Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 19:09:52 GMT -5
I totally won this one. I'm winning the drug test one. And I won the mommy war one from yesterday.
|
|
Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
|
Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 19:11:42 GMT -5
I ask you, who won the karma contest? Ohh I think it was... let me think... YEAH THAT'S RIGHT ME. Anyway, who says you're winning these debates? I personally think you've been getting WAY too emotional and hormonal to make many decent points.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 19:13:10 GMT -5
Hey! Quit stealing my lines!!!
|
|
Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
|
Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 19:40:34 GMT -5
Take it easy with the hormonal rages, buddy. I understand you're upset I won the karma contest but you need to just let it go.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 1:13:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2012 19:47:43 GMT -5
It is obvious neither of you ever work in a restaurant. Do you know what will happen if you get rid of tipping? Then all bills will have a 15-20% autograt, because they want the servers wanting to turn tables, so just having a hourly wage will cause the servers to not work as hard. Also, servers do side work and they would like pay as little as possible for that. Then once the autograt is on each check, the niceties will go down. So when you ask a server for extra x is our meal, you will get that is an extra .50-$2, will that be ok, instead of the server going in the back and saying to the cook, hey do me a favorite, slip me extra x for my table. They are will no longer working for both you and the restaurant but just the restaurant and have no reason to call on favors to not charge you, in hopes for a better tip. I have many examples of what wold disappear if we went that way, and examples of places where it happened.
|
|
Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
|
Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 19:59:41 GMT -5
It is obvious neither of you ever work in a restaurant.
Neither of who?
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 20:11:30 GMT -5
It is obvious neither of you ever work in a restaurant. Do you know what will happen if you get rid of tipping? Then all bills will have a 15-20% autograt, because they want the servers wanting to turn tables, so just having a hourly wage will cause the servers to not work as hard. Also, servers do side work and they would like pay as little as possible for that. Then once the autograt is on each check, the niceties will go down. So when you ask a server for extra x is our meal, you will get that is an extra .50-$2, will that be ok, instead of the server going in the back and saying to the cook, hey do me a favorite, slip me extra x for my table. They are will no longer working for both you and the restaurant but just the restaurant and have no reason to call on favors to not charge you, in hopes for a better tip. I have many examples of what wold disappear if we went that way, and examples of places where it happened. So instead of the servers "wanting to turn tables" I'll be able to sit there and enjoy my meal without being rushed out? Oh nooooooooooooo. And the servers will also stop ripping off the restaurant for freebies by sneaking them to the customers? Oh noooooo. So your examples are that if servers stop working for tips then customers won't be rushed out the door as quickly and servers will stop stealing from the restaurant. And an autogratuity is still tipping, we're talking about no tipping, not automatic tipping. NO one is talking about automatic tipping, and the restaurant certainly isn't going to pay servers commission when they could be paying them far less. Thank you for making a great argument for giving up the tipping system, apparently it will eliminate being rushed to turn a table and servers stealing from the restaurant.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 20, 2012 20:47:33 GMT -5
"It's not digging ditches, but you still have your share of heavy lifting and being screamed at Not to mention being sliced, burned, and falling on slippery floors. It's not a job I'd be wanting to do in my 50s, that's for sure."
Well, not to turn this into a "who has it worse" thread, but while serving is a difficult job, I'd say retail and other menial jobs are the same if not worse in some regards, and they don't get tips. I worked retail in high school and the summer after college. I was on my feet all day dealing with (often demanding) customers. I worked in a home improvement store and had to lift stuff WAAAAAY heavier than most servers (think a 300 pound solid stone bird bath). There were all kinds of blades and things to cut yourself and get knicked up.
