would you allow your children to.......

[zibazinski]

Swamp, that's what I'd do. Win win for all concerned.

[Deleted]

I agree that you should just pay the 5th grader.

When I was growing up (back in the good old 1960s), I did walk to school. It was probably as close as you describe. I'm not sure if my sister walked with me or not.

However, I do remember in third grade going to a school carnival with my mother and sister. I got separated. So I walked home. I decided that may not have been a great idea since my mother and sister were probably looking for me. So to "placate" my mother, I made coffee for her.

The problem was that I didn't know how to make coffee. I simply put the coffee pot (that's how it was made back then) on the stove. No water and no coffee. I started a small kitchen fire. I think the only thing I burned up was the coffee pot, but you get the idea.

Kids that age, no matter how smart they are, don't think like adults do. The wanderer may wander. He/she suddenly sees the other one missing. He/she figures that one went on home. He/she wanders on home. The kid isn't there. He/she doesn't want to get in trouble so "waits" for the other one to arrive.

That's how predators get ahold of kids. I am not trying to scare you. I am just asking you to remember that even though kids "know" what to do, it doesn't always go down the way it is supposed to.

I wouldn't risk my kids. I wouldn't risk my kids the way my mother risked me. In second grade, I LOVED school. I always went early and became best friends with the janitor. He actually sent me home one day because I threw up before school started. That was sexual abuse waiting to happen, but he wasn't an abuser. But my mother should never have risked it. You honestly just don't know.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't do it, Swamp. I think that's just too young.

Also, even if I was willing, our local public school doesn't allow it. Here any child in first grade or younger must be "picked up" by somebody older (not necessarily an adult, it can be an older child, sibling or not).

Often in these cases I think that I'm probably being paranoid, but I figure, better safe than sorry.

[constanz22]

Jun 21, 2012 13:51:26 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Tough choice - I was wondering the same thing, but our school wouldn't allow it. They stop kids from walking alone either away from the school or home from the bus. My kids are allowed to circle the block all day every day to get to their friends' houses, but I have to pick them up 4 houses away at the bus stop. Is the 5th grader (now 6th grader) no longer available?

Wow, totally opposite here. School's do not bus ANYONE, including kindergartener's, who live within a mile radius of the school.

[Malarky]

Jun 21, 2012 13:07:26 GMT -5 swamp said:

damn, where is everyone who thinks I'm coddling my kids?!

Sorry I'm late. Stupid work.

I would and did let my kids walk three blocks (gasp) by themselves at that age. We talked about it, we practiced it and them I let them do it.

Of course, I had every busybody on the planet criticizing me behind my back and to my face. But hey, my kids were under constant surveillance. The other mother's kept a close eye on my kids just waiting for something bad to happen.

Fast forward to the teenage years. My kids are self sufficient. I can't say the same of some of their friends with the helicopter parents.

[Gardening Grandma]

Jun 21, 2012 18:49:19 GMT -5 Malarky said:

Jun 21, 2012 13:07:26 GMT -5 swamp said:

damn, where is everyone who thinks I'm coddling my kids?!

Sorry I'm late. Stupid work.

I would and did let my kids walk three blocks (gasp) by themselves at that age. We talked about it, we practiced it and them I let them do it.

Of course, I had every busybody on the planet criticizing me behind my back and to my face. But hey, my kids were under constant surveillance. The other mother's kept a close eye on my kids just waiting for something bad to happen.

Fast forward to the teenage years. My kids are self sufficient. I can't say the same of some of their friends with the helicopter parents.

Good for you. My kids always walked to school (except when we lived far enough away that they could take the bus). From kindergarten on.

They never did get hit by a truck or kidnapped or..... (and I don't think the world is any more dangerous now than then. The difference is that people are more fearful. For no good reason.

[Deleted]

Swamp - you may feel that your children are mature and maybe they are. But, kids at that age simply do not have the ability to adjust to differing circumstances and don't know what "to do" if presented with unknown variables. I would simply not put my chldren in that position. They really don't have the ability to make good judgements until about 12 or so in my opinion.

[Deleted]

What Shooby said, expressed much better than I could.

If it all goes well, every day, it all goes well. But what if there is a variable - one of them is sick, or one of their best friends is upset and they want to stay with them, or it is pouring out and somebody they know offers them a ride to the babysitter's house, or it is pouring out and somebody they don't know who says your mom sent me to pick you up offers them a ride to the babysitter's house ...

Like Shooby says, kids that age can follow instructions, but they do not necessarily have the maturity to make the right decisions if anything changes.

