How expensive can a divorce be

[Wisconsin Beth]

May 10, 2012 0:27:01 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

So sharing details on a message board is out, but actively plotting to deceive your spouse on something as personal and important as when and whether to reproduce, and bringing your family in on a plot against your husband--that's all okay?

A mistake is one thing. Knowing that your spouse isn't ready to reproduce and trying to trick him/her into doing it anyway--while pretending to agree AND discussing it all with your family behind his/her back--that's not something I could forgive easily, or perhaps at all. Then again that's me and being manipulated is a hot-button topic for me.

Carl: Whatever you decide, the board will nitpick it to death, but support you wholly. In our own totally dysfunctional way.

[Deleted]

All I am saying is that they need counseling so that both parties can come to an agreement about this together

we can agree on this. Regarding one spouse wanting kids and the other spouse not wanting kids - I would defer to the one who doesn't want them, even though I don't think anyone should have to spend their marriage resenting their spouse for (not) wanting kids.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 7:44:01 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

May 10, 2012 7:32:39 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

by offering to be his sugar daddy?

That's only the icing on the cake.

"and it's not even his birthday...."

[Wisconsin Beth]

May 10, 2012 7:48:02 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

May 10, 2012 7:44:01 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

That's only the icing on the cake.

"and it's not even his birthday...."

Have a very merry unbirthday!

[whoisjohngalt]

I don't know about others, but I am not saying that lying is not a big deal. It is a big deal. But for everyone who is saying "OMG, it's a BABY, life changing, etc etc' - well, guess what, Carl is saying he would be OK with that. So, keep that in mind when you are bashing his wife.

And, yes, I do think that providing THIS much personal info on the internet is dangerous. We know where he lives, who he is, his name, even where he works. Wouldn't be that hard to find his family. So, if I were his wife and found out that my DH is talking about what kind of sex we have and when I am ovulating and how much money we make and about my mother and my cousin who died, etc etc etc - yeah, I would be "slightly" upset, bc it really wouldn't take anyone that long to find us/me if they wanted to. You all might not find that wrong and deceiving in a way, but I do. That would be A HUGE invasion of my privacy, my marriage and my life. Not to mention, that I don't know if I could trust that decisions he made though the years were his or YM's "advised"

Lena

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Wow, I can't believe how many people are saying this is okay and Carl should just forgive and forget. Really?

What I find the most twisted in all this is her family. What person in their right mind encourages someone to decieve their spouse and not only that, looks up drugs to put in his morning coffee?!

If a friend came to me with this idea honestly at first I think she was joking. When I found out she was serious, after picking myself up off the floor my reaction would not be "let me google some drugs that can help out".

A huge part of this mess, IMO is the level of dysfunction in their families. Someone should have been knocking some sense into Mrs C, not encouraging her.

The fact that she allowed herself to be encouraged and convinced this is the right thing by someone who sounds like she has as much business handing out parenting advice as the Lohans, to me means she's not thinking clearly on the subject.

Whether Carl decides to work with her and forgive her is his decision. BUT I think she needs help regardless because in her desperation to have a baby at any costs, she may just have ended up costing herself everything.

If you are that blinded by desire for something you need some help getting perspective and it clearly isn't going to come from her nutball family members.

[midjd]

I agree with this but that isn't what I read in the past 18 pages. What I saw was 18 pages of what an evil bitch she is and that once HE decided that they shouldn't have kids yet it was over.
Decideng together is way different from one person deciding and the other has to just live with it, which is exactly what people have been saying here.

Yeah - and from what he's said about her personality (deferential/hates confrontation), what he perceives as discussion/agreement on a subject could just be her telling him what he wants to hear. Doesn't excuse her behavior, but I suspect the deception stems from miscommunication. Thinking back on past posts, they've come to several "agreements" on things to which she's found some runaround - e.g. promising to spend less money on purses and then getting her mom to buy her a purse. So they might have agreed to "not try" for kids, but in her mind, what she was doing didn't constitute "trying", so it's OK. (Also explains her "Y U mad?" reaction).

