How expensive can a divorce be

[hoops902]

May 9, 2012 16:42:51 GMT -5 swamp said:

If you're going to every woman who deceives you, you're never going to be with anyone. And I don't think he has it in him to give up women completely.

Are you implying that women are inherently more deceitful than men?
If you are in an intimate relationship, your partner will deceive you at some point, male or female. Deceitfulness is not limited to one gender.

I'm implying that I think cawiau is only interested in women

[movingforward]

"If you're going to every woman who deceives you, you're never going to be with anyone. And I don't think he has it in him to give up women completely."

So all women are deceitful and can't be trusted? Geez, stereotype much... I think you have been watching too much Real Housewives of Orange County or something

[muttleynfelix]

May 9, 2012 16:52:23 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

How did Carl manage to get this far in his life with out our help?

I'm pretty sure he was only 21 when he joined the old YM. So, he's had YM's help for quite a while now.

[swamp]

May 9, 2012 16:53:23 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

May 9, 2012 16:42:51 GMT -5 swamp said:

Are you implying that women are inherently more deceitful than men?
If you are in an intimate relationship, your partner will deceive you at some point, male or female. Deceitfulness is not limited to one gender.

I'm implying that I think cawiau is only interested in women

Gotcha. Your post could have been interpreted either way.

[Firebird]

I bet she felt trapped between a rock and a hard place. She knew that financially, waiting was smart. But waiting sucks and there is a lot of merit to the idea of "if you always wait until you are 'ready', you'll never actually DO anything". Add in family pressure, and its no wonder she cracked.

There's something to this... but she is a grown fucking woman. I know how badly it sucks to want a baby. DH and I threw caution to the wind way ahead of our previously agreed upon schedule because we just couldn't stand to wait any longer. Your spouse's opinion is the only one besides your own that should matter when you make childbearing decisions.

Yes, different cultures and pressure... okay. I acknowledge I probably can't understand what that feels like. But there does come a point where you have to be an adult and take responsibility for your own life. Is her family going to help financially support the child? Are they going to pay off her student loans? If not, then who the fuck cares when they want them to conceive? And even if they are, your spouse's opinion on the subject still comes first.

I do have to wonder whether she considered what would have happened if you'd reacted poorly to an oops baby. Then she'd have the additional guilt of knowing she caused a bad situation through deception.

Good point. Somehow I doubt that ever crossed her mind.

[hoops902]

::That actually came out during the argument and her reasoning on how getting pregnant would make everything easy.
A) she could quit her job and move
B) stay at home for a year or so
C) wouldn't have to deal with moving in with my mom or job hunt.::

As hard as it is to steer the conversation away, the argument needs to be about being lied to, and not about whether having a baby is a good thing or a bad thing. She can have all those feelings, and she can make all those points, and even if you decide "you're right, it's the right time to have a child", that doesn't negate the lying. Don't engage in a "is a baby the right thing" argument, it's one she's not going to give in on, and it's really not the issue. The issue is the lying, and lying "should" be a cut and dried issue...discussions about babies and timing, etc is not.

[hoops902]

"So all women are deceitful and can't be trusted?"

Ummm yes, are you claiming there's one who's never deceived anyone?

[Firebird]

If you're going to every woman who deceives you, you're never going to be with anyone. And I don't think he has it in him to give up women completely.

Come on, hoops, what happened to your stance on defending the absent party?

I think Carl's wife is a scheming, manipulative liar. Anyone who would do such a thing to his or her spouse is lower than low. But all women do not lie, and all liars are not women.

[Deleted]

May 9, 2012 16:52:23 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

How did Carl manage to get this far in his life with out our help?

How did any of us, for that matter?

I mean seriously... Dark, you are a 30 year old man. Grown ass men don't eat gummy bears UNLESS they have liquor in them. People are on to you.

[Firebird]

Ummm yes, are you claiming there's one person who's never deceived anyone?

Fixed for you.

[quotequeen]

May 9, 2012 16:29:12 GMT -5 Firebird said:

It doesn't make sense if they were combining the condoms with not having sex when she is ovulating. She went to her doctor to find out why her scheme hadn't worked yet - she wouldn't be surprised by that if they were still using condoms every time.

Actually it makes perfect sense. If she knew she was ovulating and told him she wasn't so that he wouldn't use a condom, then there should be nothing standing in the way of her getting pregnant.

