midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 20, 2012 12:50:37 GMT -5
That is definitely a complaint that should be made to management. We weren't allowed to leave food sitting in the window for more than a minute - if we couldn't/wouldn't run our own order, someone else would. Under no circumstances should food just sit there under the warming lights.
And that waitress should have been written up or even fired. No excuse for that kind of service.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 20, 2012 12:56:37 GMT -5
When DD worked at Cody's, if a server asked about the change, they were fired on the spot. I leave no tip to a server who asks me that. I'll decide on your tip, thank you very much.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 20, 2012 13:09:53 GMT -5
I am skeptical over the argument that service will suffer if servers were paid a flat wage. Most jobs out there are not tip based, and those jobs have people who do them just fine. I don't get tips for my job and I still do the best I can because it's my job. That's how most jobs in the world operate. It's my managers job to make sure I have satisfactory performance, I don't see how the restaraunt industry is any different.
As a side note, look at how tipping is handled in other cultures. In Japaneese culture for instance, tipping is actually considered insulting.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 20, 2012 13:11:56 GMT -5
As a side issue, I have a tipping question.
I sometimes go to local restaraunt where you order your food at the counter and get your own drink like a fast food restaraunt. But you order and sit down a table of your choosing and they bring your food out. But since you have to get your own drink/refills, order your food at the counter, and seat yourself I feel they don't deserve a tip just for bringing your food to you. However, when you pay they ask for it on the receipt.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 13:20:24 GMT -5
I am skeptical over the argument that service will suffer if servers were paid a flat wage. Most jobs out there are not tip based, and those jobs have people who do them just fine. I don't get tips for my job and I still do the best I can because it's my job. That's how most jobs in the world operate. It's my managers job to make sure I have satisfactory performance, I don't see how the restaraunt industry is any different.Again, I see food service as a sales job which is one of the exceptions to the "most jobs don't have tips and the service is fine" thing. Ideally, the server should be the one "selling" you the food. In sales positions, the better/more/higher end items you sell, the better you do. (I realize that not all cultures have tipping, but ours does and I think this is why.) And you better believe performance in sales job would suffer if you took the incentives out of them Most sales jobs are fairly low paid, it's the sales that drive your salary - kind of like tips.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 20, 2012 13:30:11 GMT -5
As a side issue, I have a tipping question. I sometimes go to local restaraunt where you order your food at the counter and get your own drink like a fast food restaraunt. But you order and sit down a table of your choosing and they bring your food out. But since you have to get your own drink/refills, order your food at the counter, and seat yourself I feel they don't deserve a tip just for bringing your food to you. However, when you pay they ask for it on the receipt. I don't tip at Buffets or things like that. Unless the person assigned to that section is pretty quick on refilling my drink. If I have to refill it myself, you get nothing.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 20, 2012 13:30:56 GMT -5
I've noticed they have a 'tip' line on almost any food-service receipt now - all the local coffee places have them, even though there's always a tip jar on the counter. I don't usually tip in the above situations, because I think these employees all make at least MW. (Noodles & Co is one with that kind of service, they actually have a sign telling you not to tip).
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 13:33:57 GMT -5
Not often, but I've done it. We've also walked out in the middle of a meal that was truly atrocious.
Not in this state. Waitstaff in California gets the normal minimum wage. I tend to tip 15-20% anyway, but if I'm being completely honest minimum wage is a perfectly adequate wage for a job that basically entails writing down my order as I give it to you, delivering that to the kitchen, and bringing me back the food when it's ready. We're talking about low level service workers here not rocket scientists.
Now to read the actual thread...
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 13:40:01 GMT -5
::Again, I see food service as a sales job which is one of the exceptions to the "most jobs don't have tips and the service is fine" thing.::
Most sales jobs are not tip-based. They are commissions based, and the commissions are paid by the employer. In fact almost no sales jobs are tip based, most tip jobs are service based...which is ok since being a server is far more service based than sales.