I think they need counseling regardless of whether they stay together - because these types of communication issues (and their responses) will probably persist in future relationships, too.

[Opti]

Beach, the whole situation does seem a bit more shades of gray the more we know about it. Only Carl really knows how much he was trying to balance the desires of his wife with actively preventing pregnancy. Because of how the situation has been in practice you can see somewhat why the wife might feel as she does.

I don't know if counseling will necessarily help or change things. I did have a man in my life from a different culture who never came to my point of view on borrowing and paying back. I made it one of my deal breakers and every once in awhile I wonder if it was the right choice. She may never see the situation as he does and it may be because she doesn't want to and/or her own personal culture says its OK or not that bad.

Only he and she can decide what they want to do from here. I had very similar feelings to Carl, love and aggravation. While I disagree with the male posters who said deception is the nature of the beast perhaps their intentions were spot on - all people will act in ways you don't want for reasons of their own.

[swamp]

A huge part of this mess, IMO is the level of dysfunction in their families. Someone should have been knocking some sense into Mrs C, not encouraging her.

I agree, but the sense knocking isn't going to come from people who breed like rabbits without regard to how these kids are going to be supported.

I feel for Mrs. C. She is surrounded by family members who are putting horrible pressure on her to have a baby and treating her like someone to be pitied because she's made it to 27 without getting pregnant.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 8:13:55 GMT -5 swamp said:

A huge part of this mess, IMO is the level of dysfunction in their families. Someone should have been knocking some sense into Mrs C, not encouraging her.

I agree, but the sense knocking isn't going to come from people who breed like rabbits without regard to how these kids are going to be supported.

I feel for Mrs. C. She is surrounded by family members who are putting horrible pressure on her to have a baby and treating her like someone to be pitied because she's made it to 27 without getting pregnant.

A divorce will help her.

[swamp]

May 10, 2012 8:19:43 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

May 10, 2012 8:13:55 GMT -5 swamp said:

I agree, but the sense knocking isn't going to come from people who breed like rabbits without regard to how these kids are going to be supported.

I feel for Mrs. C. She is surrounded by family members who are putting horrible pressure on her to have a baby and treating her like someone to be pitied because she's made it to 27 without getting pregnant.

A divorce will help her.

Yes, so then she can be doubly pitied for being childless and manless. Apparently that is a fate worse than death in her family.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I feel for Mrs. C. She is surrounded by family members who are putting horrible pressure on her to have a baby and treating her like someone to be pitied because she's made it to 27 without getting pregnant.

I do too. I don't think she is evil at all. I think some wires are crossed.

Toss in some s dysfunctional family members who seem to love a good soap opera and it's a recipe for disaster.

Serious boundaries would need to be drawn if they work things out. I can't see it working if family was still allowed to have this kind of influence over these decisions.

I said it before that really that is the part I would be most upset about the fact that her family was involved in this conspiracy.

I also wanted to say that I can understand everyone's view on message boards but I can see why Carl might not be discussing this with people in RL.

You got her family who is actively encouraging her, if he tells his family you'd probably end up with a Hatfield v McCoy type situation since none of them seem capable of MYOB.

Then if they have mutual friends that puts them in the awkward position of feeling like they need to take sides.

So while I do think Carl does give out TMI sometimes we're still about as close to anyomous as he can get.

Plus he can just click on the X if he doesn't want to read what we post.

You can't turn off family/friends and they tend to have a lot longer memories than message boards.

I probably wouldn't be talking to anyone in RL until I made a decision about whether or stay or to go. But I'd still want someone to talk to.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 8:20:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

May 10, 2012 8:19:43 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

A divorce will help her.

Yes, so then she can be doubly pitied for being childless and manless. Apparently that is a fate worse than death in her family.

some days I wish for a fate worse than death. Is that wrong?

[swamp]

May 10, 2012 8:23:18 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

May 10, 2012 8:20:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

Yes, so then she can be doubly pitied for being childless and manless. Apparently that is a fate worse than death in her family.

some days I wish for a fate worse than death. Is that wrong?

It's only wrong if you act on it. Just thinking is fine.

