Vìôlênt Videogames are Fun

[Virgil Showlion]

...it's true. Very true.

Consider the last game I played (disclaimer: I am not making this up or exaggerating):

First-person shooter (apparently based on a graphic novel from the 90's). The main character is the head of a New York crime family. He possesses a power (called 'Darkness') that allows him to grow two giant snake-like "demon arms" that desire to feet on human hearts.

The game's defining feature is the ability to "quad wield"—eviscerate enemies simultaneously with both 'demon arms' as well as wielding two semi- or fully automatic weapons, one in each hand.

The game consists of you (main character) running through bars, highrise buildings, even hell (at the end of the game) killing everything in remarkably imaginative ways, eating people's hearts, shooting, ripping, crushing, disemboweling, and literally tearing people limb from limb, with a bit of a story line thrown in to hold everything together.


Having said this...

when a "normal" person plays games of this nature, the "people" you're killing are not, in any way, shape, or form representative of real people. For me, the emotional reaction is no different from exploding pixel spaceships in an 80's arcade game. It's so-called "cartoon violence". Like Wile E. Coyote blowing himself up with an ACME bomb, or Bruce Willis crashing a car into a helicopter.

Yet I cannot stomach things like the "Saw" franchise, where even the commercials upset me. The realism is such that the characters are human. I don't want to see human suffering, and I'm certainly not entertained by it.

Video game baddies may look human, but there isn't a video game is existence where they "feel" human (with the possible exception of some of the Rockstar games—which I don't play—and where the realism is still marginal).

I can't explain it to you any better than to say "they might as well be pixels". You can watch a video game character get torn limb from limb and not even flinch, but ten minutes later, you watch a video of real man breaking an arm and you "feel his pain". The brain utterly disconnects the two.

Where I could see major problems occurring is in individuals who can no longer differentiate between cartoon violence and real violence. IMO, this would have to be due to mental illness—schizophrenia, for instance, in which case games of this nature would be like gasoline on a fire.

[Virgil Showlion]

It says that if we imagine all of the video game baddies we're shooting at to be MuscleUp clones, life is just one big party.

[weltschmerz]

Sometimes I play Grand Theft Auto with my son. It's a hoot.

[Cookies Galore]

Jul 23, 2012 16:25:11 GMT -5 Muscleup said:

This OP is way too long to read. What did it say?

BAM! KaPow! Blammo!


I still play Super Mario Bros.

[Deleted]

I like Wii. I can put a hurting on those crazy raving rabbits.

[Virgil Showlion]

Sometimes I play Grand Theft Auto with my son. It's a hoot.

The original GTA is fun. I find the realism in the later ones slightly "too much" for my tastes.

Really, most video game designers have mastered the art of making it "real" while simultaneously making it "unreal". Like watching Arnie's head explode in the original Total Recall. I'm curious to see how the effect looks in the re-release.

Does that mean I wouldn't be utterly horrified if it happened in real life?

[Cookies Galore]

Jul 23, 2012 16:32:49 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Sometimes I play Grand Theft Auto with my son. It's a hoot.

The original GTA is fun. I find the realism in the later ones slightly "too much" for my tastes.

Really, most video game designers have mastered the art of making it "real" while simultaneously making it "unreal". Like watching Arnie's head explode in the original Total Recall. I'm curious to see how the effect looks in the re-release.

Does that mean I wouldn't be utterly horrified if it happened in real life?

Oh man! I hope "Deadly Friend" gets a remake so the basketball head explosion scene gets the redo it deserves! (Am I the only who remembers this POS movie?)

[weltschmerz]

The original GTA is fun. I find the realism in the later ones slightly "too much" for my tastes.
--------------
The realism is astounding. I'm a person who used to play Space Invaders, and I thought that was cutting edge.

[Virgil Showlion]

The realism is astounding.

Some generations are easily impressed.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

The realism is astounding. I'm a person who used to play Space Invaders, and I thought that was cutting edge

LOL - "Asteroids" was better. Oh, for the simpler days of Atari.

[mmhmm]

I'd agree the normal person makes a delineation between reality and video game fantasy. There are, however, more than you'd expect who don't do so. Most are quite young. I spent some time as a game master on an online RPG. I was surprised at the number of young people who took what happened in that game very, very seriously. We had a few threats of suicide over game events, and had to act to stop something terrible from happening. While you might not do this, and I might not do this, I really believe you might be surprised at the number of people who WILL do this.