If I understand the speculation/recollection from past threads properly, they weren't abstaining during the fertile period - they were simply using condoms, which is a reasonably sound approach to NFP (it's obviously safer to abstain altogether during the fertile period, but using condoms is okay).

So if he thought she wasn't fertile, there would be no need to use a condom.

I think you misread my post. The thing I was saying didn't make sense was Dark's belief that they were using condoms every time, and not having sex at all during ovulation.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I mean seriously... Dark, you are a 30 year old man. Grown ass men don't eat gummy bears UNLESS they have liquor in them. People are on to you.

Nuh uh. I work with IT nerds. Every other cubicle in this joint has junk food, candy, and soda on it.

[Opti]

May 9, 2012 17:01:02 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

"So all women are deceitful and can't be trusted?"

Ummm yes, are you claiming there's one who's never deceived anyone?

Deceived anyone in their life ever though is different from having deceived their partner. I have lied a couple times in my life past the age of twelve that I remember. I couldn't come up with an example of deceiving my Ex or my serious xBF even white lie kind of things.

I think all kids learn to lie and least play with it for awhile. After that it depends, I think I have quite a few people in my life I've never had to use white lies with. On the other hand, at work ... it might be
necessary to stroke someone's ego or play nice.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I couldn't come up with an example of deceiving my Ex or my serious xBF even white lie kind of things.

Wow. Really? You're a way better person than I am. I definitely tell the occasional white lie to my spouse, or lie through omission. When it's something small, and the truth will be hurtful, honesty is over-rated.

[Deleted]

No Dark, you're just a douchebag.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Oh, right.

[movingforward]

May 9, 2012 17:01:02 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

"So all women are deceitful and can't be trusted?"

Ummm yes, are you claiming there's one who's never deceived anyone?

Damn, I knew I shouldn't have made that statement once that size doesn't matter. Now I have been lumped into the deceitful women category.

[Opti]

May 9, 2012 17:12:36 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I couldn't come up with an example of deceiving my Ex or my serious xBF even white lie kind of things.

Wow. Really? You're a way better person than I am. I definitely tell the occasional white lie to my spouse, or lie through omission. When it's something small, and the truth will be hurtful, honesty is over-rated.

Way better?
I didn't say I answered any questions designed to trap me, though not sure how often they would have come up.

I probably did lie through omission while dating in college but it was
one of those things were I didn't feel reporting what others said about him in this particular instance was wise. I expected they didn't have the guts to say it to his face and it would become history soon enough. So perhaps guilty of lie of omission once in a blue moon.
Are you happy now?


I guess part of it is only one white lie a partner told me I ever agreed with in retrospect and it took me weeks to get there so I'd rather hear the diplomatic truth or nothing at all.

[Deleted]

Ok folks...

I browsed some of the posts and will try to answer some questions:

- birth control: we have been together for 9 years during which my wife went on the birth control pill 3-4 times and always had side affects. So we went with condoms but my wife doesn't like condoms, yep it is not the guy this time. So we've been using them only when we needed to, she has been keeping tract of when to and when not too and yes foolish me I took her word on it.

- she is right in the sense that yea if she has gotten pregnant right now I would probably would have been perfectly ok with it and happy about it. Her question: why am I pissed just because she might have edge the bets? Because to me it is just so wrong and deceiving; just the idea she is capable of that pisses me off.

- her thing is she did not actively try to get pregnant, she just wasn't as diligent about it... Like leave it to chance, if it happens it happens. Yes but I would have appreciated being kept in the loop.

- now she is trying to change the subject into maybe I should see a doctor because she wasn't able to get pregnant so maybe I have fertility problems. "WTF? I am not trying to fucking knock you up" was my reaction.

- and my favorite: so you don't want to have kids with me, is that what you are saying. No, right now I don't want to have kids with anyone, period.

- the cousin that is pregnant now is the one that got married a day after us, have two other kids, works for $11/hour, still leaves at home, her dead beat husband can barely hold down a job and he has been trying to quit marijuana for 2 years now. Yeah I will take my cue for having babies from her.

- I love her, I truly do but this woman just drive me nuts at time. She sees nothing wrong with what she did and don't see why I am pissed about it. Her response: you don't trust me ok. We can go back to 100% condoms and I promise to never ask you to have sex without a condom anymore.

Problem solved in her mind. She did nothing wrong and what's the big deal: it's not like we are not married or we don't want kids.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Problem solved in her mind. She did nothing wrong and what's the big deal: it's not like we are not married or we don't want kids.

