How expensive can a divorce be

[Works4me]

Good point on breakage. However breakage can be minimized by using high quality condoms in the correct size and making sure there is adequate lubrication. Spermicide is also a good thing to consider as are lubricated condoms.

LOL at self as I still use gender neutral terms. First time I gave this talk professionally I was 25 y/o and rather naive.

ETA - would vodka work for tampons or gummy bears?

[justme]

But do they still avoid blowing a BAC like the tampons are supposed to? I thought that was the whole point for those that do that.

[swamp]

May 9, 2012 16:13:21 GMT -5 imawino said:

May 9, 2012 16:09:49 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Ladies use bourbon

I don't know....gin gives a nice fresh pine scent.

and the accompanying chilled limes are a delight.

[swamp]

May 9, 2012 16:15:26 GMT -5 Works4me said:

Good point on breakage. However breakage can be minimized by using high quality condoms in the correct size and making sure there is adequate lubrication. Spermicide is also a good thing to consider as are lubricated condoms.

LOL at self as I still use gender neutral terms. First time I gave this talk professionally I was 25 y/o and rather naive.

well, you don't want to offend women with penises.

[Miss Tequila]

"is way less of a pain in the ass"

But the pain is part of the thrill

[Miss Tequila]

well, you don't want to offend women with penises"

Or men with no balls....notthatthereisantyhingwrongwiththat WWBG :-p

[muttleynfelix]

Yeah, I get that. But my point is if you are truly serious about not wanting a kid you don't go protection free at all. I learned in middle school sex ed that the rhythm method is not reliable

.

A little late to the party, but if they were using NFP then it is something like 98% at predicting ovulation. It isn't the ryhthm method where you just count the days. It is when you chart your body temperature (among other things). But you have to take your temp every single day first thing before you do anything for it to be accurate. There are lots of couples that succussfully don't have children by using condoms (or abstain) during the fertile days and nothing the rest of the time.

Carl - Best of luck to you. I'm sorry you have to go through this. It is a big deal if you think it is a big deal. A counsellor would be a good place to start to help you figure out what you want to do.

[Firebird]

I learned in middle school sex ed that the rhythm method is not reliable. And honestly, how do you live with someone and not know their cycle?

Tiny nitpick - tracking ovulation (or NFP) is NOT the same thing as the "rhythm method," which assumes that you ovulate at the same time every single month and is extremely unreliable.

If Carl believed that his wife was tracking her fertile periods, that's not at all the same thing as thinking that they were on the rhythm method. They're two different things.

ETA: Mutt beat me to it. NFP is remarkably reliable, provided you know what you're doing.

[Works4me]

Swamp - never worried about offending "women with penises."

[imawino]

May 9, 2012 16:22:22 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I learned in middle school sex ed that the rhythm method is not reliable. And honestly, how do you live with someone and not know their cycle?

Tiny nitpick - tracking ovulation (or NFP) is NOT the same thing as the "rhythm method," which assumes that you ovulate at the same time every single month and is extremely unreliable.

If Carl believed that his wife was tracking her fertile periods, that's not at all the same thing as thinking that they were on the rhythm method. They're two different things.

True enough. But I've not heard him say that. He said that she said (which is never a good way to hear things), that she wasn't ovulating. That's not really enough information to extrapolate that she said she took a reliable test and then told him she wasn't ovulating, although that could be the case. But in my opinion, if you are dead set on not having a kid you'd just put the condom on all the time regardless of whether you thought it was a peak time or not.

[8 Bit WWBG]

OK I'm all caught up. There is no easy answer here and cawiau is certainly going to be working through a lot of anger for a long time. He is going to have to weigh the merits of the different angles and decide what he wants to do. Here are my thoughts:

Over the years, many of DW's arguments center around her wants, logic be damned. I do recognize that people feel how they feel, and it doesn't matter that 100 other people would feel differently in that case. Your spouses feelings are what they are, and those are what you have to deal with it.

Any time you had sex without a condom, pregnancy was a possibility.

I can totally see how she felt you were sending mixed messages. The "fuck it, lets just risk it" was a BIG mixed message. I bet in her mind, she hoped that once it happened, you'd feel relieved because you didn't really want to keep to the timeline anyway. I bet she thought you'd be happy.

I also recall you saying she'd get depressed every time she found out she wasn't pregnant. This kind of sheds a whole new light on that.

I bet she felt trapped between a rock and a hard place. She knew that financially, waiting was smart. But waiting sucks and there is a lot of merit to the idea of "if you always wait until you are 'ready', you'll never actually DO anything". Add in family pressure, and its no wonder she cracked.

I do have to wonder whether she considered what would have happened if you'd reacted poorly to an oops baby. Then she'd have the additional guilt of knowing she caused a bad situation through deception.