[Deleted]

IRL, I try to stay neutral when my friends vent about their relationships. I'm very careful about bashing my friends' SO's. I try to be there for them and I try to keep my opinion to myself (sometimes it's very difficult) unless they directly ask for it. Except for the friend whose husband hit her. I was pretty vocal about my thoughts on that subject.

I'm going the same route with Carl. I have no idea what I would do in his situation, and even if I did have an idea, that doesn't mean it's what I would really do if it ever actually happened to me. He didn't really ask for opinions on the relationship issue anyway.

I'm going to tell my virtual friend Carl the same thing I'd tell a real life friend. Take some time and sort your thoughts out and understand the root of the problem. You really need that clarity before you can decide what needs to happen so you can move forward in whatever direction you think is best. And you need to be able to clearly express it to your wife so that hopefully it will make some kind of sense to her. If you two are going to try to work the issue out, you both need to understand and agree on what you're working on. If you decide it's worth calling it quits, I think she deserves a clear explanation of what brought you to that point. If you need some help sorting it all out, maybe you should talk to a neutral third party to help you.

Like I said before, I just want you to be ok. I think all of us here want that for you.

[happyhoix]

To put what Mrs C did in a little bit of perspective, there is a letter to Dear Prudie on Slate today where a woman suspected her MIL of trying to poison her because every time she visited MIL's house, she got violently ill. She told her DH and he said she was imaging things. Went over for Easter dinner, managed to switch plates without anyone noticing, and DH went home and got violently ill. Wife told DH that she switched plates and this proves his mother was trying to poison her, and her DH gets pissed and yells at her for poisoning him. So I guess we can infer from that that Dear Hubbie was in on the plot with his momma to off his wife.

So she's divorcing him - I don't think there would be many people who would argue with that.

So Carl, your wife and family may be a little much, but at least they aren't trying to kill you

[Wisconsin Beth]

May 10, 2012 8:23:18 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

May 10, 2012 8:20:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

Yes, so then she can be doubly pitied for being childless and manless. Apparently that is a fate worse than death in her family.

some days I wish for a fate worse than death. Is that wrong?

Hell no.

[Opti]

Thinking back on past posts, they've come to several "agreements" on things to which she's found some runaround - e.g. promising to spend less money on purses and then getting her mom to buy her a purse.

I remember that incident somewhat. The way its phrased above though what she did was perfectly reasonable. The goal stated up above was to spend less (of her money) on purses and she did so.


I had a relationship that really stretched me when it came to compromise as we saw many things differently. But it was great training in learning how to try to find win/win or at least scenarios
that didn't have lose on one or both sides. Effective negotiation IMO
is finding a way to give both parties at least some of what they want even if its not necessarily in the form they would have chosen when they start discussing it. If the agreements have been mostly based on what Carl wants instead of what they both want it makes sense she's not going to want to honor them. She would need some significant shifts in her worldview to see things as Carl does.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 8:33:24 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

To put what Mrs C did in a little bit of perspective, there is a letter to Dear Prudie on Slate today where a woman suspected her MIL of trying to poison her because every time she visited MIL's house, she got violently ill. She told her DH and he said she was imaging things. Went over for Easter dinner, managed to switch plates without anyone noticing, and DH went home and got violently ill. Wife told DH that she switched plates and this proves his mother was trying to poison her, and her DH gets pissed and yells at her for poisoning him. So I guess we can infer from that that Dear Hubbie was in on the plot with his momma to off his wife.

So she's divorcing him - I don't think there would be many people who would argue with that.

So Carl, your wife and family may be a little much, but at least they aren't trying to kill you

wow.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 10, 2012 8:23:18 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I feel for Mrs. C. She is surrounded by family members who are putting horrible pressure on her to have a baby and treating her like someone to be pitied because she's made it to 27 without getting pregnant.

I do too. I don't think she is evil at all. I think some wires are crossed.

Toss in some s dysfunctional family members who seem to love a good soap opera and it's a recipe for disaster.

Serious boundaries would need to be drawn if they work things out. I can't see it working if family was still allowed to have this kind of influence over these decisions.

