Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 22, 2012 13:22:51 GMT -5
Neither are 16-year-olds... yet we let them operate potentially deadly pieces of machinery. I don't think there's a firm dividing line that applies to every kid (which is EXACTLY why there are rarely specific age guidelines in the neglect laws). Some 6-year-olds can handle that level of responsibility. Some 14- or 15-year-olds probably can't. It really depends on the kid. And Swamp knows hers better than we do. A 16 year old generally is capable of identifying a "stranger". A 6 year old rarely is capable of identifying a "stranger". I don't see how a 16 year old being able to obtain a driver's license has much to do with a 6 year old being asked to walk to the sitter's unsupervised after school, and be responsible for his little sister to boot. Certainly Swamp knows her kids better than we do.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 22, 2012 13:29:17 GMT -5
I was only making the comparison because you said a 6yo can't developmentally think like an adult. To my knowledge, the only people able to developmentally think like adults are... adults. But we let kids start working, driving, and doing all sorts of other things before their brains have fully developed. I don't think you can draw a firm line and say that kids under age X aren't capable of doing something, but kids over age X are. Really? I must know some advanced 6yos. I don't have kids, but even my 2yo nephew knows the difference between family members he's met a few times vs. people he's never seen before...
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 22, 2012 13:31:11 GMT -5
Neither are 16-year-olds... yet we let them operate potentially deadly pieces of machinery. I don't think there's a firm dividing line that applies to every kid (which is EXACTLY why there are rarely specific age guidelines in the neglect laws). Some 6-year-olds can handle that level of responsibility. Some 14- or 15-year-olds probably can't. It really depends on the kid. And Swamp knows hers better than we do. A 16 year old generally is capable of identifying a "stranger". A 6 year old rarely is capable of identifying a "stranger". I don't see how a 16 year old being able to obtain a driver's license has much to do with a 6 year old being asked to walk to the sitter's unsupervised after school, and be responsible for his little sister to boot. Certainly Swamp knows her kids better than we do. What difference does that make? Since strangers aren't the ones abducting kids contrary to urban myth identifying them wont help. Now if someone could help children know when uncle Charlie is really a pedophile and was able to convince people of that before it happened that would help immensely.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 22, 2012 13:35:02 GMT -5
I think by 16 the problem is molestation. You are now just in for rape. I bet most molestation cases are before 15 years old. Although, I could be wrong.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 22, 2012 13:35:21 GMT -5
DD can certainly ID strangers, and will probably run away screaming if a strange person talked to her. DS will talk to anyone.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 22, 2012 13:36:50 GMT -5
According to some people on this board, that means she has already been molested, and she won't tell you because she is afraid you will kill them and go to jail.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 22, 2012 13:38:29 GMT -5
According to some people on this board, that means she has already been molested, and she won't tell you because she is afraid you will kill them and go to jail. and some people on this board are freakshows.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 22, 2012 13:39:08 GMT -5
I don't see what I have to do with this.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 22, 2012 13:39:10 GMT -5
I think by 16 the problem is molestation. You are now just in for rape. I bet most molestation cases are before 15 years old. Although, I could be wrong. Never thought of it that way, but you're right, in general.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 22, 2012 13:45:33 GMT -5
I was only making the comparison because you said a 6yo can't developmentally think like an adult. To my knowledge, the only people able to developmentally think like adults are... adults. But we let kids start working, driving, and doing all sorts of other things before their brains have fully developed. I don't think you can draw a firm line and say that kids under age X aren't capable of doing something, but kids over age X are. Really? I must know some advanced 6yos. I don't have kids, but even my 2yo nephew knows the difference between family members he's met a few times vs. people he's never seen before... Yes. Really. It is quite well documented that young children don't really grasp what is meant by "stranger". A quick search turned this up, from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children: We have learned children do not have the same understanding of who a stranger is as an adult might, therefore, it is a difficult concept for the child to grasp. It is much more beneficial to children to help them build the confidence and self-esteem they need to stay as safe as possible in any potentially dangerous situation they encounter rather than teaching them to be "on the look out" for a particular type of person.pediatrics.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet%3FLanguageCountry=en%5FUS%26PageId=2814
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 22, 2012 13:47:25 GMT -5
