Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 17:42:25 GMT -5
Sorta. I was actually responding to somebody about how society blames the mother for everything, and in my response I tried to give one example where sometimes it really is the mother's fault. I went with something that's fairly common so people could relate, but that isn't all that controversial. Sometimes I forget the militant mom brigade on this board though, so obviously nothing is ever the mother's fault. Even stuff that is. My bad.
Because, I don't think you can look at ANY childrearing problem and say "Yeah, that's usually Mom's fault." Any more than you can reasonably say, "Yeah, that's usually Dad's fault." Maybe I'm wrong, I don't have kids yet.
But I think that bad parenting is bad parenting, and it's not gender-specific. I mean, I'm sure more of one gender than the other shake babies (only because I'm assuming it's not EXACTLY 50-50) but that doesn't make it okay to say "society blames men for babyshaking because it's usually the man's fault."
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 17:43:24 GMT -5
Now who's reinterpreting You can hold a crying baby as much as you want.. but if you put one down and it doesn't have any of those three issues, it will eventually stop crying. That's just it, I wasn't reinterpreting, I was legitimately asking a follow-up question to make sure I understood you correctly. You said that a kid SHOULD be left to cry it out unless they were having one of the above problems, and I wondered if you meant that you should put a kid down if it wasn't having one of those problems. As it happens, that's not what you meant. I misunderstood. And I'm glad you didn't mean what I thought you meant. (See how easy that was, Thyme?)
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 17:43:41 GMT -5
Fathers do all the same stuff wrong that mothers do. Except breast feed. Not that they wouldn't fuck that up too, just that they lack the proper equipment.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 18, 2012 17:43:53 GMT -5
There are only three times a baby should not be left to 'cry it out' - 1) Needs feeding, 2) Needs changing, 3) Medical issue. The rest of the time, the kid will survive and *gasp* won't even remember anything anyway Now I'm seriously asking for clarification. Are you saying you should never hold a crying baby unless it's got one of those problems - and assuming that it does have one of those problems, you should put it down immediately once it's fixed? I am going to assume she means it is ok to not answer the baby if it isn't one of those problems, not that you shouldn't. But I still disagree whole-heartedly. Babies absolutely need touch & bonding. Those that don't get it suffer. They've also shown that babies that are left to "just get over it" suffer from high levels of stress as a result. And yes, infants do eventually stop crying. Not because they feel better or self-soothed, but because they have given up on getting a response - something I find very depressing. Sure, they might turn out fine either way. But, why the hell would you want your infant to suffer when being held helps to calm them?
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jul 18, 2012 17:45:24 GMT -5
Damn, I must have missed that edition of infant-to-adult dictionary that told me EXACTLY when my kid was crying just bc or bc he "needed" something Lena Just fed recently and consumed enough that your boobs don't hurt or the bottle emptied? Not hungry Diaper smell? Change it. The medical issue is, granted, the hardest one to 'diagnose'. But there are signs.. if it hasn't pooped in hours, probably constipated. If it hasn't burped, probably gassy. Warm to touch? Might have a fever - check for other symptoms, give baby tylenol and take to doctor if it persists. Slobbering like mad? Teething, give the kid something cold to chew on. Snot filled nose? Cold, try baby tylenol and a snot sucker. Colic? Try cutting milk out of your diet if you're breastfeeding. Switch formulas if you're not (although if you don't breastfeed you're a horrible parent and dooming your child to a life of misery and a weakened immune system ).
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 17:45:27 GMT -5
Those kids need to learn that the world ain't gonna coddle em. Best to start em young! You attachment-parenters are the downfall of society
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 17:45:59 GMT -5
Yes, but not 24/7. Some alone time is healthy.
Kids who are breast fed into their teens find that calming too, I don't see anyone getting in line for that freak show.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 17:46:17 GMT -5
And just to add my own opinion to this, I don't think "he'll eventually stop crying" is a good reason not to make your kiddo feel better if he really does just want to be held. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be held. Sometimes adults just want to be held. And sure, they'll stop crying eventually even if they're not, but that doesn't mean it's a nice thing to do to let your kid keep crying until they stop.
I mean, eventually they'd stop just because they were exhausted and passed out. That doesn't mean they feel any better, or that they wouldn't have stopped crying sooner if you'd been holding them.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 17:47:18 GMT -5
Now who's taking things to the extreme?
