How expensive can a divorce be

[Nazgul Girl]

Oh boy, Carl, this is pretty tough. However, since you do love each other, I would try some counseling, both individually and together, to help you both see your goals more clearly as individuals and a couple before throwing in the towel. Things that sometimes seem overwhelming one year are often faded away and less important down the road. Your wife revealed a very flaky side, but she's not a bad person. If I had nine years into a marriage, I would try to save it if there was no abuse ( except of sexual methodologies in your case ). Good luck and I truly hope that you can work it out. Perhaps you starting a baby savings fund with a goal to have a kid by the time you're 31 and she's 29 would be a possible compromise.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Carl, I'm so sorry this has happened.
I've been through a divorce, and it was/is not fun. Granted I have children with my XH. I do believe that it would be easier to go through a divorce without children involved.
However, I do think that if you still both love and like your wife and believe that there might be a chance you will be able to move past this challenge, then You need to explore every opportunity and avenue to determine if you want to stay married.

I wish you peace.

[Angel!]

May 9, 2012 20:02:09 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

But she didn't set out to hurt him and I think that should matter. Someone said a few pages back that they would prefer if their SO just slept with someone. Well, if you cheat, there is pretty much a 99% chance that you will be hurting your SO. Carl's wife didn't think she was hurting him, at least not according to his posts

And Carl even said that if she got pregnant, he wouldn't be THAT upset. So, may be the thought she knew him.

Lena

Most people that cheat don't do so with the intent to hurt either. What they don't know won't hurt them, right? Same case here, she didn't intend to hurt carl but she also didn't intend for him to find out.

She knew this would upset him or else she wouldn't have been hiding it. Just like a cheating spouse hides something that will hurt the other. She was just playing the game that the ends justify the means.

The only thing I can say is she may not have realized the scale of which this would piss him off. She probably didn't realize how badly this would damage his trust in her, but then she thought she would be pregnant before he found out her game.

[Miss Tequila]

May 9, 2012 21:55:48 GMT -5 Angel! said:

May 9, 2012 20:02:09 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

But she didn't set out to hurt him and I think that should matter. Someone said a few pages back that they would prefer if their SO just slept with someone. Well, if you cheat, there is pretty much a 99% chance that you will be hurting your SO. Carl's wife didn't think she was hurting him, at least not according to his posts

And Carl even said that if she got pregnant, he wouldn't be THAT upset. So, may be the thought she knew him.

Lena

Most people that cheat don't do so with the intent to hurt either. What they don't know won't hurt them, right? Same case here, she didn't intend to hurt carl but she also didn't intend for him to find out.

She knew this would upset him or else she wouldn't have been hiding it. Just like a cheating spouse hides something that will hurt the other. She was just playing the game that the ends justify the means.

The only thing I can say is she may not have realized the scale of which this would piss him off. She probably didn't realize how badly this would damage his trust in her, but then she thought she would be pregnant before he found out her game.

[Formerly SK]

May 9, 2012 21:55:48 GMT -5 Angel! said:

May 9, 2012 20:02:09 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

But she didn't set out to hurt him and I think that should matter. Someone said a few pages back that they would prefer if their SO just slept with someone. Well, if you cheat, there is pretty much a 99% chance that you will be hurting your SO. Carl's wife didn't think she was hurting him, at least not according to his posts

And Carl even said that if she got pregnant, he wouldn't be THAT upset. So, may be the thought she knew him.

Lena

Most people that cheat don't do so with the intent to hurt either. What they don't know won't hurt them, right? Same case here, she didn't intend to hurt carl but she also didn't intend for him to find out.

She knew this would upset him or else she wouldn't have been hiding it. Just like a cheating spouse hides something that will hurt the other. She was just playing the game that the ends justify the means.

The only thing I can say is she may not have realized the scale of which this would piss him off. She probably didn't realize how badly this would damage his trust in her, but then she thought she would be pregnant before he found out her game.

And instead of apologizing profusely and trying to make amends, she decided to act like the problem is Carl's. That to me is as big of an issue as the original lie.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

In her mind -she didn't do anything so horrible, she loves her husband and didn't really hurt him

So? It doesn't matter what her intentions were, the damage is done.

That fact alone should have her tripping over her feet to apologize, not justifying it and turning it around on him and saying you should get tested since her little secret plan didn't work.


I agree with hoops (I need in on that group therapy discount) it is the LYING that would bother me the most and the fact that she had others in on her little conspiracy theory.

I don't know if I would ever get past my spouse lying about something this big. I would have an even harder time if my spouse absolutely refused to understand why I was so upset.

It sounds like from his posts Carl has used the D word in conversations with his wife yet she is STILL insisting she was totally justified.

To me that is really messed up and she needs to sort out what it is she really wants.