[thyme4change]

My daughter is one of those sweet, sensitive souls. She like to play video games where you pet animals.

[hoops902]

Jul 23, 2012 16:42:09 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'd agree the normal person makes a delineation between reality and video game fantasy. There are, however, more than you'd expect who don't do so. Most are quite young. I spent some time as a game master on an online RPG. I was surprised at the number of young people who took what happened in that game very, very seriously. We had a few threats of suicide over game events, and had to act to stop something terrible from happening. While you might not do this, and I might not do this, I really believe you might be surprised at the number of people who WILL do this.

I've heard threats of suicide and murder over sports, women, board games, etc. That doesn't mean those things are to blame. Nutjobs are nutjobs, regardless of what activities they find for their free time. People who are unstable take many things way more seriously than someone who's sane.

[Virgil Showlion]

I was surprised at the number of young people who took what happened in that game very, very seriously. We had a few threats of suicide over game events, and had to act to stop something terrible from happening. While you might not do this, and I might not do this, I really believe you might be surprised at the number of people who WILL do this.

I have no doubt mmhmm.

And not only in our culture. Gaming addiction is a huge social problem in South Korea, Japan, even certain places in India.

If a whitepaper claims that Johnny shot his teacher because "a video game taught him to do it", I won't dismiss the claim out of hand. There's no doubt about it: video games glorify violence. If an individual cannot dissociate video game violence from real violence—which I imagine will be an increasingly common occurrence as the frontiers of gaming realism continue to advance—then watch out.

I wouldn't want to be within 20 miles of any kid (or man) who had access to weapons, who had played the game I described in the OP, and who had even the slightest inability to differentiate between his virtual actions and his real actions.

ETA: I think the real question is, though: are the games enough of a threat that banning them is the answer?

Personally, I feel our society is ill, and getting more so by the day. There may well come a point where the sickness is so pervasive and video games are such a terrible stimulus in the hands of a sick individual that they simply aren't worth it.

The healthy majority will have to "take one for the team", in the same way that we're all taking one for the team by drinking fluoridated water, and taking one for the team by submitting to airport security, etc.

[Sammy]

Jazuz, how old are some of you??

[hoops902]

::The healthy majority will have to "take one for the team", in the same way that we're all taking one for the team by drinking fluoridated water, and taking one for the team by submitting to airport security, etc.::

By that logic we'll all be taking one for the team by eliminating airplanes, no airplanes means no crashing airplanes into buildings. Same goes for shoes, occasionally kids get killed for their shoes, just get rid of them and we'll eliminate violence. Also colors, gangs use colors to represent their affiliation, no colors will mean no more gang violence.

[beags]

hmm, I think the only thing I have played on the kids' X-box is Red Dead Redemption. I have watched them play all the war games though. They look a little too complicated for me though. There is one game that is either out now, or will be out. I can never remember the name of it, but I have seen it advertised a couple of times. It's like the same thing as those war games on ground . . only this is in the air with fighter jets.

That one I could see myself getting frustrated while learning to play it. I don't know why .. but I would like to play that game. The other war games well I'm just not that interested in the frustration level it would take for me to learn it.

[hoops902]

Jul 23, 2012 17:06:09 GMT -5 Sammy said:

Jazuz, how old are some of you??

I'm gonna guess those on the "video games cause violence" kick are either over 40 or haven't played "violent" video games, not ones they claim are "realistic" anyways.

[Spellbound454]

My Son, then 15, whined for GTA San Andreas for his birthday.
I hadn't really taken any notice of the games the boys were playing in their bedroom.... but when I saw this, I was horrified.
It was replaced by a fairly innocuous Bart Simpson adventure thing.
My fault for being stupid...but I honestly had no idea.

[hoops902]

::I think the only thing I have played on the kids' X-box is Red Dead Redemption.::

I hope you don't let your children play it. Before you know it they'll be stealing horses and firing off six-shooters, robbing trains, invading spanish forts, etc.

[beags]

Jul 23, 2012 16:45:14 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

My daughter is one of those sweet, sensitive souls. She like to play video games where you pet animals.

In my own experience, with my own daughter and the girls that are friends with my children. . . . I just don't think girls like the war games as much as the guys do.