Also, what if the babysitter has an emergency, and she's not there one day?

To GG and Malarky, you know I adore both of you. But I don't think that being a parent who might be considered overly cautious for a seven-year-old (who would indeed most likely be just fine) necessarily implies that we will be setting the alarm clocks for our 18-year-old HS seniors and getting them out of bed and pouring their cereal and doing their laundry and supporting them ...

As Swamp herself said in another thread, there is always a happy medium. I agree that 18 is too old, but personally, I think 7 is too young.

We started that sort of thing with our kids at 9. That's when we started giving our kids more freedom. For several reasons: one, they are more mature, better able to respond in an emergency, more cautious. Two, they tend to make their own friends at that age, so they'd be more likely to walk "in a pack" with kids of their own choosing towards the babysitter's house. Three, in that situation, I'd probably give the older child (ie nine in my world) a VERY basic cell phone.

[Apple]

I've got mixed feelings... I walked to school on my own from kindergarten on (so 5-years-old). The neighbor down the street did not think her son was mature enough to walk by himself, so I had to pick him up. We walked about 5 blocks, one turn. Never had any issue EXCEPT the one time he hit me in the head with his bag and I started bleeding. I told him to run to the school and get the nurse (it was just a block, and closer to home). He was too scared to do it, so I had to walk him to the school and get myself to the nurse (I think I pretty much dropped when I got there, I was bleeding pretty bad).

My brother and sister were 6th and 4th graders when they had a morning paper route (delivered by 6 am), they got enough subscriptions to earn a trip to Disneyland at that age too (my parents did not go, they went with the paper crew). I had my own route in 5th grade, although only Sunday was morning delivery.

If DS wasn't an only child, and I didn't work out of town, he may have done a lot more walking to/from school. He had to walk 4 miles home from the bus stop once this year (he's 14), he'd never walked on that side of town before, but my thought was "he'll figure it out" so I drew him a map and told him to call if he needed to ask questions.

[Sum Dum Gai]

If it all goes well, every day, it all goes well. But what if there is a variable - one of them is sick, or one of their best friends is upset and they want to stay with them, or it is pouring out and somebody they know offers them a ride to the babysitter's house, or it is pouring out and somebody they don't know who says your mom sent me to pick you up offers them a ride to the babysitter's house ...

Like Shooby says, kids that age can follow instructions, but they do not necessarily have the maturity to make the right decisions if anything changes.

That's all true, but the part that gets left out is that the odds of being randomly kidnapped by a stranger are roughly the same as being struck by lightning. Do you guys keep your kids indoors at all times so mother nature doesn't take them out? Of course not, it's ridiculous right? You would probably tell them that practicing pole vaulting during a thunderstorm is a monumentally stupid idea, but you don't live in fear of a really rare event. Giving kids a little freedom within the neighborhood is the same way. You teach them to yell fire or rape at the top of their little lungs if anybody ever tries to get them anywhere near a car for any reason, and to keep doing it until a police officer shows up.

The thing to keep in mind is that the kids aren't walking home in a vacuum. They don't go to school that let's out at 9pm in a shady part of town, with the school surrounded by abandoned warehouses half of which are used as meth labs. They also aren't the only kids walking at that time. If their school looks anything like the one down the block, there are roughly 100 kids crossing the street out front right after school lets out. There's a stop light there, so if following the crowd is too complicated, they just have to know that the red hand means don't go and the stick figure walking guy means go. When they get to the other side, there are plenty of other kids walking home too. There are parents there picking kids up. There are people out on their lawn trying not to be helicopter parents, but always "weeding the front lawn" as school lets out and their kids are walking home. These kids have to go like one block at the same time as a bunch of other kids all doing the same thing, while at least some parents are around supervising or surreptitiously checking on some of them. Statistically, they'll be just fine.

Cut the apron strings lady.

[Deleted]

That's all true, but the part that gets left out is that the odds of being randomly kidnapped by a stranger are roughly the same as being struck by lightning.

I do know this, Dark, and I totally agree on the stats.

Still, I prefer keeping the "apron strings" on till they're nine or so. That's the age where we teach them to cross big streets on their own, go to the pool on their own, walk to school on their own.

Cut the apron strings lady.

Was that comment addressed to ME?! LOL! Job done! Mine are 25, 24, 19 and 14 now LOL!

Obviously I need to just shut up now!

[Phoenix84]

What's Jr. Kindergarden, is that the new name for preschool?

