Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:44:49 GMT -5
Totally disagree with number 2. At some point every kid needs to learn to be away from their parents without totally freaking out. We can argue about what age it should happen, but if you have a toddler that can't be put down, you bet your ass you should let them cry it out even if it takes hours and hours. That's not bad parenting at all.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:45:17 GMT -5
Terrible parent is interesting. Which is worse, treating your kids harshly a couple times to encourage/discourage certain behavior or raising an entitled brat? Honest question. Which one makes the parents terrible?
What makes a parent terrible and what distinguishes "harsh treatment" from abuse are also different questions.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:46:28 GMT -5
Oh, now we're terrible parents and abuse our kids. Nice.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:47:49 GMT -5
Totally disagree with number 2. At some point every kid needs to learn to be away from their parents without totally freaking out. We can argue about what age it should happen, but if you have a toddler that can't be put down, you bet your ass you should let them cry it out even if it takes hours and hours. That's not bad parenting at all.
I said baby, and I meant under one year old - but that's another thing that changes the equation significantly. How old is too old? How young is too young?
I think at this point you're deliberately sidestepping the point. I'm saying that your claim that ANY healthy child can learn to CIO is illegitimate because for some kids it might take unreasonable measures to teach them and surely you wouldn't argue that parents take unreasonable measures against an infant.
But you're responding to minutiae, so I'm done here.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:48:08 GMT -5
Oh, now we're terrible parents and abuse our kids. Nice.
Um, where did I say that? I said nothing about you. If you're talking about where I said "What makes a parent terrible and what distinguishes 'harsh treatment' from abuse are also different questions," that was a completely general statement. I wasn't remarking on or judging any specific behavior.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:49:56 GMT -5
I really don't see what's so unreasonable about leaving a 3-6 month old in a safe place to cry for a couple hours if that's what it takes. I never said drop them off with the local sex offender, lock them in the back yard, or whatever. They're in their crib crying. They're fine.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 18, 2012 18:51:19 GMT -5
I don't think an infant of that age would cry for 2 hours unless something was very wrong.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 18:51:46 GMT -5
Did she say that? Why does anyone - short of the baby torturers - have to be a "terrible parent"? Dark, why did you even bring that up?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:52:06 GMT -5
Correct, you made a blanket statement that any parent who would do what I'm advocating is a terrible parent. What's that. A blanket statement from the all blanket statements are false because we're all special unique snowflakes crowd.... *gasp* Say it ain't so. I have left my kid in their crib to cry for hours at a time. I'd do it again under certain circumstances.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:53:01 GMT -5
I really don't see what's so unreasonable about leaving a 3-6 month old in a safe place to cry for a couple hours if that's what it takes.
But a lot of people WOULD find that unreasonable, just as most of us can (hopefully) agree that FIVE hours is unreasonable for a 3-6 month old. So where do you draw the line? At what point do you start judging a parent for NOT taking measures that THEY feel are unreasonable to produce a result you think is important?
That's the point, you really can't make a statement like "every healthy infant can be taught to cry it out" if, in order for that to be a true statement, some kids would need to be treated in a manner that their parents found unreasonable. Because then the argument becomes "you should be willing to treat your child in a way you find unreasonable in order to prove MY theory."
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:54:07 GMT -5
Correct, you made a blanket statement that any parent who would do what I'm advocating is a terrible parent.
Oh Jesus. I'm done here.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:55:12 GMT -5
I didn't.
FB
FB
She pretty blatantly said that anyone who would let an infant cry it out is a terrible/bad parent.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:57:40 GMT -5
She pretty blatantly said that anyone who would let an infant cry it out is a terrible/bad parent.
She also prefaced the whole thing with "FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT." Meaning, she doesn't necessarily think this. She was trying to make a point.
And she also said A NUMBER OF TIMES NOW that she doesn't know or care whether Dark's initial assertion that any kid can learn to do this is true or not. Meaning, she is NOT arguing for one side or the other.
But, you know, whatevs.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 18:58:06 GMT -5
Oops, my bad. I was reading the toddler/SUV post. This whole argument has me going in circles, though.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 19:01:31 GMT -5
Actually you didn't. Below is the entirety of post 431:
First paragrpah, if you let a kid cry it out you're not a good parent. Second paragraph, if you let a kid cry it out you're a terrible parent.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 19:03:16 GMT -5
No. Just that those of us who are (just me really) are bad/terrible parents. Nice.