But that's not the point, the point is working retail is in many ways similar to working as a server, and I never got tips. There are still no shortage of people willing to work retail and do at least an acceptable job working $7.25 an hour.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 1:13:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2012 22:31:02 GMT -5
It is obvious neither of you ever work in a restaurant. Do you know what will happen if you get rid of tipping? Then all bills will have a 15-20% autograt, because they want the servers wanting to turn tables, so just having a hourly wage will cause the servers to not work as hard. Also, servers do side work and they would like pay as little as possible for that. Then once the autograt is on each check, the niceties will go down. So when you ask a server for extra x is our meal, you will get that is an extra .50-$2, will that be ok, instead of the server going in the back and saying to the cook, hey do me a favorite, slip me extra x for my table. They are will no longer working for both you and the restaurant but just the restaurant and have no reason to call on favors to not charge you, in hopes for a better tip. I have many examples of what wold disappear if we went that way, and examples of places where it happened. So instead of the servers "wanting to turn tables" I'll be able to sit there and enjoy my meal without being rushed out? Oh nooooooooooooo. And the servers will also stop ripping off the restaurant for freebies by sneaking them to the customers? Oh noooooo. So your examples are that if servers stop working for tips then customers won't be rushed out the door as quickly and servers will stop stealing from the restaurant. And an autogratuity is still tipping, we're talking about no tipping, not automatic tipping. NO one is talking about automatic tipping, and the restaurant certainly isn't going to pay servers commission when they could be paying them far less. Thank you for making a great argument for giving up the tipping system, apparently it will eliminate being rushed to turn a table and servers stealing from the restaurant. As a server I never rushed anyone out, why would I if I wanted a good tip? And I am telling you, restaurants would not give up tipping, they will just autograt everything. Doing that will end up being cheaper for them than raising the wage. And given that restaurant managers have worked in restaurants they know they are are getting items for free, they don't mind it, if done correctly because it keeps the customer happy but it is up to the server and if the server says no, the manager is not going to override it, in most cases.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jul 21, 2012 8:59:40 GMT -5
::And I am telling you, restaurants would not give up tipping, they will just autograt everything. Doing that will end up being cheaper for them than raising the wage.::
This point is moot because this is not what is being discussed. And it won't end up being cheaper because this is a worse idea than either tipping or not tipping and would probably cause the restaurant to go out of business. It's also NOT cheaper at all. They would make more money raising all prices 20% than they would autogratting everyone 20%, because they could pay the servers less and pocket the difference. Setting up an autograt doesn't make sense from anyone's perspective as a business model.
:: And given that restaurant managers have worked in restaurants they know they are are getting items for free, they don't mind it::
If they don't mind it now they're not going to randomly start caring if there's no tipping.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 1:13:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2012 9:38:15 GMT -5
Okay, I'm a little behind but...
for context, I hate tipping. I hate the whole system. I go to a no-tip hair salon specifically because it is a no-tip salon. I'd love to see it eliminated, but it is the system we have, so I play along with the system. I think there are some server stereotypes about women and tipping, so it is possible that I over-compensate. I don't like that the server doesn't know how much I usually tip, they don't know if the tip should be interpreted as an "atta boy" or a "you totally blew this." But it is what it is. In the end, for the difference of $1 or two, I'd just assume not be perceived as cheap.
All of that aside, Dark, you are overestimating the public's ability to think rationally and/or do math. If you increased prices by 10-20% and eliminated tipping, folks would be mad about a place they frequented raising their prices. Of course, that may just mean all of the Applebee's patrons leave for Olive Garden in a huff, and all of the Olive Garden patrons leave for Applebee's in a huff and it ends up being a wash.
And as much as I hate tipping, there is something to be said for money as a performance incentive. Usually, your employer incentivizes your performance through your wages. But a restaurant owner makes more money if they sell more product and flip more tables. The restaurant owner doesn't get any benefit from letting me linger over coffee, recommending a cheaper bottle of wine if I am more apt to enjoy it, or whatever. There may be some benefits to having the server work for me as well as for their employer.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 1:13:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2012 9:45:31 GMT -5
Dark Honor VERSUS Firebird! Geeeet rrreeaddy to RRRRRUmmmmmbbbbllleee! Those would be great names for the WWF!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 1:13:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2012 9:46:53 GMT -5
I totally won this one. I'm winning the drug test one. And I won the mommy war one from yesterday. I missed the mommy war! What thread was that?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 1:13:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2012 9:48:57 GMT -5
I can't stand when a gratuity is automatically added to your bill. Is a tip voluntary or not? Is it a required charge or not? If not, how can they just automatically add it to a party of 6 or more? If they want to put add a required surcharge, fine. But, adding a gratuity is just a bit sleazy to me.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Jul 21, 2012 10:20:39 GMT -5
Agreed. Most people aren't going to put together increased prices + no tip = same end price. Sad, but that's how people are.