[Deleted]

Also, Dark, I'm sorry to say that you sound a little bit hypocritical. You may feel that way, but I'm guessing Loop is there most days, if not every day, to pick your girls up.

I'm sure it's fun to trot out the statistics though, with a SAHM picking the girls up most days, if not every day.

If Swamp had a SAHM in her family, she probably wouldn't be dealing with this issue either. Their issue is that both parents work.

But Swamp would have more class than to trot out a hypothetical and mocking response, especially if it didn't actually apply to her situation.

[KaraBoo]

At that age, I would have mixed feelings as well.

I think I allowed my son to walk to school in 2nd grade, 8 years old, I believe - but we also held him back in 1st grade, so he was a little older already. We also live about a 1/2 mile from the school on a street with sidewalks and lots of parents/retirees. I received reports from them periodically about how well he did - straight to school and straight home (although I was home within 15 minutes of him arriving - I worked 6am-2:30pm at that time).

I did get very frustrated with the family court judge whenever we asked the courts to change custody from my step-kids mom to their dad/us. When it came out in court that my son walked to school and were we expecting the s-kids to walk as well (oldest girl was going into 6th grade, both boys were in 4th grade and youngest girl was 1st grade), she had a fit! She gave us this huge lecture about child abductions and how we might as well be putting signs on them that said "Fresh meat! Come and get it!" (she didn't say that exactly - but that was what it sounded like). She actually wrote in the temporary custody orders that NONE of the children were allowed to walk to/from school once custody changed to us.

I was so glad when the ex-wife signed over custody to us without going back to court - that was the first clause in the custody orders DH and I asked our lawyer to lose. Ex-wife signed it without saying anything and so did the judge.

[weltschmerz]

I was a latchkey kid and both my parents worked. I used to walk seven blocks home by myself from kindergarden. One day I went home and there was nobody and nothing there. Not even furniture. My parents had moved. My dad was supposed to pick me up that day from school but I forgot. Aside from that, nothing bad happened.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Also, Dark, I'm sorry to say that you sound a little bit hypocritical. You may feel that way, but I'm guessing Loop is there most days, if not every day, to pick your girls up.

I'm sure it's fun to trot out the statistics though, with a SAHM picking the girls up most days, if not every day.

Loop is usually home, but she doesn't pick the kids up. They walk home. It's not any different than having them walk to a babysitter's house where the babysitter will be home.

Now that ours are a little older they occasionally come home to an empty house. If Loop has a board meeting or whatever. But ours are 10 and 11 now, not 6 and 4. At that age I wouldn't be comfortable having them walk home to an empty house, but walking a short distance to a babysitter's house is different.

But Swamp would have more class than to trot out a hypothetical and mocking response, especially if it didn't actually apply to her situation.

Dude... Swamp is a lawyer first of all. They freaking love hypothetical situations that don't necessarily apply. Second, have you ever met Swamp? She's the only other person here that's as much of a mocking pain in the ass as I am.

[Deleted]

LOL!

Thank you for acknowledging that 11 is not 7, Dark! And no, I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Swamp.

And thank you (and K) for diffusing this, I was definitely being crabby.

[Loopdilou]

I picked my kids up 3 times all year.. 2 of those times were the last two days of school when they had too much crap to carry.

They've been walking home on their own since we moved here, because we're 3 blocks from school. If we had always lived 3 blocks from school they would have been doing so on their own from age 7 on. They are required to use the buddy system, if one kid is out they call me directly before leaving school. There are 20 other kids walking the same route, no biggy.

I'm not always here and they are home on their own for hours sometimes (we try to keep it under 2). My parents hate it

They also take the dog for 1 1/2 mile walks ON THEIR OWN! Earth shaking.

Each parent has to decide if their children are mature enough - they will never be mature enough if you don't give them a chance. Use precaution, establish rules and guidelines, and teach them emergency procedures. They might just surprise you.

[Deleted]

"Each parent has to decide if their children are mature enough - they will never be mature enough if you don't give them a chance. Use precaution, establish rules and guidelines, and teach them emergency procedures. They might just surprise you."

Karma!

[Loopdilou]

Danke

[swamp]

If it all goes well, every day, it all goes well. But what if there is a variable - one of them is sick, or one of their best friends is upset and they want to stay with them, or it is pouring out and somebody they know offers them a ride to the babysitter's house, or it is pouring out and somebody they don't know who says your mom sent me to pick you up offers them a ride to the babysitter's house ...

If one is sick, the other will either be escorted or stay with Gramma at school. If someone offers them a ride, 4 yo DD will run away screaming because she's afraid of strangers. DS will chase after her.

