NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 14:52:07 GMT -5
I was scared of the dishwasher where I worked. I give props to the guy that ran that thing. I swear it's more complicated than the machines I run here in the lab.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 14:52:26 GMT -5
Which is fine. We have plenty of unemployed people that would take the minimum wage serving jobs they left behind.
Probably true. But I still think service quality would suffer. You'd be paying more on an involuntary basis for lesser-quality product. Not my idea of a smart move.
Not really. They're both basically the same job. Keep the customer happy, get them their food in a reasonable amount of time, and don't fuck up the order. That's even more true at lower end chain restaurants. I've never asked my waitress at Denny's about the wine list, which ones come from local vineyards, where they source their protein, etc. Feel me?
Denny's is a restaurant; McDonald's is a fast food restaurant. Big difference. For one, you punch in the orders and sit there and wait along with the customer, then you give them the orders and they walk away. For the other, there's more "serving" in the job.
I've done both. McD's is much easier than serving.
And no thanks, I don't want to feel you.
What would they be doing? They're unskilled labor. It's not like they're turning down $60K/year corporate positions to wait tables at Olive Garden. They ARE doing it because they can make more than minimum wage, so compared to other unskilled jobs it's relatively higher paying.
Not necessarily. As Drama said, if you're not a professional waiter (yes, Drama, they do exist - I met many when I lived in NYC, they consider waiting tables a career and they do quite well for themselves) you're most likely on your way to doing something else anyway.
The popularity of waiting tables is in the fact that you can make more than minimum wage doing it (combined with flexible hours - that's usually an attractive perk as well). My position is that this would change, and waiting would be no better than washing dishes at McD's in terms of pay and job desirability if tipping went away.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 20, 2012 14:53:26 GMT -5
I agree that waiting tables isn't digging ditches but it isn't rocket science either. I actually think working in the back of the house with a temperamental Hobart dishwasher requires a lot more skill than asking someone what they want to eat and writing it down on a paper. The only difference is some how we have made up a system that potentially pays the waiters way more than min wage but doesn't for any other low skill job. I still don't understand why that is either. Somehow hot college girls figured out how they could get paid for being good-looking without resorting to the strip club, and we all just kind of went along with it. It makes as much sence as anything I have everr heard as a reason. If I was going to tip someone to do a great job for me it would be my car mechanic. ;D He doesn't touch my food but he did touch my brakes.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 14:55:14 GMT -5
Oh, and while we're on the subject, I might as well gripe about my biggest restaurant pet peeve. I've waited tables and I've cooked. Cooking was by far the harder job to learn and do well. By far! When you finally get to the point that you can do a good job at it, you know what you get? You get customers that will ask to speak to you after their meal to rave about how great the food was. They thank you in person, which is a totally great feeling, don't get me wrong. It's always nice to be appreciated for your efforts. Then 5 minutes later you get to hear the fucking waitress bragging about the big tip she just got. They were happy because I made them great food. You're just the idiot who walked it to their table. They give you $20, and give me a thank you. That's gratitude for ya.
Next time you're in a restaurant really think about the service. Is the waitperson really great, or are they just mediocre? If they're mediocre but the food is really great, and you're just dying to part with more of your money, tip the god damn cook! He's the one doing a great job, which led to your good dining experience. Any moron could have refilled your drinks and walked the plates to your table.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 14:55:24 GMT -5
I'd assume that high end places in NYC that rely on a professional class of servers would pay higher wages than a place like Dennys where you can get by just fine with a transient work force, just like any other job field out there. Some pay more to get the cream of the crop, others are happy with a rotating door of minimum wage workers.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 14:56:32 GMT -5
I've known a few career waitresses. I'm not using that term to be sexist, it's just that every one I've known was female. For somebody with little or no job skills, waiting tables is probably the highest paying gig they're going to find. If you have a spouse that's working too, the combined pay is enough to raise kids on and whatnot. Kind of funny that you say this because all of the career servers I knew were men and they all made salaries in the $70-100k range. I don't think we're talking about the same position. The career servers I'm talking about work at places like Masa or Cipriani. They only had five or six tables a night but when each of your tables tips you some insane amount like $500/pop, yeah, you're doing quite well You can definitely make waiting tables a lucrative career but at these levels, it ain't an unskilled position anymore. You usually need to know quite a bit about wine and food and have years of serving experience in fine dining establishments.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 20, 2012 14:57:18 GMT -5
I never said we should. Just that it's not necessarily an 'easy' job, entry-level or not.