I recommend therapy like everyone else does. A LOT of therapy. I don't see this as being something you can work out alone, not with her stance on the matter. A neutral third party can help you decide what path you want to take.

[hoops902]

::And instead of apologizing profusely and trying to make amends, she decided to act like the problem is Carl's. That to me is as big of an issue as the original lie.::

I dunno, to me it sounds as if she's not necessarily taking the stance that it's "his problem" with the fertility, it's almost as if she thinks they're actually still arguing about the getting pregnant thing when it's really the lying thing. There's trying to deflect, and there's not grasping what the actual issue is.

[deantrip]

May 9, 2012 20:40:49 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

May 9, 2012 20:38:35 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

My name is Meghan, I'm 30, and I love gummi worms and bears.

But you are not a grown ass man so you're good!

I am a grown ass man, I like gummy bears and worms and I am proud of it, last year for my birthday, my wife bought me 5 huge gummy bears. Like 4 inch tall gummy bears, they were tasty! Back to on topic, best wishes to you Carl in this trying time!

[whoisjohngalt]

OK, I am done speculating on what she knew, didn't know, etc etc.

All I am saying is that to "me" intent matters. None of us are saints, although a few on this board seem to think that they are, and we all make mistakes and inadvertently hurt people that we love. So, yeah, if my DH did something that hurt me, you can be damn sure I would want to know what was behind it, bc nt my book it's much easier to forgive thoughtless action than malicious one.

Also, we seem to be very good around here at proclaiming that "I" would never..... well, the thing is, that what person thinks he will do and what he will actually do can be very very different things.

And a side, probably completely off topic note - if I were Carl's wife and EVER found out what kind of details he shares on the internet and how easy it would really be for someone to find us and me - let's just say that D word would be the VERY LEAST of his problems.

Lena

[lurkyloo]

So sharing details on a message board is out, but actively plotting to deceive your spouse on something as personal and important as when and whether to reproduce, and bringing your family in on a plot against your husband--that's all okay?

A mistake is one thing. Knowing that your spouse isn't ready to reproduce and trying to trick him/her into doing it anyway--while pretending to agree AND discussing it all with your family behind his/her back--that's not something I could forgive easily, or perhaps at all. Then again that's me and being manipulated is a hot-button topic for me.

Carl: Whatever you decide, the board will nitpick it to death, but support you wholly. In our own totally dysfunctional way.

[NastyWoman]

May 9, 2012 22:42:43 GMT -5 deantrip said:

May 9, 2012 20:40:49 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

But you are not a grown ass man so you're good!

I am a grown ass man, I like gummy bears and worms and I am proud of it, last year for my birthday, my wife bought me 5 huge gummy bears. Like 4 inch tall gummy bears, they were tasty!

All of you KEEP YOUR FINGERS OUT OF MY GUMMY BEARS.

Carl, there is not much left to be said but for you.

[qofcc]

Carl, you have every right to be upset, but you'd be crazy to consider divorcing her over this. You love her. 10 years into your relationship you still have passion - do you know how rare that is? She gives in to most of what you want eventually, has let you make her into the wife you want and she's agreed to turn her whole life upside down to concentrate on your career for the next however many years, living apart from you right now then giving up her friends and family and nice home to move to BFE where she won't fit in and you're going to be working crazy hours and when she does find a job and make friends and gets her home the way she likes it, you're going to be transferred and she's going to have to start all over again.

And you've been agonizing about having a baby for a while now and going back and forth, trying and not trying, she must be going out of her mind with having what she wants within grasp then you taking it away again. Not once have I heard you say you don't want a baby or that you're not ready to be a father. You always say you want a baby but you're afraid you're not financially ready. I'm picturing you as a little kid up on the high dive wanting to jump in but afraid of getting hurt or the water might be cold and your wife standing behind you thinking how mad would he be if I just gave him a push because he wants it and will enjoy it when he's in?

This reminds me so much of when Dark was agonizing over how to pay for braces without cutting back on retirement or stretching out the payments over a longer period of time and it snowballed out of control and he nearly (totally unintentionally) drove Loop over the edge. Both of you have this thing about how you overcame your childhoods and now you're so proud of being better than your relatives and the people you grew up with and you're terrified of doing something that could be criticized as not the best thing financially.

Because as much as you worry about the timing not being perfect, your wife sees that you could make starting a family now work if you wanted to. Yes, she has a crazy amount of student loans, but income based repayment is based on income and family size and you'd still be able to make the minimum payments. And if she's going into a field where most of the employers will make her eligible for forgiving the balance after 10 years, paying as little as possible on the loans might be a better strategy than trying to pay off the loans. Her career is going to be on the slow track having to move every few years as you focus on your career. In the long run, having a baby while you make enough to get by without assistance but are not in your peak earning years makes a lot of sense.

