Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jul 18, 2012 18:04:57 GMT -5
Crying or not if you leave a baby in one spot for five hours they're going to be asleep way before the timer is up. Boredom if nothing else. And I have tested the theory with my own kids, 10-15 minutes tops. And that's with them being cranky or crying to start. We've had ours cry for almost two hours before, but that's because they were sick and after you do everything you're supposed to do and you've been awake for 20 hours already, you kinda hit a point where you have to say, "Dude, shut up!" throw a pillow over your head and crash.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:05:06 GMT -5
And I think that if you spend the first 3-6 months holding the kid 24/7 you're going to have a hell of a time ever putting the kid down at the 3 or 6 month mark.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:06:11 GMT -5
And I'm saying that it is true, they just weren't left long enough.
ETA - Or they have a medical condition. I don't need one of you telling me about a kid born 7 months early, with half a heart, and some weird spinal deformation that never shuts up. Yeah we get it, if life shits on you the normal rules don't apply.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:07:12 GMT -5
That bolded word is important. If you throw a pillow over their head CPS gets pissy.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jul 18, 2012 18:07:14 GMT -5
And I have tested the theory with my own kids, 10-15 minutes tops. Yeah but 10-15 minutes is very different from 5 hours though. Either I'm fundamentally misunderstanding you* or you're not making sense. *I think what you're saying is that any baby learns to cry it out if you leave them alone for 10-15 minute periods. And that if it takes longer for them to cry it out, you should let them keep crying it out because it will happen eventually. From what I've heard, this is simply not true for every baby because some babies have medical conditions or parents who don't know how to set their kids down. (fixed it for you). Healthy, not-neglected, but not smothered, fed, changed, burped babies will shut up quick enough.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 18, 2012 18:07:27 GMT -5
Oh hell... I have no idea when they're not considered a newborn anymore... maybe when they lose the new car smell? I was thinking three months but that's only because the littlest onesies I see say "0-3 months" on them. Have you seen the preemie onsies or footies? OMG they are so adorable. It makes me feel bad that they are cute outfits though because I do feel bad for Moms with really small/preemie babies because that has to be a scary experience. But the outfits are so freaking cute & tiny.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:08:25 GMT -5
Reread my quote, Dark. I took that part out because I'm not actually trying to argue - I've had enough arguing. I'm trying to make sense of what you've said.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:10:40 GMT -5
And I'm saying that it is true, they just weren't left long enough.
The thing is, if it only took your kids 10-15 minutes to stop crying when they weren't being held, then you're not really in a position to comment on how long it takes ALL kids to stop crying when they're not being held.
In other words, it's easy for you to say that you *should* let a kid cry it out "as long as it takes" if that was only 15 minutes for you. Almost anyone could leave a kid alone for 15 minutes. But (I *think*) you're saying that parents need to let their kids keep crying even LONGER than that if necessary, until they learn to deal with it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 18, 2012 18:11:22 GMT -5
Crying or not if you leave a baby in one spot for five hours they're going to be asleep way before the timer is up. Boredom if nothing else. And I have tested the theory with my own kids, 10-15 minutes tops. And that's with them being cranky or crying to start. We've had ours cry for almost two hours before, but that's because they were sick and after you do everything you're supposed to do and you've been awake for 20 hours already, you kinda hit a point where you have to say, "Dude, shut up!" throw a pillow over your head and crash. And I get that. I really do, I ran into that with DS at times. You can't always respond when your kid is crying. However, I think that is far different from you shouldn't respond if you kid is crying - just let them cry it out, which is how some of these comments are coming across.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:14:00 GMT -5
Really? I didn't think it was that complicated.
If you leave a kid to cry it out long enough they'll eventually learn. That's basically it. The vast majority of the time the fussiness and crying will last around 10-15 minutes. It may take longer, especially if the kid in question is several months old and has never been left on their own at all, which is your fault as a parent (regardless of plumbing) for letting them get to that point.
With the obvious exception of medical conditions and stuff. If the kid is in pain 24/7 they obviously aren't going to stop crying whether you hold them or not.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:16:43 GMT -5
If you leave a kid to cry it out long enough they'll eventually learn. That's basically it.
And I accept that it was that way with your kids. The part I don't get is how you can possibly say that it is that way for all healthy kids just because it was true for yours.
You seem to be saying that if you have a healthy child who can't stand not being held, then you cannot possibly have tried letting them cry it out (ergo you screwed up as a parent). But maybe they DID try crying it out at LEAST as long as you let YOUR kids cry it out, and it still didn't work. Maybe they tried CIO for even LONGER than you tried it with your kids and it still didn't work.
I don't understand the blanket statement that this cannot possibly be true if someone has a clingy baby. Which is what I think you are asserting.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 18:16:49 GMT -5
I'd have to assume - none of us being pediatricians or child psychologists or Duggars or daycare workers, as far as I know - any blanket statement regarding babies or kids is probably incorrect. Even the ones that seem ridiculous. I don't think having 1 kid or 3 kids or 10 kids really qualifies you to say "Everyone knows all babies _______." So, I dunno, maybe cutting the blanket statements would add a little more credence to the discourse here.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:18:25 GMT -5
I've got brothers that are years younger than me, I have cousins much younger than me, I have nieces and nephews. I lived in the same house with my sister when her two were born. I was in the hospital room during delivery, and under the same roof from the day they came home.
I have yet to meet a kid that can cry for hours at a time unless there's something actually wrong with them. Like the one colicky nephew. All the others cry it out in fairly short periods of time.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:20:51 GMT -5
It's kind of like if I said "All kids can learn to eat green beans even if they don't like them, and I know this because I gave my kid green beans THREE TIMES before he actually ate them but after that he ate them just fine. If your kid won't eat green beans, then that means you cannot possibly have tried feeding them to him three times or more. And maybe sometimes it takes even more than three times before your kid will eat them, but eventually he'll learn and if he didn't learn, that means you didn't try."