Arguing that food service is a sales job is an even great reason not to have it based on tips. If you're arguing it's a sales jobs, then the rather simple argument is that sales jobs are based on commissions paid by employers, not tips based on quality of service.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2012 13:50:53 GMT -5
I've noticed they have a 'tip' line on almost any food-service receipt now - all the local coffee places have them, even though there's always a tip jar on the counter. I don't usually tip in the above situations, because I think these employees all make at least MW. (Noodles & Co is one with that kind of service, they actually have a sign telling you not to tip). I worked at a college cafeteria where you pick up your food & then run through a line to purchase. We had a tip line, but it was meaningless. I think I had like 2 people add a tip ever, but there wasn't even a way to enter in the computer. From that experience, I ignore the tip line if I feel it is somewhere I shouldn't tip.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 13:54:02 GMT -5
I think the tip line is now programmed into some machines because I remember seeing it once at a store like Target and thinking WTF? I figured it's something that is automatically programmed nowadays and you have to go in and remove the tip line.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 14:09:56 GMT -5
Arguing that food service is a sales job is an even great reason not to have it based on tips. If you're arguing it's a sales jobs, then the rather simple argument is that sales jobs are based on commissions paid by employers, not tips based on quality of service.
Not necessarily - my point is that the tip is a performance incentive. Performance incentives for sales jobs DO come from commissions generally, but there's no law that says they can't come directly from your clientele.
I shouldn't have said it IS a sales job. I should have said that it is LIKE a sales job in the sense that if you were only paid the minimum base wage, hardly anyone would do it. But since you do have the option of being paid much more, more people will do it and try to do a better job than if they were only in it for that base wage.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 14:17:51 GMT -5
Disagree. The dishwasher is back there busting his ass for minimum wage, and there are no shortage of applications for those openings at any restaurant I ever worked. They'd happily move to front of the house for the same wage and less work.
Waiting tables can be stressful, especially under bad management that doesn't hire and schedule enough waitstaff for the level of business they get, but it's not actually that hard of a job to do. You're on your feet all day, but you aren't digging ditches, you aren't hauling construction materials around in the cold and heat, you aren't stuck getting screamed at all day while trying to do telemarketing. As low skill jobs go, waiting tables isn't actually that bad, tips or no tips.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2012 14:23:04 GMT -5
Speaking of tipping... has anyone ever heard of Springs1? She has gained internet fame by being a lunatic and overly excitable about restaurant service and tipping... Here's her live journal link, www.blogger.com/profile/16330862403978274454 she also stalks serving blogs and message boards. If you have trouble understanding her, there is a online translator to help. She seems a little angry
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 14:25:47 GMT -5
::I should have said that it is LIKE a sales job in the sense that if you were only paid the minimum base wage, hardly anyone would do it.::
Really? Is McDonald's hurting for employees? What about supermarkets? Many of them pay minimum wage. If we tipped cashier's maybe they'd do a better job of getting us through the line. The ONLY difference is that tipping waitstaff is tradition, there's nothing intrinsic in the job that means they need to be on tips rather than salary imo.
I'm not arguing that it should change, it's tradition and it's hard to change tradition. I'm only arguing that at the heart of what they do, it's no different than any other service job. If you took any other service job, paid people low wages, and told them they'd work for tips, you'd have the same thing as you have with waitstaff. But the entire serving system would not come crashing down if we paid them salary instead.