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jul 18, 2012 17:47:32 GMT -5
Now I'm seriously asking for clarification. Are you saying you should never hold a crying baby unless it's got one of those problems - and assuming that it does have one of those problems, you should put it down immediately once it's fixed? I am going to assume she means it is ok to not answer the baby if it isn't one of those problems, not that you shouldn't. But I still disagree whole-heartedly. Babies absolutely need touch & bonding. Those that don't get it suffer. They've also shown that babies that are left to "just get over it" suffer from high levels of stress as a result. And yes, infants do eventually stop crying. Not because they feel better or self-soothed, but because they have given up on getting a response - something I find very depressing. Sure, they might turn out fine either way. But, why the hell would you want your infant to suffer when being held helps to calm them? Here's the thing.. I didn't once say, "Don't hold your child." That would be cruel and pointless. But parents tend to hold babies, tend to babies, hang out with babies, 20 out of 24 hours.. that other 4 hours they can cry it out
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 17:49:54 GMT -5
Just trying to keep with the flow of the thread. Since this particular tangent started about a comment I made with regards to parents who hold their kids 24/7 and now we're talking about people who never hold their kids ever and are bad parents.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 18, 2012 17:51:08 GMT -5
Kids who are breast fed into their teens find that calming too, I don't see anyone getting in line for that freak show. Yes, but we aren't talking about teens (at least I'm not). I let my kids cry themselves out even now because they are old enough I can communicate with them beyond just holding them. I am talking about infants. Infants that have no way to communicate beyond crying when something is wrong. Where I can't communicate beyond holding them & trying to soothe them. I just don't get intentionally letting my kid down when they don't ask for much & are so helpless at that young of an age.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 17:51:13 GMT -5
Here's the thing.. I didn't once say, "Don't hold your child." That would be cruel and pointless. But parents tend to hold babies, tend to babies, hang out with babies, 20 out of 24 hours.. that other 4 hours they can cry it out No, you didn't. But you did say "There are only three times a baby should not be left to 'cry it out.'" That's a direct quote. When I read that, I read "if your baby is not suffering from one of these three things, you shouldn't pick them up when they cry." Meaning, if you think your kid is just crying because they want some comfort, you should not pick them up because that wasn't on your list of three reasons. I'm glad that's not what you meant, but that's how it sounded to me and that's why I asked a follow up question.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 18, 2012 17:52:33 GMT -5
Because new parent and reasonable never belong in the same sentence. Why do you think your pediatrician doesn't believe a word you say during your early childhood checkup visits? He's not rude enough to call you liar to your face, but when you say the breastfeeding just isn't working and you've tried everything, he doesn't tell you to stick with it because there are no other options, it's because when he hears "I've tried everything" he's thinking "You tried a couple times, don't really know what you're doing anyway, and need to give it some actual time". Well my friend isn't a new parent as this is baby number two. She did checks every ten minutes essentially all night long for 3 nights straight with a 4 month old. I did checks every 5 minutes with 3 month old using a stopwatch to make sure it was the full 5 min. On my drive home I realized I hope you keep your mouth shut in 20 years when your DD have kids. Your attitude when send me over the edge if you were my dad. Anyway, my DS is playing and I'm going to join him.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 17:53:59 GMT -5
Just so we're all clear. I held my kids plenty. Loop held the kids plenty. We snuggled, we cuddled, we played, we fed, we burped, etc., etc. We didn't hold/strap the kids to our bodies 24/7. I think anyone who does is a nutter. Sometimes, (<--- this word means once in a while not all the time in case you didn't know) the kids were put on the floor, or in a crib, and had to learn to be OK with that. Shocking right?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 17:56:01 GMT -5
Just so we're all clear. I held my kids plenty. Loop held the kids plenty. We snuggled, we cuddled, we played, we fed, we burped, etc., etc. We didn't hold/strap the kids to our bodies 24/7. I think anyone who does is a nutter. Sometimes, (<--- this word means once in a while not all the time in case you didn't know) the kids were put on the floor, or in a crib, and had to learn to be OK with that. Shocking right?
Okay, but you're suggesting that it's not possible for a parent who has a kid with separation anxiety and can't stand not being held by someone might have done it the same way as you, right?
^^This is also a follow up question to clarify what you meant. That is what I think you are suggesting.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 18, 2012 17:56:39 GMT -5
Just trying to keep with the flow of the thread. Since this particular tangent started about a comment I made with regards to parents who hold their kids 24/7 and now we're talking about people who never hold their kids ever and are bad parents. Which really you started by suggesting letting a kid cry it out even if it takes 5 hours at a time. Had you said something remotely reasonable it wouldn't have been such an argument.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jul 18, 2012 17:56:40 GMT -5
Believe it or not, babies don't really cry randomly. There's almost always a cause. It isn't usually, "I just want to be held." You can mimic the 'being held' feeling just by wrapping them up in a swaddling cloth tightly enough. Loud noises, temperature, illness, not breastfed, stinky diaper, hungry, gassy, constipated, rash... that's what sets a baby off.
They don't learn the, "If I'm crying my parents will comfort me and hold me forever and ever" tactic until YOU reinforce it.