Yes, I get that everyone is focusing on the lying and not whether or not her argument is right, but I think this falls into manipulating more than lying and people manipulate the ones they love all of the time with the best of intentions for making their lives better. She knew you well enough to know that you wouldn't be upset if she got pregnant. Her stupid mistake was telling other people about it.

[Miss Tequila]

"Her stupid mistake was telling other people about it. "

Her mistake was telling others? Not actually manipulating/deceiving him in the first place???

[Deleted]

Sorry, but i can' t go on to a message board and jump on the bandwagon and start calling the other spouse "manipulative" use that kind of inflammatory language pushing someone toward a divorce. We don't HER side either. He took a vow for "better or worse" not cut and run. Everyone has problems. You work through them. This isnt' the first time in history that a woman has tried to get pregnant. If she was deceiving him, of course she should apologize. But, turning this into a "you were so wronged how awful" and fueling the fires of long term resentment doesn't seem like it does Carl a service either. He can choose to forgive or not. If not, he should move on. But has he discussed it and what did she say?

[Miss Tequila]

"Sorry, but i can' t go on to a message board and jump on the bandwagon"

I said at least 10 pages back that I was staying out of it and only Carl could decide whether this is divorce worthy or not. Although I am not saying it is divorce-worthy or not, I am saying it was manipulative and deceitful. I don't care what her intentions were, she intentionally lied to him in hopes of getting pregnant against his wishes. Whether they stay married or not, they need to work through that and have her understand that it is not ok to act like a spoiled brat...I want what I want so screw what's important to my husband?

But I dont' think anyone is doing Carl any justice by acting like this is not a big deal...it's a big f'n deal and something they need to face head on.

[Wizard of Id]

May 10, 2012 6:09:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

"Sorry, but i can' t go on to a message board and jump on the bandwagon"


But I dont' think anyone is doing Carl any justice by acting like this is not a big deal...it's a big f'n deal and something they need to face head on.

[Deleted]

okay, I will refrain from nitpicking at Mrs. C any more than I have because it really isn't helpful. But you all can't sit here and say that this level of deceit is not a big deal. It's not like she bought a new set of curtains even though he said the old ones are fine... it's a BABY, a life. It's something that will permanently change their lives, finances, and relationship. How people are just brushing it off and saying "oh, well they wanted a baby so what's the big deal" is blowing my mind.

qocc - sorry, I can't read your response without remembering your "any man is better than no man" philosophy.

[Miss Tequila]

Jen, exactly! Holy big decision....and for which Carl will be responsible for the next 18 years! I don't understand how that is no big deal...JFC, that's HUGE! Again, I'm not giving my opinion on divorce worthy because that is a personal decision...what's a deal breaker for me isn't a deal breaker for the next guy and I would never tell someone what they should or shouldn't do with their marriage.

[quotequeen]

May 10, 2012 6:05:29 GMT -5 @shooby said:

But has he discussed it and what did she say?

You keep claiming to read the posts and then you ask questions like this. He said that they discussed it and she continued to justify her actions.

[973beachbum]

I tried reading all 18 pages but I think I missed something. Everyone is talking about lying. To me lying about birth control would be me saying I am on somehting within my TOTOL control and him having trust in me on that and then secretly not doing what I said. Was Carl's wife supposed to be on birth control pills or an implant and secretly wan't? What i read was that they were using condoms and she got lazy/careless about how ofton they made sure they were used, because she didn't feel it was that big a deal if she got pregnant by her husband now.

What am I missing? I know a lot of guys and none of them who really doesn't want a kid ever forgets to wear a condom. It isn't like he didn't know when he wasn't wearing one. He could have said hey I really don't want us to have a baby now so on it goes.

I just think it is easy to say one person says he doesn't want kids now so that is it, but this isn't some bar hookup. These poeple have been married and one of them clearly wants a baby. Her wants and needs should also be as important in the marriage as his.

Turn it around and what would you say. If a woman was on here complaining that she had been married for almost ten years. He husband says he wants to have kids but keeps putting it off. What would the responses be?

I agree that in this case Carl you two need counseling. Fairness and trust are important in a marriage. You both need to feel like you can come to an agreement about what you want out of this marriage.

[Deleted]

Turn it around and what would you say. If a woman was on here complaining that she had been married for almost ten years. He husband says he wants to have kids but keeps putting it off. What would the responses be?

I'd say the same thing to her that I'm saying to Carl - you and your spouse need to have an honest discussion about how each of you feel about this situation. If you are too far apart in your thinking and this is a deal breaker for you, my next suggestion would be counseling. If that didn't help, I would suggest that splitting up may be for the best.