But I'm the judgmental asshole one.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 19:05:22 GMT -5
Actually you didn't. Below is the entirety of post 431: First paragrpah, if you let a kid cry it out you're not a good parent. Second paragraph, if you let a kid cry it out you're a terrible parent. Actually (I guess I'm not done after all because I have to keep clarifying this) I didn't even MENTION crying it out in that post. I was speaking in general terms. Then I offered CIO as a specific example and I said "let's say we agreed to these terms beforehand, then..." which is NOT the same thing as saying that I think those terms are true. ETA: Okay, I mentioned CIO and I mentioned green beans but I didn't actually say "these extreme measures make you a bad parent." I did that in the NEXT post, and first I said "let's say we all agreed that these particular extreme measures made you a bad parent."
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 18, 2012 19:09:49 GMT -5
I've known several. Or perhaps that's too strong a word. I've met three personally. By "hours at a time", I mean "at least 90 minutes". I can't comment on their exact ages, but all three were toddlers. Two of the three situations had mom and dad put kiddies to bed (at their normal bedtimes) during house parties. Kiddies didn't like that. Unhappy kiddies scream, and they can easily do so for 120 minutes virtually uninterrupted. At least, these ones could. Anyway, didn't mean to interrupt the Dark v. Phoenix fight to the death. Carry on. Carry on.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 19:10:20 GMT -5
Yeah, your beginning modifier came after the post where you said a parent who lets their kid cry it out is terrible. You can't put a modifier before a statement after you make it. Unless you use a drastically different definition of the word before than the rest of the English speaking world.
ETA - Whatever dictionary you got that definition from would be worth big bucks to political candidates. They'd give you millions to be able to put modifiers before their gaffes after they've made them. You'd never have to work again, and could spend all day everyday holding your baby.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 19:10:27 GMT -5
No. Just that those of us who are (just me really) are bad/terrible parents. Nice. But I'm the judgmental asshole one. If ANYTHING, I was asserting that parents who were to actually let their babies under a year old CIO for five hours straight were bad parents. And you said you never did that. You said that you only let them CIO for 10-15 minutes tops. So how exactly am I saying that YOU are a bad/terrible parent, EVEN IF I was saying that parents who let babies CIO were terrible parents (which I wasn't)?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 19:13:28 GMT -5
I said it usually took 10-15 minutes tops. I would have happily left them in there until they were old enough to clothe and feed themselves if that's what it took.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 19:13:58 GMT -5
This is a stupid argument. Last post.
1) Sorry if I haven't made this clear enough even though I've said it at least five times now but I DO NOT HAVE A POSITION on CIO. I certainly don't think parents who do it are bad or terrible. If I gave that impression, it was wrong and DOES NOT reflect what I truly think. Because I don't really have a firm opinion on this subject either way.
2) My WHOLE ENTIRE POINT was that if you suggest that something is possible for every child, but it's only possible for some children through measures that some parents would find disturbing or upsetting, then it's not fair to call it bad parenting if they're not willing to go to those lengths to achieve something that may or may not be TECHNICALLY possible for every child. That was my whole entire point in its whole entirety.
3) Parents who DO go to measures that other parents find disturbing or upsetting to achieve some desired result are NOT NECESSARILY BAD PARENTS (see #1).
THE END.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 19:15:12 GMT -5
Welcome to the internet, you must be new here.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 19:16:59 GMT -5
Yeah well, if I'm going to waste time arguing on the internet, I'd prefer to argue about something on which I actually hold a position. We've been arguing over something I don't even care about for at least an hour. So not worth it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 19:21:51 GMT -5
Sorry. I'll find something better for tomorrow. How do you feel about organic diets versus pumping babies/toddlers full of chemicals, pesticides, and god knows what else?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 19:22:47 GMT -5
From now on, I have no opinions whatsoever on anything. Wouldn't life be easier that way?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 19:23:07 GMT -5
Or should we avoid the kid thing for a day. It's come up a lot lately. I know you're preggo and all, so it's understandable, but we can still argue about adult stuff if you want.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 19:24:24 GMT -5
"Adult" stuff, you say?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 19:26:05 GMT -5
Whoa now. No quote marks, you'll get the EE crew all riled up and the thread will get locked down in under 30 minutes.
Seriously, you make one little comment about having to jiggle a dongle to get something to work right, and practically before you can hit post it gets out of hand.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 19:29:07 GMT -5
But calling each other judgmental assholes is all good
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