Which is part of the reason I had a baby in bed with me for almost 2 years and my husband slept on the couch. We had to fix all our mistakes with number two.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 17:56:52 GMT -5
I just hope I actually have a 20 year wait before my daughters are making babies. 30 and 31 are good ages for the first kids.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 17:57:46 GMT -5
FB, in the beginning as newborns, the parental response to the crying (picking up and holding) creates the bonding/attachment that is absolutely crucial. I've never had newborns, but I would not let a newborn cry it out. As they get older and there are no other outstanding issues, crying it out can and does work. I know holding a newborn is crucial But since you brought it up, when is a baby actually considered "not a newborn anymore"? Is it different for every baby or is there an actual age?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 17:58:59 GMT -5
I never suggested doing that. I really obnoxiously asked what would happen if you did, to try and get the "but some babies are just different" people to realize that the argument in this case is a little weird since all babies would cry themselves into an exhausted near coma in way under 5 hours. I used something "extreme" to point out the ridiculousness of the counter argument. I didn't think you whackadoodles would actually take it literally.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jul 18, 2012 17:59:42 GMT -5
Just trying to keep with the flow of the thread. Since this particular tangent started about a comment I made with regards to parents who hold their kids 24/7 and now we're talking about people who never hold their kids ever and are bad parents. Which really you started by suggesting letting a kid cry it out even if it takes 5 hours at a time. Had you said something remotely reasonable it wouldn't have been such an argument. To be honest.. if your baby is crying for 5 hours at a time, you did something wrong (or someone else did something wrong, which is often the case with adoptions). I'd guess you didn't breastfeed, personally. (this 'you' is in general)
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 18, 2012 17:59:46 GMT -5
Shocking? Not so much, but my ex-pediatrician suggested not to do that for the first 3 months. His advice was - if baby cries, pick him up, bc if infant that age is crying, they DO need something. Just bc you might not understand what it is, doesn't make it non-existent
Lena
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:00:44 GMT -5
I really obnoxiously asked what would happen if you did, to try and get the "but some babies are just different" people to realize that the argument in this case is a little weird since all babies would cry themselves into an exhausted near coma in way under 5 hours.
It's a silly argument, though, to say that they "would" stop crying in way under five hours when only a sociopath could ever stand to test that theory with their baby, and use this to support the idea that all babies can learn to cry it out if you leave them alone long enough.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 18, 2012 18:02:07 GMT -5
Believe it or not, babies don't really cry randomly. There's almost always a cause. It isn't usually, "I just want to be held." You can mimic the 'being held' feeling just by wrapping them up in a swaddling cloth tightly enough. Loud noises, temperature, illness, not breastfed, stinky diaper, hungry, gassy, constipated, rash... that's what sets a baby off. They don't learn the, "If I'm crying my parents will comfort me and hold me forever and ever" tactic until YOU reinforce it. I agree with the first part. Even colicky babies cry for a reason, we often just don't understand the reason. The second part I think comes with age. I don't think you need to worry about reinforcing the need for being held with a newborn. I don't think you can hold a newborn too much. There is an age where you have to start watching what behavior you do reinforce because it can get out of control quick. I don't at what age that is, but I certainly wouldn't even start worrying about it until somewhere around 3-6 months.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:02:40 GMT -5
Crying or not if you leave a baby in one spot for five hours they're going to be asleep way before the timer is up. Boredom if nothing else.
And I have tested the theory with my own kids, 10-15 minutes tops. And that's with them being cranky or crying to start.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jul 18, 2012 18:02:43 GMT -5
I really obnoxiously asked what would happen if you did, to try and get the "but some babies are just different" people to realize that the argument in this case is a little weird since all babies would cry themselves into an exhausted near coma in way under 5 hours.It's a silly argument, though, to say that they "would" stop crying in way under five hours when only a sociopath could ever stand to test that theory with their baby, and use this to support the idea that all babies can learn to cry it out if you leave them alone long enough. I'd be willing to bet you that the experiment has been done though!
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 18, 2012 18:02:46 GMT -5
I never suggested doing that. I really obnoxiously asked what would happen if you did, to try and get the "but some babies are just different" people to realize that the argument in this case is a little weird since all babies would cry themselves into an exhausted near coma in way under 5 hours. I used something "extreme" to point out the ridiculousness of the counter argument. I didn't think you whackadoodles would actually take it literally. Have you not been reading this thread?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:03:06 GMT -5
Oh hell... I have no idea when they're not considered a newborn anymore... maybe when they lose the new car smell? I was thinking three months but that's only because the littlest onesies I see say "0-3 months" on them.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:04:54 GMT -5
And I have tested the theory with my own kids, 10-15 minutes tops.
Yeah but 10-15 minutes is very different from 5 hours though. Either I'm fundamentally misunderstanding you* or you're not making sense.
*I think what you're saying is that any baby learns to cry it out if you leave them alone for 10-15 minute periods. And that if it takes longer for them to cry it out, you should let them keep crying it out because it will happen eventually. And that this is true for every baby.
Feel free to correct me if I have any of that wrong.
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