And I don't think all restaurant servers can necessarily be lumped together. Waiting tables at Denny's is a much different job from waiting tables at Ruth's Chris, which is a much different job from waiting tables at Masa. Denny's? Minimum wage is fair. But I doubt Le Bernardin's clientele are going to be very happy with that level of service.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 14:58:04 GMT -5
I'd assume that high end places in NYC that rely on a professional class of servers would pay higher wages than a place like Dennys where you can get by just fine with a transient work force, just like any other job field out there. Some pay more to get the cream of the crop, others are happy with a rotating door of minimum wage workers.
Which is why I said that the higher-end places would still do just fine. Taking away tips wouldn't really change things for those places much. But I think it would have a VERY bad effect on middle class chain restaurants that the transient workers you talked about gravitate toward - because they'd find something more lucrative to fund their transience. Currently, waiting tables is one of the best ways to make decent wages without needing much in the way of experience or skills.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 20, 2012 14:58:14 GMT -5
Firebird! Stop kicking my brain! Drama, you too
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 14:59:30 GMT -5
Personally I'd rather have someone fear losing their job than losing a couple of bucks if they decide to give crappy service.
Ah, but how bad would your service have to be in order for you to get fired? It doesn't have to be THAT bad to make your general dining experience pretty lousy. And a server would have to consistently get written up for exceptionally bad service before s/he was fired. A mediocre server who basically did the job but had no reason to hustle or be particularly nice to the customers could squeak by for a long time.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 15:00:52 GMT -5
But I think it would have a VERY bad effect on middle class chain restaurants that the transient workers you talked about gravitate toward Village Inn pays their servers slightly higher than minimum wage. I don't see their chain suffering any. A mediocre server who basically did the job but had no reason to hustle or be particularly nice to the customers could squeak by for a long timeBecause I've NEVER seen this in our current system. Oh wait, I have, tons of times. They get their minimum 10% they gotta claim and short of stealing or murdering someone they kept squeaking by just fine.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 20, 2012 15:01:47 GMT -5
I've known a few career waitresses. I'm not using that term to be sexist, it's just that every one I've known was female. For somebody with little or no job skills, waiting tables is probably the highest paying gig they're going to find. If you have a spouse that's working too, the combined pay is enough to raise kids on and whatnot. Kind of funny that you say this because all of the career servers I knew were men and they all made salaries in the $70-100k range. I don't think we're talking about the same position. The career servers I'm talking about work at places like Masa or Cipriani. They only had five or six tables a night but when each of your tables tips you some insane amount like $500/pop, yeah, you're doing quite well You can definitely make waiting tables a lucrative career but at these levels, it ain't an unskilled position anymore. You usually need to know quite a bit about wine and food and have years of serving experience in fine dining establishments. FB you keep saying this but it still isn't true. The fact that the place wants experienced waitstaff doesn't automatically make it a skilled vs unsilled job. It still isn't a skilled job IMO. If it is then every mom in the world has skills. ;D
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 15:02:15 GMT -5
::The popularity of waiting tables is in the fact that you can make more than minimum wage doing it (combined with flexible hours - that's usually an attractive perk as well). My position is that this would change, and waiting would be no better than washing dishes at McD's in terms of pay and job desirability if tipping went away. ::
I agree with all of this. And since they require the same relative level of skill, I don't see a problem with it. Waiting is popular because it's one of the higher paid unskilled jobs. Making it equal to other jobs of the same skill level doesn't mean food service armageddon. Those unskilled folks still need some job, and there are only so many to go around.
::But I still think service quality would suffer.::
What specifically do you think would suffer? I don't think most waitstaff are all that amazing at their job in the first place (like dark said, most aren't recommending wines, if they suggest a dish it's probably because someoen told them to and not because they have a great palate, they are there to take your order and bring your food to you). "most" waitstaff are doing it precisely why you said, it's the highest of the unskilled labor jobs. There's only so much that can go wrong between writing down an order and bringing it to you. Bad waitstaff would soon be gone as restaurants fire them as they lose business.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 15:02:32 GMT -5
Next time you're in a restaurant really think about the service. Is the waitperson really great, or are they just mediocre? If they're mediocre but the food is really great, and you're just dying to part with more of your money, tip the god damn cook! He's the one doing a great job, which led to your good dining experience. Any moron could have refilled your drinks and walked the plates to your table.
Every place I've ever worked, we had to tip the cooks, hostesses and bus staff part of our nightly wage. This was part of the reasoning.