Chances of being in a car accident is 1 in 4. Much the same as your chance of being molested. So, I don't feel bad that I raise that as a potential issue to think about. It appears to be EXACTLY as valid as bringing up abduction/molestation.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 22, 2012 13:48:00 GMT -5
Just in relation to a 6 yr old not recognizing a stranger - When I was in the 2nd grade (what is that 7 yrs old?) I was in Brownies and was doing the door to door selling Girl Scout cookies one Sat. That's how we did in the old days, you know. We lived on a dead end road so there was very little traffic and I was allowed to walk tot all the houses on my street but no farther. My parents pretty much knew everyone on our street and felt pretty safe letting me walk up and down the street. It had been drilled in my head over and over again not to ever get into a strangers car, etc. When I was on my way back home from the selling cookies a man in a car stopped and said he was visiting and wanted to know if I knew where any hotels were located and if I could come help him find one . I took off running for home, told my mom and she called the police. They came out and I gave a description the best I could. I actually think I did better at describing the car (and I still remember what it looked like to this day - the guy not so much). Anyway, sorry for the long story but at the age of 7 I did in fact recognize a stranger and knew enough not to talk to him and run away. All kids are different though and I do realize that not every child would have reacted this way, but there are a lot of kids who can recognize when something isn't right.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 22, 2012 13:50:42 GMT -5
That link isn't working for me, but from the quote wouldn't that mean teaching kids to go to a trusted adult if there was a concern.
My son isn't even 3 yet, but I can totally tell which people he recognizes and who he doesn't and watch him puzzle it out in a crowd.
He can also tell when people are too interested in him and he avoids them. We visit the assisted living my grandmother is in multiple times a week and some residents he won't go near even though they aren't strangers.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 22, 2012 13:51:26 GMT -5
A 16 year old generally is capable of identifying a "stranger". A 6 year old rarely is capable of identifying a "stranger". I don't see how a 16 year old being able to obtain a driver's license has much to do with a 6 year old being asked to walk to the sitter's unsupervised after school, and be responsible for his little sister to boot. Certainly Swamp knows her kids better than we do. What difference does that make? Since strangers aren't the ones abducting kids contrary to urban myth identifying them wont help. Now if someone could help children know when uncle Charlie is really a pedophile and was able to convince people of that before it happened that would help immensely. An urban myth? Are you serious? Simply because most abducted children are abducted by a non-custodial parent, that doesn't make the other children who are abducted by strangers "urban myths". Agree that children should be protected from family members as well as from strangers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 13:52:14 GMT -5
I talk to my kids about strangers. I brought up the lost dog scenario and then I ask them "why would a grown up ask a kid to help. Shouldn't they ask another grown up?" and they both agreed. I am hoping I impressed upon them that if a grown up asks them to help they should tell them to go ask another grown up.
They also know not to go anywhere near someone's car either.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 22, 2012 13:55:18 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is advocating against teaching kids to be as safe as possible in a variety of situations. That seems to be what Swamp is trying to accomplish.
But the above quote is not quite the same as "Kids don't recognize strangers." More on the level of, if you tell your kid to be on the lookout for a guy driving a van and asking about a lost puppy, and instead someone pulls up and says, "Hey, your mom told me to pick you up," they're not going to recognize the latter as a danger - since it's not a guy in a van.
(I don't know that this type of oversight is limited to children, based on the number of parents who allow their kids to be molested by people they know, yet are constantly on alert for stranger danger...)
Wouldn't "Walk straight to the babysitter's house, don't get in the car with ANYONE, don't go ANYWHERE else, and if something feels wrong, scream and find a trusted adult" just about cover it?
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 22, 2012 13:56:19 GMT -5
That link isn't working for me, but from the quote wouldn't that mean teaching kids to go to a trusted adult if there was a concern. My son isn't even 3 yet, but I can totally tell which people he recognizes and who he doesn't and watch him puzzle it out in a crowd. He can also tell when people are too interested in him and he avoids them. We visit the assisted living my grandmother is in multiple times a week and some residents he won't go near even though they aren't strangers. Sorry. Fixed the link. Yes, toddlers are often shy, hesitant, or downright afraid of people they don't know. Typically, this is outgrown by the age of 6.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 22, 2012 13:56:55 GMT -5
"Wouldn't "Walk straight to the babysitter's house, don't get in the car with ANYONE, don't go ANYWHERE else, and if something feels wrong, scream and find a trusted adult" just about cover it?"