Plus, there are plenty who routinely tip less than 10 percent and for whom a 20 percent autograt would be enough of an increase to keep them from dining out. My grandpa is a good example - to him, $1 is a generous tip, because that bought him a new pair of boots in 1940 or whatever. Doesn't matter if the check is $5 or $60. (And he is otherwise a very kind person - he just has no concept of modern prices because his fixed expenses are so low). The waitstaff would love to lose these kinds of customers... the restaurant, not so much.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jul 21, 2012 14:51:35 GMT -5
Agreed. Most people aren't going to put together increased prices + no tip = same end price. Sad, but that's how people are. Plus, there are plenty who routinely tip less than 10 percent and for whom a 20 percent autograt would be enough of an increase to keep them from dining out. My grandpa is a good example - to him, $1 is a generous tip, because that bought him a new pair of boots in 1940 or whatever. Doesn't matter if the check is $5 or $60. (And he is otherwise a very kind person - he just has no concept of modern prices because his fixed expenses are so low). The waitstaff would love to lose these kinds of customers... the restaurant, not so much. At the same time, you can't only consider one side of the equation. Some people will eat out more because they don't have to deal with tipping. And losing customers isn't necessarily bad for the restaurant if you also buy into the theory that the restaurant will simply pay the servers minimum wage and pocket the difference between the wages and the 20% markup. (or the restaurant raises the markup only to the extent that they need it to cover server minimum wage if they're worried about losing customers, in which case they don't need to mark up that much at all). Mathematically even if you talk about a low end place, they already pay the servers over $2 generally, a server waiting on 5 tables in an hour only needs about $1 per table to hit minimum wage. If you consider an average bill to be $20 at these low end places they need to raise prices only 5% to hit minimum wage. And I'd be willing to bet the average bill is higher.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Jul 21, 2012 15:09:32 GMT -5
Restaurants that pay their servers the legal minimum wage already have upped their prices to reflect that.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 22, 2012 0:05:28 GMT -5
I've been a dishwasher, waiter, prep cook, buffet cook, line cook... and I think that's it. Oh, and one place I worked was a truck stop restaurant with a little convenience store so I was a cashier/waiter for awhile.
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,162
|
Post by tallguy on Jul 22, 2012 12:46:17 GMT -5
That might be me. I eat out as little as necessary, and never do it just for me. Part of it is certainly because I don't get enough value from the experience, but it is at least as much that I hate the entire concept of "expected" tipping. I think it is ridiculous and should be abolished. If a customer wishes to reward an employee of a business who goes way above and beyond, then fine, I have no problem with that. But to have a system where customers are expected to tip is grotesque.
Restaurants should be paying their workers properly and setting their prices to reflect that, just like other businesses do. And why in the world should a tip be based on a percentage of the bill? Servers in high-end places don't work any harder in my experience than in lower-end ones. They don't deserve ten times as much because my dinner cost $200 instead of $20. And why also is the expected tipping percentage continually increasing? I remember when it was 10%, and it was likely lower before that. Then it went to 15%. Now it is 20% (supposedly changed from 15% because the American consumer was too stupid to calculate 15%) and I hear arguments for and people bragging about paying 25%. Stupid.