I agree that cooking is a much harder job than serving.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 15:03:41 GMT -5
We're definitely not talking about the same people. I grew up in a small town. The swankiest restaurant in town probably averaged about $20 a plate for dinner. Ain't nobody making six figures waiting tables there. In truly upscale fine dining restaurants, which you only find in big cities to begin with, it's a whole different ball game.
The career servers I knew tended to work in locally owned places, and be married to a guy that works with his hands; construction, mechanics, etc. In a low cost area that combo will get you a middle class house, two cars, and whatnot. Waiting tables in lower end places is basically the skilled trades for women. If you're good at it you can make a decent living for your low cost area, and you don't need any formal schooling to get started.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 15:04:38 GMT -5
::But I think it would have a VERY bad effect on middle class chain restaurants that the transient workers you talked about gravitate toward - because they'd find something more lucrative to fund their transience.::
Like what? They're unskilled workers. We've already discussed that the only reason they're serving is because it's one of the best-paying unskilled gigs. What exacty are these hundreds of thousands of servers going to go do which is less lucrative than serving but more lucrative than minimum wage, and has hundreds of thousands of open positions which offer the flexible schedules so many of them need because they're in school? It's easy to say they'll just go get other jobs, but there have to be other jobs open with their same requirements.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jul 20, 2012 15:04:40 GMT -5
What amazes me is how is this we allowed to post 'fucked up' and 'JUDGMENTAL ASSHOLE'...but not allowed to talk about sexy underwear... ;D
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 20, 2012 15:07:02 GMT -5
I must have just gotten lucky with my servers because they all seem fine and they tell the truth. I like bacon more than I like sausage and this one server told me the sausage was better. She was RIGHT and I should have listened to her like DF did!
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 15:09:05 GMT -5
Mine are usually fine too. It's pretty rare that they're actually great though. That's my problem with all of them expecting a tip.
That kind of thing is part of their job, and doesn't in my opinion entitle them to more money. When I walk into Home Depot or whatever, I expect the guy in the paint department to know something about paint. I don't tip him when he recommends the easiest to clean interior trim paint or whatever. He's probably working for not much over minimum wage too, but he's expected to know at least a little about the product he's selling me.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 15:10:58 GMT -5
FB you keep saying this but it still isn't true. The fact that the place wants experienced waitstaff doesn't automatically make it a skilled vs unsilled job. It still isn't a skilled job IMO.I'm talking about really high end places. ~$200-500/head places. Those servers know their stuff, trust me. If your serving experience consists of 18 years at Denny's, you're not even getting an interview. "most" waitstaff are doing it precisely why you said, it's the highest of the unskilled labor jobs. There's only so much that can go wrong between writing down an order and bringing it to you. Bad waitstaff would soon be gone as restaurants fire them as they lose business. You're free to disagree but I think the tip does incentivize performance more than you're claiming it does. Most servers *do* hustle and they *do* try to be accurate and they *do* take the time to be friendly because in the back of their minds, they realize that the customer *does* control their tip. Drama may have been a great server because she has a great work ethic and that's awesome. I also would consider myself to have a high work ethic. But I worked harder as a waitress than I did as a McD's order-taker. Why? Because I got paid better when I did a better job as a waitress, and that wasn't true at McD's. Turn the average waiting job into a position that makes the same (low) wage no matter what, and you're not going to get people like me unless they have no other choice - in which case they'll leave quickly. You're going to be stuck with a ton of people who don't care about doing a better job because they don't have to care. Imagine getting the same amount of attention to detail and friendliness at a restaurant that you got from the last person who took your order at a drive-thru counter. That's basically the scenario I'd predict if we did away with tipping.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 15:12:22 GMT -5
The career servers I knew tended to work in locally owned places, and be married to a guy that works with his hands; construction, mechanics, etc. In a low cost area that combo will get you a middle class house, two cars, and whatnot. Waiting tables in lower end places is basically the skilled trades for women. If you're good at it you can make a decent living for your low cost area, and you don't need any formal schooling to get started.
Yeah, that's a different kind of career server than I was referring to in my earlier posts. And incidentally, the kind of career server you describe is the one I think would vanish if we got rid of tipping. Because she could find another (less physically intense) job that paid the same amount of money if we got rid of tipping.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 15:14:40 GMT -5
Turn the average waiting job into a position that makes the same (low) wage no matter what, and you're not going to get people like me unless they have no other choice - in which case they'll leave quickly
They do now! Short of your "professional wait staff" people at the high end places you talk about I don't recall any middle of the road chain having a huge long term consistent wait staff. It was a rotating door.
