape. It's hard to believe that a video game itself is that influential on an individual's mindset and behaviour, however taken as a whole they serve to reinforce social attitudes and values. So… it would be futile to ban violence in video games without banning violence elsewhere in the media too.
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Jul 23, 2012 19:03:18 GMT -5
Take some person with a feeble sense of the difference between fantasy and reality, give them "role-playing" exercises that desensitize them to violence... you create potential "killing machines". The rate of schizophrenia in the adult population is estimated to be .5 to 1 percent (See: . www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm) Imagine, 1 out of every 50-to-100 people being a potential psychopath. Do we want all of them learning to kill as a form of "play"? Teaching sociopaths the most efficient way to kill and destroy... doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 23, 2012 19:29:45 GMT -5
I'm torn on this issue in particular. At a glance, I would agree. Why should video games be any more of a stimulus for violent outbursts than any other kind of media? However, it is true that: - brain wave activity while playing video games is different than for any other type of media. The participant is more engaged. Some psychologists liken the phenomenon to hypnosis. Some go a step further and suggest that video games induce a suggestible state in the player.
What isn't a secret is that the US military has helped fund the development of numerous video games. I personally believe their motive is to fund plain old propaganda. Show how "fun" it is to save the world by shooting up terrorists; it makes it all the much easier come recruiting time. Others cite evidence that video games are a vector for active brainwashing. Specifically, they claim the games promote violent attitudes and desensitize the user to violence, making him/her a more "ideal" soldier.
Who knows where the actual truth lies. I am rather certain that the Pentagon doesn't bankroll certain video games just for the fun of it.
- video games engage the user for longer periods of time, and for longer overall amounts of time. Your average playthrough time on a FPS is anywhere from 8 to 36 hours. Online games, RPGs, etc. can run into the thousands of hours. And a gaming "session" can last anywhere from 30 minutes to days virtually uninterrupted, unlike movies, TV, board games, comics, even books, which all have a max two hour duration (or max 5-6 hour duration for a good book of average length).
- in dollar terms, video games are a bigger industry than movies, TV, comics, board games, and books combined
- video games and (I suppose) "violent board games" are the only two media that give the participant the opportunity to actively choose violence among several options
In short, there is possible merit to the argument that video games stand apart from other media in their ability to influence our behaviour. Whether they do or not: I guess that's what we're here to debate.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 23, 2012 19:36:55 GMT -5
I didn't realize the most efficient way to kill somebody was by sitting on your ass on the couch twiddling your thumbs real fast. Good to know. I'm like a ninja master now. Should I register my thumbs as deadly weapons do you suppose? Or do you mean the visuals in the games themselves? Eating oddly colored mushrooms and jumping on people's heads doesn't sound all that effective to me, but I'll defer to your expertise in this area.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 23, 2012 19:49:33 GMT -5
*lol*
If not for video games, I wouldn't know all the best places to scavenge shotgun ammo people leave lying around. ;D
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 23, 2012 20:38:25 GMT -5
Unless you're into that sort of thing.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 23, 2012 22:32:32 GMT -5
I'll make another point that I haven't seen in this thread but may have appeared in others. We're assuming (some are anyways) the one way relationship that these games breed this behavior. It's at least as equally likely that any correlation is caused by the opposite flow, that these media are out there and those predisposed to these kinds of actions are drawn to these types of media, the first-person decision making to kill person after person. So rather than this thinking that for those who are unstable, this is some sort of "trigger" to go off the deep end, it's entirely plausible that for those who are unstable and who are going to go off the deep end no matter what, these games are the sort of thing they're drawn to as entertainment.
It's also entirely plausible that the ability to have these sorts of realistic interactions in which one gets to experience violent power provides a release for those already predisposed, perhaps to the point they release those emotions/thoughts in a virtual world RATHER than in the real world. I'm not saying it's true, I'm not saying I have any proof, I'm just saying that the research that one causes the other is relatively new and inconclusive...but it's primarily being looked at in one way when it's entirely possible the relationship is precisely the opposite.
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TD2K
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Post by TD2K on Jul 23, 2012 23:39:25 GMT -5
I remember the first time I saw Doom. Great game, especially with a hack that turned a shotgun into a machine gun with unlimited ammo
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jul 24, 2012 3:02:43 GMT -5
I suspect that those who have voted "No" have enjoyed these games, as adults... and feel that they have no ill effects.
My original point was,...what if you have youngsters?..... They have heard about violent games and there is peer pressure to play them at an age where they are unsuitable. It only takes one parent....(probably me, I'm ashamed to say) who is either naive or couldn't care less...... and our young people are exposed to a level of violence which is unacceptable. I missed the memo when virtual reality "rape and murder" became mainstream entertainment....and can't really see why it is. We are at risk of becoming desensitized to violence.
RE; Military propaganda Last week I was in a discussion, on another board, explaining reasons for not taking active engagement in Syria The flippant "Nuke the bastids" attitudes from some of the posters was outrageous.
There was hatred for people that we don't even know, in a climate we don't understand....Why? ....because someone told you that you were supposed to hate someone... and you blindly do it? Or is it the love of violence....We need an enemy and anybody will do. What type of people go to war without considering the alternatives?
The reality of dropping bombs on a civilian population is monstrous...The reality of going to war is that you stand a very good chance of getting yourself and other people killed. There aren't any heroes on the ground....there are just people trying to stay alive.
As for Schizophrenia the percentage is about 1% but there are many shades of grey between being completely compus mentis and having a serious psychosis. Who knows the actual number who could be be effected by violence in the media?
In any case....Why are :- Rape, Murder, Beheadings, Prostitute killings, Shootings........considered mainstream mass entertainment? Its just wrong........ and if you are going to brainwash a society it requires a bit more thought than just allowing games companies to make money by stimulating their inner primal caveman.....and evoking violent play. This behavior can only become normalised and reflect in the real world.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 24, 2012 3:11:58 GMT -5
When I used to play video games it was referred to as "slaughtering hedgehogs." Sonic in particular. I game as well as I ski, with a great deal of enthusiasm, and very little skill. And sign me back up for the "bad parent" thread. Both DS and DD have been known to waste their days on WOW. ;D World of War . . yes, my son plays that as well. Make that both my children have. If you're talking about World of Warcraft, Beags, if your kids are young teens, please, please, please monitor them closely when they play that game. Nothing to do with the violence. That's your decision. Just a heads up.
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luckyme
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Post by luckyme on Jul 24, 2012 9:25:05 GMT -5
" Also colors, gangs use colors to represent their affiliation, no colors will mean no more gang violence. "
Our school district already does this. Doesn't stop the gangs from fighting.
That being said, I am finding w/ my youngest, now 12, just how easily they are manipulated, and how kids her age lack a sense of reality.
I am not comfortable w/ banning things, but I would not allow my son to play games w/ content I was not happy with. He tends to play the multi-player fantasy games on line w/ all his friends. There is violence, but the premise is not reality based.
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