The one valid premise in all of that is that the American consumer is stupid. That I'll agree with.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 1:13:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 13:10:17 GMT -5
That might be me. I eat out as little as necessary, and never do it just for me. Part of it is certainly because I don't get enough value from the experience, but it is at least as much that I hate the entire concept of "expected" tipping. I think it is ridiculous and should be abolished. If a customer wishes to reward an employee of a business who goes way above and beyond, then fine, I have no problem with that. But to have a system where customers are expected to tip is grotesque. Restaurants should be paying their workers properly and setting their prices to reflect that, just like other businesses do. And why in the world should a tip be based on a percentage of the bill? Servers in high-end places don't work any harder in my experience than in lower-end ones. They don't deserve ten times as much because my dinner cost $200 instead of $20. And why also is the expected tipping percentage continually increasing? I remember when it was 10%, and it was likely lower before that. Then it went to 15%. Now it is 20% (supposedly changed from 15% because the American consumer was too stupid to calculate 15%) and I hear arguments for and people bragging about paying 25%. Stupid. The one valid premise in all of that is that the American consumer is stupid. That I'll agree with. I started at a lower middle restaurant and worked my way up to nice and nicer restaurants and yes the servers do work harder. Their is more the upper end restaurants expect you to know, you are expected to spend more time per table, be able to explain and know each item etc. In a breakfast place a server may have 7-8 tables at a time (and spends less time per table), a nice restaurant would have 4-5 tables at a time and spends a lot more time per table with refills, explaining specials etc. Are you tell me, you are not treated differently at a low end restaurant from a high one? ETA: And the increase from 10% is because of two things, one the required tax on a percent of sales, if it has not been earned, and that now most restaurants you tip out the host, busser and bar.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 22, 2012 14:15:40 GMT -5
So you're saying that having to know more about the menu and spend more time at the table talking to the guests is working harder than having more tables and spending more time actually taking orders, delivering food, refilling drinks, etc.? That's a kind of funny definition of hard work.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 1:13:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 14:25:26 GMT -5
So you're saying that having to know more about the menu and spend more time at the table talking to the guests is working harder than having more tables and spending more time actually taking orders, delivering food, refilling drinks, etc.? That's a kind of funny definition of hard work. I've done both, and yes, I would say that. Just as I would say being a lawyer is harder than being a paralegal. Having more knowledge, and getting that knowledge is harder. I will say at my higher end restaurants I had more training than the suicide hotline or boarder patrol, I found that sad and amusing.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 22, 2012 14:34:38 GMT -5
Sure, but standing around talking to people is a lot easier physically than simultaneously serving 8 tables.
I do a knowledge based job now. It's way way easier than the couple days I spent working with a concrete/asphalt crew. It takes a lot longer to get the knowledge you need to do my job than it does to learn to tie rebar, but I work a lot less hard on a daily basis now that I have that knowledge.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Jul 22, 2012 18:20:39 GMT -5
Yup, and a place like OCEAN PRIME who charges prime prices will have a hard time justifying those prices if they hire idiot servers like the one who didn't know there was a difference between bay and sea scallops. That was just the beginning of our bad meal. Every time I asked a question about an entree, she had to excuse herself to go ask. I finally called the manager over and started asking him questions about the seafood. An ignorant server can ruin the dining experience. When an entree starts out high and everything is al a carte, you better know your shit or your tip will really relflect that you don't. I hope the manager chewed her a new one. There's no way someone so inexperienced and ignorant should be working there. You can be a dummy at Steak and Shake.