I said it before that really that is the part I would be most upset about the fact that her family was involved in this conspiracy.

I also wanted to say that I can understand everyone's view on message boards but I can see why Carl might not be discussing this with people in RL.

You got her family who is actively encouraging her, if he tells his family you'd probably end up with a Hatfield v McCoy type situation since none of them seem capable of MYOB.

Then if they have mutual friends that puts them in the awkward position of feeling like they need to take sides.

So while I do think Carl does give out TMI sometimes we're still about as close to anyomous as he can get.

Plus he can just click on the X if he doesn't want to read what we post.

You can't turn off family/friends and they tend to have a lot longer memories than message boards.

I probably wouldn't be talking to anyone in RL until I made a decision about whether or stay or to go. But I'd still want someone to talk to.

Mrs. C has a tremendous battle against her thoroughly dysfunctional family that breeds indiscrimately, and Carl...who wants them to have a secure future. I can appreciate this. I can also understand her severe case of baby rabies.

What it boils down to is that Carl cannot afford HER student loan debt without her working. And he (and everyone else here) knows that when she has a baby, she will want and fight to be a SAHM. Once she steps out of her field, she will have a difficult time getting back in, so even if her intentions are for a year, despite Carl being on an upward trajectory, he will not be able to replace her income for probably another decade.

He seems to realize that that student loan debt is not going to go away unless they pay it off. And knowing the field she is in, even with a doctorate, her income is not going to come close to be able to service it without help. Carl cannot ignore this because he can to help pay this (and I think he said he had another $30k himself), but he needs her working to help pay it too.

[The J]

May 10, 2012 7:38:44 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

What I saw was 18 pages of what an evil bitch she is and that once HE decided that they shouldn't have kids yet it was over.
Decideng together is way different from one person deciding and the other has to just live with it, which is exactly what people have been saying here.

When it comes to having kids, one party should be able to unilaterally say no. One party should not be able to unilaterally say yes. The creation of another person is a whole different level of responsibility. If someone doesn't want that responsibility, or is not ready for it, it should not be thrust upon them. Mrs. C should decide if waiting is a deal-breaker for her and then act accordingly. She should not try to find a way to work around the no. This isn't similar to whether or not she upholds an agreement regarding sticking to an allowance. This is a game-changer.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

I've been reading many of the posts here and finally decided to toss in a couple of cents.

Anyone see the dichotomy here. Carl does not want to have a baby yet. He has said NO. His wife is insistent and will do anything to sabotage this and damage her marriage.

Interesting when women do not know what NO means.

No means NO.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

May 10, 2012 8:45:06 GMT -5 The J said:

May 10, 2012 7:38:44 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

What I saw was 18 pages of what an evil bitch she is and that once HE decided that they shouldn't have kids yet it was over.
Decideng together is way different from one person deciding and the other has to just live with it, which is exactly what people have been saying here.

When it comes to having kids, one party should be able to unilaterally say no. One party should not be able to unilaterally say yes. The creation of another person is a whole different level of responsibility. If someone doesn't want that responsibility, or is not ready for it, it should not be thrust upon them. Mrs. C should decide if waiting is a deal-breaker for her and then act accordingly. She should not try to find a way to work around the no. This isn't similar to whether or not she upholds an agreement regarding sticking to an allowance. This is a game-changer.

[kimber45]

Holy cow, when I left yesterday this was only 5 pages, looks like I got some catching up to do

[Epiphany]

Ok I haven't chimed in much and haven't read the last couple pages past his update, but I discussed this situation with DH last night and was surprised by the difference in our reaction. For the record we know THREE women who have done this and gotten pregnant with their DH's. These are women we don't care for but the point is that I think it is kind of common.

My take: The deception and trust is what you have to work through. She probably thought he wasn't fair by saying it'd be ok, then the next saying we need to be financially secure. So she wrongly took things into her own hands and feels she made the best decision. To me, since she didn't actually get pregnant this opens the door for real conversations to take place between them about expectations, trust, real feelings, etc. This would be best with a third party counselor to sort through everything.