::But since you do have the option of being paid much more, more people will do it and try to do a better job than if they were only in it for that base wage. ::
I agree with this, but it has nothing to do with food service. This is true for any job anywhere. If you offer anyone in any line of work a massive % of their salary based on one thing, you will have lots of people trying to do it to make bigger money than if you paid them a set low wage. It's no different than working as a bank teller, supermarket cashier, the guy at the meat counter, a bartender, or store clerk. Some get tips, some don't. There's nothing intrinsic about any of them that make some best for one system and some for another. If you paid supermarket cashiers in tips and they could now make 3x what they're worth by being fast, you'd have a ton of them also.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2012 14:26:49 GMT -5
Disagree. The dishwasher is back there busting his ass for minimum wage, and there are no shortage of applications for those openings at any restaurant I ever worked. They'd happily move to front of the house for the same wage and less work. Waiting tables can be stressful, especially under bad management that doesn't hire and schedule enough waitstaff for the level of business they get, but it's not actually that hard of a job to do. You're on your feet all day, but you aren't digging ditches, you aren't hauling construction materials around in the cold and heat, you aren't stuck getting screamed at all day while trying to do telemarketing. As low skill jobs go, waiting tables isn't actually that bad, tips or no tips. That is going to depend on the state. Sure I think in Cali, the waitress & dishwasher make the same minimum wage. But, in some other other states the servers are only making $2.13/hr. That is pretty bad without tips.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 14:31:09 GMT -5
Yeah, but you're only allowed, as an employer, to pay that lower minimum wage if they're regularly making enough in tips to get back up to at least the regular minimum wage. In other words, if we got rid of tipping waitstaff, they'd get the same $8/hr minimum wage that the dishwasher gets now.
ETA - Or $7.25, or whatever the federal min is right now.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 14:31:43 GMT -5
But, in some other other states the servers are only making $2.13/hr. That is pretty bad without tips.
They can't pay you less than minimum wage. It is assumed when you are a server you make enough in tips a night to bump you up to minimum.
If you do not, then they are required to pay you the difference to up your wages to minimum.
They can't tell you if you make $0 in tips that they will only pay you $2.13/hr for your time worked.
That's why you have to enter your sales into the computer. So when it comes time to do payroll they can calculate out how much they need to pay you.
And that's how servers scam it too. You claim less tips, you get a bigger paycheck AND pocket the tips.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 14:32:35 GMT -5
::That is going to depend on the state. Sure I think in Cali, the waitress & dishwasher make the same minimum wage. But, in some other other states the servers are only making $2.13/hr. That is pretty bad without tips. ::
Yes but you still can't make below minimum wage, so if the entire paradigm changed to hourly rate and no tips, you'd be making at least minimum wage by law.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 20, 2012 14:33:12 GMT -5
It's not digging ditches, but you still have your share of heavy lifting and being screamed at Not to mention being sliced, burned, and falling on slippery floors. It's not a job I'd be wanting to do in my 50s, that's for sure.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 14:33:16 GMT -5
Disagree. The dishwasher is back there busting his ass for minimum wage, and there are no shortage of applications for those openings at any restaurant I ever worked. They'd happily move to front of the house for the same wage and less work.
Ah, but the dishwasher/busboy role is generally considered "unskilled" and the territory of immigrants more often than not. It's the inability to speak good English that generally disqualifies them from the front-of-house roles, at least in all the restaurants I've ever worked.
That wouldn't change even if the pay scale did.
Really? Is McDonald's hurting for employees? What about supermarkets? Many of them pay minimum wage. If we tipped cashier's maybe they'd do a better job of getting us through the line. The ONLY difference is that tipping waitstaff is tradition, there's nothing intrinsic in the job that means they need to be on tips rather than salary imo.
Again, McDonald's is more of an "unskilled" job. I can assure you that I would have much rather been waiting tables instead of working there during my last couple months of college, except that there weren't any waitstaff positions available and McD's was right there. So yeah, I did it, but no, it wasn't my first choice and I certainly would have moved on rapidly had that been my actual career rather than my "I need to pay rent and buy food while I finish college" job.
And personally, I think that most "unskilled" positions WOULD rise in performance quality if tipping were part of the picture. That's just how things work. If you aren't being paid based on performance, you tend to work hard enough not to get hassled/fired but you aren't going to do any gymnastics to set new customer service records.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 14:35:46 GMT -5
Yes but you still can't make below minimum wage, so if the entire paradigm changed to hourly rate and no tips, you'd be making at least minimum wage by law.
The difference is that you wouldn't be making much above it as an average server because (again, just my conjecture) most chain-type restaurants wouldn't be willing to raise their food prices beyond what they saw customers being willing to pay to cover service charges. I sincerely doubt that would be even the "standard" 15%. So yeah, they'd still get something close to the minimum wage. Problem would be that they no longer had the potential to make anything more.