Also, what if the babysitter has an emergency, and she's not there one day?

She would either have someone cover for her or she would call the school and tell the kids to stay there.

The thing to keep in mind is that the kids aren't walking home in a vacuum. They don't go to school that let's out at 9pm in a shady part of town, with the school surrounded by abandoned warehouses half of which are used as meth labs

It's actually a very nice (for the city it's in) neighborhood. Mr. A lives on the corner and he's always out puttering in his garage with his beagle by his side. The dog adores my kids. Next door to him, around the corner is Mrs. G, who does home daycare and recognizes my kids. Then is Mr. and Mrs. P, Mrs. P used to bowl with my mom and covers for the sitter if she needs to step out. Across the street is Mr. and Mrs. H. Mrs. H is my aunt's (mom's sister) husband's sister. These people all know my kids. and would shoo them back to where they are supposed to go.

What's Jr. Kindergarden, is that the new name for preschool?

It's a Kindergarten readiness program, it's a half day in the public school, but all day in the private school. It's academically what kindergarten used to be. DD should be starting kindergarten in the fall but I redshirted her, which is a topic for another thread. She has some separation anxiety issues

[Deleted]

Most likely everything will be fine. Except when it isn't. A friend of mine was standing with her and another mom and their 2 4 yr olds. They turned to walk toward the porch and for some reason the 4 year darted out into the street and was killed. We can all tell you lots of stories. One thing that is certain and for sure is that death is final. I so would NOT take any chances whatsoever with a 6 and 4 yr old who still engage in magical thinking and certainly cannot foresee, plan, or make informed decisions. Based on child developmental stages, they are not equipped to be alone. A 4 or 6 yr old could decide it would be fun to follow and ride on a butterfly. You really don't know what they are thinking. My kids were ALWAYS with a responsible adult until they were old enough to be alone for periods which i and the law determine to be age 12. They either had to go to daycare after school or grammies. Or, they were with us or an adult friend. I allowed no gaps where they were alone. That was my comfort level and that is what i did.

[swamp]

but how do they develop the judgment necessary to be alone until you actually leave them alone? The kids aren't automatically imparted with wisdom at 12 or any other magical age?

[Deleted]

What a terrible tragedy for your friend, shooby.

My kids are the same age as swamp's and I still worry about them crossing the street to get the mail. I think I need to start untying some apron strings.

[midjd]

but how do they develop the judgment necessary to be alone until you actually leave them alone? The kids aren't automatically imparted with wisdom at 12 or any other magical age?

This is why I think the graduated approach is probably best. Start giving them a little freedom now and increase it every year or so. They may not be able to make wise decisions now, but neither will they be able to if you drop them into a situation at age 12 (or 18, or 21) with no preparation.

[Gardening Grandma]

how do they develop the judgment necessary to be alone until you actually leave them alone? The kids aren't automatically imparted with wisdom at 12 or any other magical age?


And isn't that the question? - in a nutshell...

I agree that every kid is different and only the parents have a clue as to whether the kid is old enough or mature enough. And there is a fine line between protecting the kid and projecting your own fears onto them. And although they have higher odds of getting struck by lightening than being kidnapped, a parent's worst fear isn't lightening....

[Deleted]

Jun 22, 2012 9:03:58 GMT -5 swamp said:

but how do they develop the judgment necessary to be alone until you actually leave them alone? The kids aren't automatically imparted with wisdom at 12 or any other magical age?

No, but based on Child Development and child brain development, a child that age simply does not and cannot have the wherewithal and ability to predict or understand consequences. There isn't a magic age of absolute delineation but there are real childhood developmental issues which occur. My older son at 12 was much more capable of taking on unknown situations and taking care of himself than my younger son. And, because i recognized this, i did not allow my younger son to be in those kinds of positions until he was ready.
For a 4 and 6, there is NO WAY they are even remotely capable of being responsible or of having the ability to cope in an unusual circumstance. And, kids under 12 legally must be supervised so if you are leaving them unsupervised you are also could be fined.

[Colleenz]

Does this thread make anyone else think of Toughtimes?

[midjd]

And, kids under 12 legally must be supervised so if you are leaving them unsupervised you are also could be fined.

This varies state-by-state and VERY few states have an actual age at which kids can be left alone - most of the standards are pretty subjective and within the parents' discretion.

[973beachbum]

Jun 22, 2012 9:27:18 GMT -5 Colleenz said:

Does this thread make anyone else think of Toughtimes?

Thank you so much for saying that. I thought it was me.