Most of the girls like the fantasy games . . . like Catherine, that one with Link in it . . Zelda? those type . . . there are many, but I forget the names. My daughter likes those types of games.

Whereas my son . . . if he's playing a video game . . it's a war type game.

[beags]

Jul 23, 2012 17:14:01 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

::I think the only thing I have played on the kids' X-box is Red Dead Redemption.::

I hope you don't let your children play it. Before you know it they'll be stealing horses and firing off six-shooters, robbing trains, invading spanish forts, etc.

I'm a horrible parent, I know.

[hoops902]

Jul 23, 2012 17:12:57 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

My Son, then 15, whined for GTA San Andreas for his birthday.
I hadn't really taken any notice of the games the boys were playing in their bedroom.... but when I saw this, I was horrified.
It was replaced by a fairly innocuous Bart Simpson adventure thing.
My fault for being stupid...but I honestly had no idea.

Who bought it for them? Because it's clearly labeled as "M" for Mature 17+ on the cover.

[beags]

Jul 23, 2012 17:12:27 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jul 23, 2012 17:06:09 GMT -5 Sammy said:

Jazuz, how old are some of you??

I'm gonna guess those on the "video games cause violence" kick are either over 40 or haven't played "violent" video games, not ones they claim are "realistic" anyways.

I'm over 40 and I've watched and/or played the games. video games can be fun.

[beags]

Jul 23, 2012 17:16:51 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jul 23, 2012 17:12:57 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

My Son, then 15, whined for GTA San Andreas for his birthday.
I hadn't really taken any notice of the games the boys were playing in their bedroom.... but when I saw this, I was horrified.
It was replaced by a fairly innocuous Bart Simpson adventure thing.
My fault for being stupid...but I honestly had no idea.

Who bought it for them? Because it's clearly labeled as "M" for Mature 17+ on the cover.

Do we need to resurrect the bad parent thread? LOL

[beags]

When my son was 15 I knowingly bought him a M for mature game. One of those Modern Warfare ones.


Thus far he hasn't went out and killed anyone yet. I'm disappointed.

[Spellbound454]

Who bought it for them? Because it's clearly labeled as "M" for Mature 17+ on the cover.

I bought it.....but then I hadn't realised what it was about... or the level of violence contained in it.
Clearly unsuitable for my kids...although they had apparently played it at another boys house already.

[hoops902]

Jul 23, 2012 17:19:02 GMT -5 beags said:

Jul 23, 2012 17:16:51 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Who bought it for them? Because it's clearly labeled as "M" for Mature 17+ on the cover.

Do we need to resurrect the bad parent thread? LOL

I'm ok with parents buying a 15 year old that game, it just seems like a waste to do so, then be "horrified", then go get them a different game when it's blatant from the start that anything rated "Mature 17+" is going to more than Bart Simpsonesque.

You wouldn't take your 15 year old to an R-rated movie and then walk out horrified because they swear in it.

[Virgil Showlion]

By that logic we'll all be taking one for the team by eliminating airplanes, no airplanes means no crashing airplanes into buildings. Same goes for shoes, occasionally kids get killed for their shoes, just get rid of them and we'll eliminate violence. Also colors, gangs use colors to represent their affiliation, no colors will mean no more gang violence.

Yes, reductio ad absurdum. :-\

I would instead say:

A) You have to quantify how big the problem is.

B) You have to quantify how likely taking away the stimulus will impact the problem.

C) You have to quantify what the penalty is to society for doing away with the stimulus. Can it be accomplished? What is lost in the process?

If A*B > C, "taking one for the team" is the reasonable option. In your examples (the first where A is tiny and B is unity, the second where A is large and B is infinitesimal, and both having astronomical C), the inequality is rather obvious.

For video games, A is small but (in theory) growing rapidly, nobody has any idea what B is, and C, although large, might ultimately not be as large as A*B. If nutjob becomes the new normal, your ability to go to a movie theater without getting shot outweighs your love of video games.

[Malarky]

Jul 23, 2012 16:45:14 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

My daughter is one of those sweet, sensitive souls. She like to play video games where you pet animals.

When I used to play video games it was referred to as "slaughtering hedgehogs." Sonic in particular.

I game as well as I ski, with a great deal of enthusiasm, and very little skill.

And sign me back up for the "bad parent" thread. Both DS and DD have been known to waste their days on WOW. ;D