[Miss Tequila]

for Jen for expressing my thoughts much better than I ever could

[quotequeen]

May 10, 2012 7:07:26 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

I tried reading all 18 pages but I think I missed something. Everyone is talking about lying. To me lying about birth control would be me saying I am on somehting within my TOTOL control and him having trust in me on that and then secretly not doing what I said. Was Carl's wife supposed to be on birth control pills or an implant and secretly wan't? What i read was that they were using condoms and she got lazy/careless about how ofton they made sure they were used, because she didn't feel it was that big a deal if she got pregnant by her husband now.

What am I missing? I know a lot of guys and none of them who really doesn't want a kid ever forgets to wear a condom. It isn't like he didn't know when he wasn't wearing one. He could have said hey I really don't want us to have a baby now so on it goes.

You may agree or disagree with their methods but the fact is that they had reached an agreement. They both said they would wait to have kids until they were in a more stable situation and that the way they would accomplish that (apparently because Mrs. C can't physically handle the pill and doesn't like condoms) is that she would track when she's ovulating and they would use condoms then but not in the "safe period." You might not think that's effective or what you would do, but that's what they decided to do, and she agreed to it. She lied about when she was ovulating in a deliberate attempt to trick him into an "oops" baby.

[wvugurl26]

They haven't been married for ten years either. Together for ten years but not married that long. Having a kid is a big deal and timing of kids is not a decision to be made by one spouse. And you know if the wife was on here saying that and said she had $100k in student loans, YM would rip her to pieces for thinking about having a baby and being a SAHM with that kind of debt load.

Whatever our opinions are on the method, they agreed on how they would handle birth control. Then she purposely told him she wasn't fertile when she was. That is lying.

What she did was a big deal to caiwau and she can't or won't see that. Hopefully a good counselor can help them work through it.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 6:09:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

But I dont' think anyone is doing Carl any justice by acting like this is not a big deal...it's a big f'n deal and something they need to face head on.

I am the only one doing Cawaiu any justice...

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 7:28:23 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

May 10, 2012 6:09:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

But I dont' think anyone is doing Carl any justice by acting like this is not a big deal...it's a big f'n deal and something they need to face head on.

I am the only one doing Cawaiu any justice...

by offering to be his sugar daddy?

[973beachbum]

May 10, 2012 7:11:45 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

Turn it around and what would you say. If a woman was on here complaining that she had been married for almost ten years. He husband says he wants to have kids but keeps putting it off. What would the responses be?

I'd say the same thing to her that I'm saying to Carl - you and your spouse need to have an honest discussion about how each of you feel about this situation. If you are too far apart in your thinking and this is a deal breaker for you, my next suggestion would be counseling. If that didn't help, I would suggest that splitting up may be for the best.

I agree with this but that isn't what I read in the past 18 pages. What I saw was 18 pages of what an evil bitch she is and that once HE decided that they shouldn't have kids yet it was over.
Decideng together is way different from one person deciding and the other has to just live with it, which is exactly what people have been saying here.

As far as the SL's it was my understanding that she was working and paying them off herself. I know on YM no one is supposed to ever have SL's because everyone can just go to a CC that cost $400 a semester and work full time while finishing a year early. But in this case they got married with both knowing about the SL's didn't they?

I am not saying who is right in this case. I have no idea how the actual conversations went. All I am saying is that they need counseling so that both parties can come to an agreement about this together

[quotequeen]

May 10, 2012 7:38:44 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

May 10, 2012 7:11:45 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

I'd say the same thing to her that I'm saying to Carl - you and your spouse need to have an honest discussion about how each of you feel about this situation. If you are too far apart in your thinking and this is a deal breaker for you, my next suggestion would be counseling. If that didn't help, I would suggest that splitting up may be for the best.

I agree with this but that isn't what I read in the past 18 pages. What I saw was 18 pages of what an evil bitch she is and that once HE decided that they shouldn't have kids yet it was over.
Decideng together is way different from one person deciding and the other has to just live with it, which is exactly what people have been saying here.

As far as the SL's it was my understanding that she was working and paying them off herself. I know on YM no one is supposed to ever have SL's because everyone can just go to a CC that cost $400 a semester and work full time while finishing a year early. But in this case they got married with both knowing about the SL's didn't they?

He didn't just decide on his own that they shouldn't have kids yet. There have been 10 prior threads about the discussions they've had on that subject, and while Mrs. C always wanted to have kids sooner she claimed to understand and agree that it was better to wait.

As for the student loans, yes they both knew about them, and if she continues to work and pay them off that's fine. The issue is that in spite of her massive student loans what she really wants is to be a SAHM.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 7:32:39 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

May 10, 2012 7:28:23 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

I am the only one doing Cawaiu any justice...

by offering to be his sugar daddy?

That's only the icing on the cake.

[NoNamePerson]

Ok, since we don't need to offer advice, I will go back to the line in my first post to answer the subject line:

How expensive can a divorce be

Depends on who has the best attorney.