Yep
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 22, 2012 13:58:29 GMT -5
I saw on Dateline awhile go that it doesn't work to teach kids to "be afraid of strangers/someone you don't know". To a kid when the guy says "Oh I am so and so" now in a kid's brain that is someone they "know".
The expert said it is far better to be specific and tell them don't go anywhere with someone that isn't mommy/daddy/grandparents/etc. Basically don't go with anyone that mommy/daddy hasn't told you it is okay to go with.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 22, 2012 14:00:25 GMT -5
Wouldn't "Walk straight to the babysitter's house, don't get in the car with ANYONE, don't go ANYWHERE else, and if something feels wrong, scream and find a trusted adult" just about cover it? Yes, those instructions would cover it, if they were followed. Unfortunately, young children often DO NOT follow such instructions. This is the problem.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 22, 2012 14:03:19 GMT -5
Then I'd say that young children who are capable of following these instructions should be permitted to do so, and those who aren't, shouldn't...
I walked home from school starting at age 6. My brother wasn't allowed to be home by himself til he was 12 or 13. Both were (IMO) appropriate decisions considering our ages and maturity levels.
Given Swamp's description of her children, I'd argue the younger one is more capable of making the trek to the babysitter's than the older one (though ostensibly the older one's brain is more developed).
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 22, 2012 14:03:43 GMT -5
I saw on Dateline awhile go that it doesn't work to teach kids to "be afraid of strangers/someone you don't know". To a kid when the guy says "Oh I am so and so" now in a kid's brain that is someone they "know". The expert said it is far better to be specific and tell them don't go anywhere with someone that isn't mommy/daddy/grandparents/etc. Basically don't go with anyone that mommy/daddy hasn't told you it is okay to go with. This is pretty much what I was taught. My mom gave me the name of one "back-up person" that was allowed to pick me up from school in case something happened and she or dad couldn't. We also had a carpool with another mother and I knew she was okay but also recognized the days of when she was coming and when mom was supposed to be there. I am not kidding when I say I don't think the teachers paid any attention to who a kid went with back then. The kid could have gotten in a car with anyone and they wouldn't have tried to stop them. It was all up to me to recognize what I was doing.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 22, 2012 14:04:08 GMT -5
I saw on Dateline awhile go that it doesn't work to teach kids to "be afraid of strangers/someone you don't know". To a kid when the guy says "Oh I am so and so" now in a kid's brain that is someone they "know". The expert said it is far better to be specific and tell them don't go anywhere with someone that isn't mommy/daddy/grandparents/etc. Basically don't go with anyone that mommy/daddy hasn't told you it is okay to go with. Also, there should be a family "password" that the person trying to approach them must provide or the child does NOT go. For example, the 4 Swamp Family members choose a word familiar to them and kept absolutely confidential but not commonly used out of context (i.e., "Baptism") and the adult trying to approach the child will have been told the password by Swamp and/or Mr. Swamp to prove their intentions. The rule is: No password, No go!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 22, 2012 14:08:17 GMT -5
Actually they found the password was a crock of crap too. They had a 'stranger' approach kids, introduce themselves and ask them to come help find their puppy. Not a single kid asked for the password. The parents were watching on hidden camera and were horrified.
They said the best thing is to just be straight forward, if mom and dad did not say it is okay, then you run away. It's okay to be rude, it is okay to say no. You run away and find a neighbor/teacher/policeman/etc to call mommy/daddy.
We were always taught at school you go back inside and find your teacher. At home we could go to several neighbors.