Wow...

I'm not even sure what to say to that. Counseling I guess, lots of counseling.

[muttleynfelix]

That stinks Carl. Really really stinks. I think the two of you would benefit from a neutral third party to figure out where to go from here. Good Luck.

And to address the fertility thing (that doesn't need to be addressed, just more info) unless you have been actively trying for a year, at 27 and no previous history of issues, I kind of doubt on OB would see her about fertility issues. Let alone you. It took us 5 months of trying for #2 and it was active trying. Nothing was wrong and I knew nothing was wrong, just had some timing issues (that were obvious). With you guys living apart timing would probably be the main issue. It sucks that she is hung up on that.

[Works4me]

Ummm - most likey nothing will change as she sees nothing wrong with her behavior. IMHO you have to decide if this behavior is something you can deal with because it will be repeated. My heart goes out to you. Just remember that without significant effort people do not change.

ETA - I am a woman and I too do not like the way condoms feel plus sometimes they make me itch. However they can be a necessary evil. Might try the non-latex.

[hoops902]

::- and my favorite: so you don't want to have kids with me, is that what you are saying. No, right now I don't want to have kids with anyone, period.::

Put it back on her. "Honey, before we're ready to have kids we need to have a strong enough relationship that we aren't lying to one another about major life-altering decisions."

[hoops902]

::Come on, hoops, what happened to your stance on defending the absent party? ::

I thought my post about him not really taking full precautions when it came to kids and how he shouldn't really be upset about the baby thing but only about the lying was pretty far toward her side compared to what most are posting about her.

[Firebird]

I think you misread my post. The thing I was saying didn't make sense was Dark's belief that they were using condoms every time, and not having sex at all during ovulation.

Gotcha. Sorry QQ.

[Firebird]

- I love her, I truly do but this woman just drive me nuts at time. She sees nothing wrong with what she did and don't see why I am pissed about it. Her response: you don't trust me ok. We can go back to 100% condoms and I promise to never ask you to have sex without a condom anymore.

Problem solved in her mind. She did nothing wrong and what's the big deal: it's not like we are not married or we don't want kids.

Jesus. So much for not taking sides. This is ridiculous.

Yes, counseling could help her to understand why this would be an issue (assuming she WANTS to understand). But Carl, didn't you say she wasn't contesting the divorce? Did you guys discuss that in the heat of anger and now she thinks you didn't really mean it?

Because if she thinks divorce is imminent, sex with you shouldn't really be on the radar right now. Condom or no condom.

[Firebird]

And on that note - does she fully realize that you either are or were ready to DIVORCE her over this? You'd think that would make her sit up and take notice that hey, maybe she did something pretty fucking wrong here.

Let's say you go to a party and exchange a drunken kiss with a coworker and your spouse later finds out about it. You don't think it was that big a deal - you were drunk, it's not like you were trying to cheat, you still love the person and you didn't really DO anything, so you really did nothing wrong. But your spouse sees it differently and is suddenly threatening to divorce you. Wouldn't that make you perhaps take a closer look at your behavior and try to see it from his/her side rather than continuing to assume you did nothing wrong?

Or maybe not. Maybe you'd just think they were overreacting and they'd cool off. I suppose Mrs. C could be thinking that way.

[Deleted]

May 9, 2012 18:05:35 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

::- and my favorite: so you don't want to have kids with me, is that what you are saying. No, right now I don't want to have kids with anyone, period.::

Put it back on her. "Honey, before we're ready to have kids we need to have a strong enough relationship that we aren't lying to one another about major life-altering decisions."

[Firebird]

Put it back on her. "Honey, before we're ready to have kids we need to have a strong enough relationship that we aren't lying to one another about major life-altering decisions."

If she doesn't understand that what she did was deceptive, that argument will fall flat. He might as well say to her, "Honey, before we're ready to have kids you need to learn what kind of toppings I like on my pizza." It will be meaningless to her if she doesn't yet understand that she did something wrong.

[quince]

Cawiau, I really loved your posts when you were happy and excited, and full of hope for the future, and moving toward meeting all of your goals. I'm so very sorry that this has happened in your life.

That she thinks she did nothing wrong, or that it was no big deal, I can see as one of the hardest things to get over. Suggesting you get tested and trying to turn the whole thing around on you is like a punch in the stomach.

I have no idea what you're going through, and I wish you the best in getting through it.