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:22:09 GMT -5
When they find the gene for clingy babyness, then the parents can feel vindicated that they did everything right and just got unlucky. Until they do I'm sticking with my assertion that they probably held the kid way too often and that's why they freak when they're left alone. Kay?
Note, I'm not asking you to agree with me. Just asking you to recognize that I'm not budging from that stance, so further argument is kinda pointless.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:23:13 GMT -5
I have yet to meet a kid that can cry for hours at a time unless there's something actually wrong with them. Like the one colicky nephew. All the others cry it out in fairly short periods of time.
Okay, so you know a lot of kids but that doesn't make you an authority on every [healthy] kid - certainly your sample size is not big enough to make what you admitted was a blanket statement like the one you made. So why are you surprised when people get upset because you made a blanket statement that may not always be true?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 18:24:22 GMT -5
Because everyone knows Dark knows everything about everything
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:24:56 GMT -5
Which would be true. You ever seen a starving person that was a picky eater?
Give the kid a plate of green beans for breakfast, one for snack, one for lunch, one for snack, and one for dinner. Do it everyday. No other food. Sooner or later the kid will decide that green beans really aren't that bad.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:25:32 GMT -5
When they find the gene for clingy babyness, then the parents can feel vindicated that they did everything right and just got unlucky. Until they do I'm sticking with my assertion that they probably held the kid way too often and that's why they freak when they're left alone. Kay?
Note, I'm not asking you to agree with me. Just asking you to recognize that I'm not budging from that stance, so further argument is kinda pointless. For the third or fourth time, I. Am. Not. Arguing. With. You. About. This. I have no idea if your "stance" is true or not. I really don't care.
I'm questioning your ability to hand down blanket statements about all healthy kids that are always true.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 18:26:11 GMT -5
Baby anorexics?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 18:27:53 GMT -5
why are you all continuing to let Dark get to you?!?! You know he's being an asshole on purpose, right?!?!?!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:28:18 GMT -5
Give the kid a plate of green beans for breakfast, one for snack, one for lunch, one for snack, and one for dinner. Do it everyday. No other food. Sooner or later the kid will decide that green beans really aren't that bad.
And just as with the "if you let the kid cry it out for five hours a day, he'll learn" remark, suggesting a cruel experiment like this (that you would never do yourself) to prove that all kids will eat green beans (which you're basing on the fact that YOUR kid ate green beans) is ridiculous.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:29:01 GMT -5
why are you all continuing to let Dark get to you?!?! You know he's being an asshole on purpose, right?!?!?! I'm not letting him get to me anymore. I'm arguing his logic.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:29:44 GMT -5
Actually neither of my kids like green beans much, which obviously disproves your entire point. Next.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:32:02 GMT -5
Oh, and something can be both ridiculous and true. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Would it be cruel to feed your kid nothing but green beans, for an entire week if that's what it took, just to get them to eat green beans? Sure. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:34:58 GMT -5
Oh, and something can be both ridiculous and true. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Would it be cruel to feed your kid nothing but green beans, for an entire week if that's what it took, just to get them to eat green beans? Sure. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work.
Yuh-huh, but suggesting that something is true for every kid if you go to extreme enough measures while knowing full well that no good parent would ever go to such extreme measures is a false equivalence.
If you take away those extreme measures, you have to admit that it is *not* possible for every kid to learn to eat green beans, and it is *not* possible for every kid to learn to cry it out, unless you want to resort to being a terrible parent.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 18, 2012 18:36:44 GMT -5
I don't know about you guys but when my pediatrician said to let DS "cry it out" well, that sound is designed to make you respond! It almost killed me. DS had to cry himself to sleep in order to settle down and sleep. Plus, be firmly swaddled. I can't imagine being able to ignore that sound. Makes my spine shrivel.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:36:53 GMT -5
Terrible parent is interesting. Which is worse, treating your kids harshly a couple times to encourage/discourage certain behavior or raising an entitled brat? Honest question. Which one makes the parents terrible?
Hitting a kid is wrong right. Totally crosses the line and is way too extreme. But letting your toddler get away with darting away from you as a game can lead to them running in front of a car in a parking lot or street. Which parent is terrible, the one who smacks their kid on the ass once the first time they dart away, or the one who says "well all kids are different and mine darts away and there's nothing you can do about it", and then watches their toddler get crushed by an SUV pulling out of a Walmart parking space?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 18:38:32 GMT -5
OK, but that doesn't make the statement every single kid capable of eating solid food can learn to eat green beans false. It might take extreme measures, but it's doable.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 18:42:08 GMT -5
In other words, let's agree for the sake of argument that 1) it's completely true that kids will eventually stop crying if you leave them alone for up to five hours, but there's no guarantee they would learn before that and 2) no good parent would ever leave their <1 year old baby alone for five hours to cry even if something wasn't clearly wrong with them.
So then by saying "every kid can learn to cry it out if you leave them alone for long enough (max of five hours) and every parent should teach their kid to cry it out," you are suggesting that in order to teach your kid to cry it out, they should be willing to do something that only a bad parent would do. If necessary, they ought to be willing to leave their kid alone to cry for five hours because after that they'll learn. By doing something only a bad parent would do, they will prove your point that it is possible to produce the desired result in ANY child.
However, if you DON'T think parents should go to such extreme measures to produce the desired result, then you are effectively admitting that NOT every child can be taught to cry it out. Because you are saying that it cannot always be done in a reasonable amount of time.
And then the game becomes "what's a reasonable amount of time" which is a different question.
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