|
|
TheOtherMe
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
Posts: 27,206
Mini-Profile Name Color: e619e6
|
Post by TheOtherMe on Jul 22, 2012 19:28:58 GMT -5
My grandpa is a good example - to him, $1 is a generous tip, because that bought him a new pair of boots in 1940 or whatever. Doesn't matter if the check is $5 or $60. (And he is otherwise a very kind person - he just has no concept of modern prices because his fixed expenses are so low). The waitstaff would love to lose these kinds of customers... the restaurant, not so much. My dad is 88 and he leaves $1. Sometimes my aunt will be with us and says I will leave the $1 next time. I try to sneak back and leave a better tip, but he caught me the last time and now won't go with me to places where tips should be left. In his defense, my parents are on fixed incomes, social security and a low pension. They try to keep their expenses down and only go to the place I like when I am in town. I see these people at my favorite restaurant. I asked one of the servers about people of my dad's generation. She said some are like my dad, some never leave anything and some come in every day because they are lonely and if she takes the time to talk to them, they leave a decent tip. I don't know what she means by decent.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 1:13:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 20:14:49 GMT -5
My grandpa is a good example - to him, $1 is a generous tip, because that bought him a new pair of boots in 1940 or whatever. Doesn't matter if the check is $5 or $60. (And he is otherwise a very kind person - he just has no concept of modern prices because his fixed expenses are so low). The waitstaff would love to lose these kinds of customers... the restaurant, not so much. My dad is 88 and he leaves $1. Sometimes my aunt will be with us and says I will leave the $1 next time. I try to sneak back and leave a better tip, but he caught me the last time and now won't go with me to places where tips should be left. In his defense, my parents are on fixed incomes, social security and a low pension. They try to keep their expenses down and only go to the place I like when I am in town. I see these people at my favorite restaurant. I asked one of the servers about people of my dad's generation. She said some are like my dad, some never leave anything and some come in every day because they are lonely and if she takes the time to talk to them, they leave a decent tip. I don't know what she means by decent. I want to give them the "aw, old people are so cute" pass, but I just can't. I'll allow that the 15-20% standard tip is fairly new, tipping is not new. We have been tipping for centuries. And the standard used to be 10-15%. So, unless the bill was less than $10, your Dad/Grandpa doesn't get the cute old guy pass. He's cheap. And he should know he's being cheap. I empathize about the fixed income part, but that's hardly the server's fault.
|
|
Formerly SK
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 27, 2011 14:23:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,255
|
Post by Formerly SK on Jul 22, 2012 21:30:41 GMT -5
Since the 10% of sales thing was mentioned a few times, I thought I'd check out the IRS website as memory served it was 8% of sales back when I waitressed. Yes, it is 8% of sales. www.irs.gov/businesses/small/industries/article/0,,id=98401,00.html That said, there are several ways to calculate your tips for reporting purposes so no one should be screwed by the 8% rule. The 8% rule is also null/void for many/most servers nowadays as CC are used so frequently for restaurants and the tip is quite clearly designated on the receipt. If you tip someone $10, that exact $10 will be reported, not the percent of sale.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,267
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 22, 2012 22:06:40 GMT -5
A lot of people still tip in cash. How it worked when I was serving three years ago was every credit card was automatically logged in the POS and every cash transaction was logged. It kept track of how much I was selling. If I got a credit card tip it kept track of that too. It did not track cash tips automatically. At the end of the night I was supposed to enter in exactly how much I had earned (cash + credit card). The computer would then reconcile it with my total sales. If I had not met 10% it would flag my number which was my SSN. Get enough of them I and the resturant would have been flagged by the IRS for an audit come tax time. This is how servers cheat the system. You don't report the cash, you just report the credit card tips. As long as your credit card tips even out and you are not dumb enough to under report every single time, it's really easy to cheat. I was instruced in this art by the server that trained me. I never cheated becaues I was always paranoid I'd get caught. Just doesn't seem worth it to me but if servers can bank $70k+ then perhaps I was an idiot
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Jul 23, 2012 6:49:40 GMT -5
I always leave my tips in cash or a combo of both. Because DD was a server. So maybe 15 per cent on the bill if I pay with a cc and the rest in cash.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 23, 2012 7:38:19 GMT -5
"And why also is the expected tipping percentage continually increasing? I remember when it was 10%, and it was likely lower before that. Then it went to 15%. Now it is 20% (supposedly changed from 15% because the American consumer was too stupid to calculate 15%) and I hear arguments for and people bragging about paying 25%. Stupid."
Yeah, the precentage keeps going up. I think 10% is perfectly fine, but seems 20% is the standard most people use.
But yes, I just wish they paid their servers minimum wage (or close to it) and charged appropriately for their food. I'm certainly you'll still find plenty of people willing to be servers, just like you do for other hard low wage jobs like retail, and if the server isn't good you fire them and hire someone else.
|
|