I likened it to finding out your spouse has been looking at p*orn instead of having sex with you or has racked up a ton of cc debt without you knowing. Infidelity through lying, deceit, etc. But to me, it's not divorce worthy if both come back to ground zero and really open up and fix the trust and root problem (she wants a baby, he doesn't right now). And frankly her reaction reminds me of a guy saying "ok, fine, I won't look at p*orn anymore, happy now?" where you are still dealing with the trust thing (just using p*orn as an example, I know lots of couples are fine with it) But it's a rough spot you can work through.

DH saw it differently - he said she'd be gone because a child is a LIFETIME commitment so the betrayal of trust is much more than a one night stand or something. This kind of shocked me but I see know everyone reacts differently to different issues.

I really suggest you two go to counseling to deal with the trust issue and how to communicate better. I really think you can work through it but she has to see how deeply she betrayed you and some is on your end too, and a third party can help you through those rough patches.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Mrs. C has a tremendous battle against her thoroughly dysfunctional family that breeds indiscrimately, and Carl...who wants them to have a secure future.



We have sane family members/friends and I've told DH if I hear one more time how we should just go ahead and have another kid and "things will work out" I am going to punch someone in the face.

I can't imagine the pressure coming from Mrs C's family where everyone is a bunch of enablers and it really does look like "everything works out fine".

[973beachbum]

Trying to take this discussion away from one couple.

there are people who always knew they wanted to become parents. I also know some who always knew they wanted to become young parents. It didn't matter what their family thought they wanted this. It would be very hard for them to be married this long and keep being told to wait. At a certain point they would have to wonder if they were just being strung along.

As far as SL's and finances and having a baby. It leads to another quesion which maybe should be it's own thread, I don't know.

What happens if they never get to the point where their finances are "set" or "perfect"?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I do think Carl gets too wrapped up in his finanical goals sometimes, but I can also see where he is coming from.

Right now neither one of us makes enough to have the other stay home or have two kids in daycare, if we want another one it's going to be awhile.

We're never going to be 'perfect', I barely met YM's benchmarks for being prepared for a baby, but there is being perfect vs putting yourself in a position where you are uncomfortable finanically.

Their families seem to be perfectly comfortable up to their eyeballs in doo doo while taking loans from other family members and friends. IF they didn't have their enablers all of them would probably fall flat on their faces.

I can see how it would be very hard for Mrs C to grasp what Carl is trying to get across. She may see it as he is trying to make everythign "perfect" whereas he sess it as not ending up like their family members.

That's where a therapist could really help.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 8:45:06 GMT -5 The J said:

May 10, 2012 7:38:44 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

What I saw was 18 pages of what an evil bitch she is and that once HE decided that they shouldn't have kids yet it was over.
Decideng together is way different from one person deciding and the other has to just live with it, which is exactly what people have been saying here.

When it comes to having kids, one party should be able to unilaterally say no. One party should not be able to unilaterally say yes. The creation of another person is a whole different level of responsibility. If someone doesn't want that responsibility, or is not ready for it, it should not be thrust upon them. Mrs. C should decide if waiting is a deal-breaker for her and then act accordingly. She should not try to find a way to work around the no. This isn't similar to whether or not she upholds an agreement regarding sticking to an allowance. This is a game-changer.

I agree.

[973beachbum]

May 10, 2012 9:06:43 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I do think Carl gets too wrapped up in his finanical goals sometimes, but I can also see where he is coming from.

Right now neither one of us makes enough to have the other stay home or have two kids in daycare, if we want another one it's going to be awhile.

We're never going to be 'perfect', I barely met YM's benchmarks for being prepared for a baby, but there is being perfect vs putting yourself in a position where you are uncomfortable finanically.

Their families seem to be perfectly comfortable up to their eyeballs in doo doo while taking loans from other family members and friends. IF they didn't have their enablers all of them would probably fall flat on their faces.

I can see how it would be very hard for Mrs C to grasp what Carl is trying to get across. She may see it as he is trying to make everythign "perfect" whereas he sess it as not ending up like their family members.

That's where a therapist could really help.