There were a few long timers but they are usually like Dark said moms working for some extra income or retirees looking to get out of the house and earn some cash.
Most were college students or the unemployed who booked it as soon as better things arrived.
I really don't see how making it a minimum wage job would make it any more transtional than it already is.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 15:15:18 GMT -5
I'd be totally fine with that. My order is almost never incorrect at a drive through. Even when one kid wants it with no lettuce or tomato, one kid wants barbecue sauce instead of ketchup/mustard on her burger, loop wants hers plain with mustard and extra cheese, and I just order off the menu. If we go into a little diner and order the same burgers, made the same way, I'd say they get it wrong at least 3x as often. Then they want me to pay an additional 20% on top of the already larger bill because they refilled our drinks and walked the food to our table. I'm not really seeing the value added.
Which most of the country never patronizes anyway. They're totally irrelevant, and will always pay their waitstaff more than min wage anyway.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 15:15:56 GMT -5
Because she could find another (less physically intense) job that paid the same amount of money if we got rid of tipping.
And that is a bad thing why?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 15:16:16 GMT -5
What exacty are these hundreds of thousands of servers going to go do which is less lucrative than serving but more lucrative than minimum wage, and has hundreds of thousands of open positions which offer the flexible schedules so many of them need because they're in school?
Off the top of my head, nothing comes to mind. But that doesn't mean such jobs (higher paid than minimum wage, lower paid than serving) don't exist or wouldn't rise up if we got rid of tipping.
More to the point, it also doesn't mean plenty of the current servers would go right along serving. My whole point is that while they might well do that, they probably wouldn't put as much effort into it anymore.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 15:16:54 GMT -5
::You're free to disagree but I think the tip does incentivize performance more than you're claiming it does. Most servers *do* hustle and they *do* try to be accurate and they *do* take the time to be friendly because in the back of their minds, they realize that the customer *does* control their tip. ::
And if you work for a flat fee, and you DON'T do these things, you get fired.
::Turn the average waiting job into a position that makes the same (low) wage no matter what, and you're not going to get people like me unless they have no other choice - in which case they'll leave quickly. You're going to be stuck with a ton of people who don't care about doing a better job because they don't have to care. ::
I agree, and the new goal will be "i need to keep my job" which will require them to be accurate at recording your order and bringing you your food, not unlike someone working at McDonald's.
::Imagine getting the same amount of attention to detail and friendliness at a restaurant that you got from the last person who took your order at a drive-thru counter. That's basically the scenario I'd predict if we did away with tipping. ::
Ok, so I'd order my food, I'd get my food, it would be what I ordered, I'd pay and get my change, and it would all be done quickly. That's basically what a server is doing. The only differences being that the server is bringing it to my table. Maybe that's the difference, I'd be happy to have a server who could do those things. I don't particularly care if you're friendly and smiling or not as long as you do your job correctly.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 15:17:20 GMT -5
That's fine. They usually aren't great servers anyway. They're efficient, and do their job adequately, but they're long past their days of hustling for tips, or being sparkly with customers. It's turned into the same boring grind day after day.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 15:19:36 GMT -5
Imagine getting the same amount of attention to detail and friendliness at a restaurant that you got from the last person who took your order at a drive-thru counter.
Pretty great actually. I used to shoot the breeze with the midnight shifter when I'd get off from serving.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 15:19:43 GMT -5
::My whole point is that while they might well do that, they probably wouldn't put as much effort into it anymore. ::
What effort though? They won't kiss my ass as much? I'm ok with that. I just want you to take my order, bring it to me when it's ready, and do the payment transaction. I don't see it as a negative to get rid of all the extra actions most servers do to try to convince you to give them a bigger tip.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 15:20:08 GMT -5
I'm not really seeing the value added.
That's because you don't care about the quality of service you receive at a restaurant. Plenty of people, myself included, do care.
Which most of the country never patronizes anyway. They're totally irrelevant, and will always pay their waitstaff more than min wage anyway.
I wasn't suggesting they were relevant to the tipping discussion - I've said a bunch of times now that they're NOT relevant to the tipping discussion. I was just responding to 973beachbum when she said that waiting was an unskilled position at any level. That's not true.
And that is a bad thing why?
It's only a bad thing if you like going out to eat and having a decent server experience when you do. If you don't eat out much, this would be basically irrelevant.
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