Most servers, at present, do the job because they can basically COUNT on making much more than minimum wage. If most servers made just above minimum wage, they wouldn't be doing the job - they'd be doing something else instead.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 14:39:19 GMT -5
Which is fine. We have plenty of unemployed people that would take the minimum wage serving jobs they left behind.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 14:41:17 GMT -5
Nobody wants to be doing entry level work in their 50s. That doesn't mean we need to pay far too much for entry level work.
Not really. They're both basically the same job. Keep the customer happy, get them their food in a reasonable amount of time, and don't fuck up the order. That's even more true at lower end chain restaurants. I've never asked my waitress at Denny's about the wine list, which ones come from local vineyards, where they source their protein, etc. Feel me?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 14:43:27 GMT -5
::Again, McDonald's is more of an "unskilled" job.::
"more" unskilled than what? A cashier at McDonald's listens to your order, inputs it, gathers your food, and hands it to you. The only difference is that a server has to remember where you're sitting. I'm not sure there's much difference at all actually.
I think do you do have a good point about the language barrier for many working washing dishes.
::I think that most "unskilled" positions WOULD rise in performance quality if tipping were part of the picture. That's just how things work.::
I agree, that's basically what I'm saying. I just don't think serving is any kind of specialty. I think that theory applies to most jobs.
::If most servers made just above minimum wage, they wouldn't be doing the job - they'd be doing something else instead.::
What would they be doing? They're unskilled labor. It's not like they're turning down $60K/year corporate positions to wait tables at Olive Garden. They ARE doing it because they can make more than minimum wage, so compared to other unskilled jobs it's relatively higher paying. But unless they have the ability to go make more than minimum wage anywhere else, that group as a whole doesn't have much in the way of options to just switch jobs.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 14:44:49 GMT -5
If most servers made just above minimum wage, they wouldn't be doing the job - they'd be doing something else instead.
Is there some giant pool of professional long term waiters I am missing?
Because in the 10 years I've done it I haven't met a single person that did it any longer than they had to. It was a pit-stop on our way to or in-between "real" jobs.
Servers are a highly transient population. Like Dark said if all these servers left because they suddenly could not make tips there would be plenty of people left to take their place.
I actually think it'd make service better to make it a "McJob" because you'd keep the idiots out who want to make "big money" under the table.
I provided good service because that is what I do, it is my job. The tips were nice but I wasn't going to give crappy service if I didn't get a good one.
Those people should be weeded out.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 14:48:07 GMT -5
I've known a few career waitresses. I'm not using that term to be sexist, it's just that every one I've known was female. For somebody with little or no job skills, waiting tables is probably the highest paying gig they're going to find. If you have a spouse that's working too, the combined pay is enough to raise kids on and whatnot.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 14:48:37 GMT -5
::I actually think it'd make service better to make it a "McJob" because you'd keep the idiots out who want to make "big money" under the table.::
Or the girls who think "I'm pretty, people will give me tips no matter how bad I am at the job", and then keep making money because people are stupid and do it.
::I provided good service because that is what I do, it is my job. The tips were nice but I wasn't going to give crappy service if I didn't get a good one.::
Personally I'd rather have someone fear losing their job than losing a couple of bucks if they decide to give crappy service.
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 20, 2012 14:48:38 GMT -5
I agree that waiting tables isn't digging ditches but it isn't rocket science either. I actually think working in the back of the house with a temperamental Hobart dishwasher requires a lot more skill than asking someone what they want to eat and writing it down on a paper. The only difference is some how we have made up a system that potentially pays the waiters way more than min wage but doesn't for any other low skill job. I still don't understand why that is either.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 14:50:12 GMT -5
I agree that waiting tables isn't digging ditches but it isn't rocket science either. I actually think working in the back of the house with a temperamental Hobart dishwasher requires a lot more skill than asking someone what they want to eat and writing it down on a paper. The only difference is some how we have made up a system that potentially pays the waiters way more than min wage but doesn't for any other low skill job. I still don't understand why that is either. Somehow hot college girls figured out how they could get paid for being good-looking without resorting to the strip club, and we all just kind of went along with it.
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