The experts said the more complicated your "stranger danger" plan gets the less likely kids are to follow it.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 22, 2012 14:09:49 GMT -5
When I was a kid, we had walking routes with line monitors (5th graders with special sashes) so no one had to walk home alone. Everyone going to a particular neighborhood congregated after school at a certain spot on the school grounds, and the line leaders would take positions at the front and the rear of the line and walk us home, pushing walk buttons and holding traffic when we crossed a couple of busy intersections. The line didn't go down every street or pass every house, but the route was circuitous enough that you left the line reasonably close to your house. (There was also a timed walk to school -- you had to be at a certain spot on your street at a specific time so you could jump into line for the walk *to* school.) The line leaders were very cool. Everyone wanted to be one. Too bad those sorts of arrangements no longer exist. In our town, we pay for the bus, and then the car traffic for kids being dropped off or picked up from school makes it obvious that no one is taking the buses we paid for.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 22, 2012 14:12:47 GMT -5
Do they still have "officer friendly" come out and talk to kids in elementary school about strangers and about how if any one you do know in the family or family friends does things that make you uncomfortable to tell someone you trust, yada yada, yada? I don't have kids so I am just curious.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 14:12:59 GMT -5
Same here! I learned the hard way that you avoid the Middle School between 3 pm & 4 pm. I told the kids while we were waiting that they will probably be the only two kids taking the bus when they go to that school.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 22, 2012 14:13:06 GMT -5
Just in relation to a 6 yr old not recognizing a stranger - When I was in the 2nd grade (what is that 7 yrs old?) I was in Brownies and was doing the door to door selling Girl Scout cookies one Sat. That's how we did in the old days, you know. We lived on a dead end road so there was very little traffic and I was allowed to walk tot all the houses on my street but no farther. My parents pretty much knew everyone on our street and felt pretty safe letting me walk up and down the street. It had been drilled in my head over and over again not to ever get into a strangers car, etc. When I was on my way back home from the selling cookies a man in a car stopped and said he was visiting and wanted to know if I knew where any hotels were located and if I could come help him find one . I took off running for home, told my mom and she called the police. They came out and I gave a description the best I could. I actually think I did better at describing the car (and I still remember what it looked like to this day - the guy not so much). Anyway, sorry for the long story but at the age of 7 I did in fact recognize a stranger and knew enough not to talk to him and run away. All kids are different though and I do realize that not every child would have reacted this way, but there are a lot of kids who can recognize when something isn't right. Funny you mentioned selling Girl Scout cookies - it triggered a memory. When my sister was 7 and I was 9, she was a GS (Brownie) but way too shy to sell the cookies. I was used to doing everything from walking her to school to working various neighborhood jobs since my mother wasn't around much and I wasn't nervous about talking to people, so I helped her. We had loaded the cookies in the wagon and walked a mile or so down to a nearby subdivision and were going door to door. At the door to one house, a well dressed, nice 20 something year old man opened the door and was very kind to us. After talking about how much he loved GS cookies, etc, etc, he said he'd buy 5 boxes. 5 boxes was a huge sale and we were excited. He turned around, walked into his house leaving the door open and said, "come on in while I get the money." OK, as an adult, that would set off warning bells, but even as a very smart, reasonably streetwise 9 year old who was used to buying food for the family, dealing with the electric company, etc., and had been extensively drilled on Stranger Danger just those few minutes of friendly talk had lulled me into comfort pretty easily and my sister and I stepped inside. As soon as we stepped inside his house, he turned, shut the door and locked it. As the lock made a loud click, I suddenly realized what a bad, bad idea it was to step into the house and what a big mistake I just made. My terror must have shown on my face, because he quickly said, "I keep the door locked so my 2 year old doesn't get out without me knowing." I didn't see a 2 year old, was only partly assured and still scared. The story ended OK, he paid us for 5 boxes of cookies, unlocked the door and we hightailed it out of there, but we all know it could have ended pretty badly. Again, not saying this to be unnecessarily TT on you, just that even smart kids with a little stranger experience can make really, really dumb decisions that can be very costly. You know your kids and the neighborhood better than we do. If you think it's OK, it probably is. I don't think the people with a different view (like your DH) are necessarily being helicopters in this situation, just that they see the risks differently.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 22, 2012 14:15:57 GMT -5
We had McGruff come out and talk to us about stranger danger. McGruff is a giant dog (think he's a bloodhound)dectecive wearing a trenchcoat. I know they have discontinued the program but I don't know if they have anything that replaced it, my kid isn't old enough for school yet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 14:17:15 GMT -5
I remember McGruff commercials!
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