All the questions about whether your wife feels like her feelings were overruled by you are valid questions, and should be addressed in counseling. She manifested her resistance in a really immature way, but obviously the issue was still a big one for her.

I wonder if she figures that now, her timeline for having kids is going to be WAY postponed. Even if you split quickly, she is looking at at least another two years. Had she kept to the timeline, all would have been well.

Dark makes a good point that some crap like this needs to be taken to the grave. I'm sure at some point, all of us will do something that we feel completely justified in, but that our spouses would hate.

No easy answers sir... best of luck.

[Firebird]

It doesn't make sense if they were combining the condoms with not having sex when she is ovulating. She went to her doctor to find out why her scheme hadn't worked yet - she wouldn't be surprised by that if they were still using condoms every time.

Actually it makes perfect sense. If she knew she was ovulating and told him she wasn't so that he wouldn't use a condom, then there should be nothing standing in the way of her getting pregnant.

If I understand the speculation/recollection from past threads properly, they weren't abstaining during the fertile period - they were simply using condoms, which is a reasonably sound approach to NFP (it's obviously safer to abstain altogether during the fertile period, but using condoms is okay).

So if he thought she wasn't fertile, there would be no need to use a condom.

[Firebird]

But in my opinion, if you are dead set on not having a kid you'd just put the condom on all the time regardless of whether you thought it was a peak time or not.

I agree. But like I said, there's a difference between using iffy birth control with both spouses knowing how iffy it is and being okay with an accident and using iffy birth control improperly on purpose without your spouse's knowledge to increase the chances of an accident.

[kindthatjingles]

May 9, 2012 16:31:20 GMT -5 Firebird said:

But in my opinion, if you are dead set on not having a kid you'd just put the condom on all the time regardless of whether you thought it was a peak time or not.

I agree. But like I said, there's a difference between using iffy birth control with both spouses knowing how iffy it is and being okay with an accident and using iffy birth control improperly on purpose without your spouse's knowledge to increase the chances of an accident.

so much... With my second we were tryign to wait until after we went on a cruise taht was 2 months away so we tried to avoid the hot button days.. Didnt work.. Morning sickness and rough seas

[Angel!]

May 9, 2012 16:17:44 GMT -5 justme said:

But do they still avoid blowing a BAC like the tampons are supposed to? I thought that was the whole point for those that do that.

I'm pretty sure that is a myth. You can measure bac with a breathalyzer because a % of alcohol in the blood is excreted through the lungs & will be found in your breath.

[Firebird]

You want to flip the script? Get snipped without her knowing and then tell her you want to start trying really hard to have kids and she can stop working when she gets pregnant. Sit back and enjoy the ride while it lasts.

I actually saw a PostSecret about this once. Guy didn't want kids so he had a secret vasectomy and let his wife think that they were trying so he could get frequent action without worrying about the consequences.

I think that's equally disgusting. Totally deserved karma, yes, but still not okay.

[justme]

May 9, 2012 16:33:03 GMT -5 Angel! said:

May 9, 2012 16:17:44 GMT -5 justme said:

But do they still avoid blowing a BAC like the tampons are supposed to? I thought that was the whole point for those that do that.

I'm pretty sure that is a myth. You can measure bac with a breathalyzer because a % of alcohol in the blood is excreted through the lungs & will be found in your breath.

Damn. The interwebs lied to me.

[kindthatjingles]

May 9, 2012 16:34:15 GMT -5 Firebird said:

You want to flip the script? Get snipped without her knowing and then tell her you want to start trying really hard to have kids and she can stop working when she gets pregnant. Sit back and enjoy the ride while it lasts.

I actually saw a PostSecret about this once. Guy didn't want kids so he had a secret vasectomy and let his wife think that they were trying so he could get frequent action without worrying about the consequences.

I think that's equally disgusting. Totally deserved karma, yes, but still not okay.

I think it is disgusting too. The only r/l situation I know of the wife pulled the ooops twice. He did it, came home and told her he did it. They divorced a couple years later. Neither one trusted the other

[hoops902]

I'm not saying he should or shouldn't...but I don't think he will get a divorce and here's why:

If you're going to every woman who deceives you, you're never going to be with anyone. And I don't think he has it in him to give up women completely.

"So if he thought she wasn't fertile, there would be no need to use a condom. "

Sure there is, otherwise the rhythm method would be foolproof.

However you slice it, he was risking her getting pregnant, and he was willing to risk it. She shouldn't have lied to him, but he definitely didn't care enough about pregnancy to take full steps to prevent it from happening. And I do think there are 2 different possible levels of anger. 1 if you were so anti-having-kids that you took all the necessary precautions, however this is not where they were. 2 is taking some precautions, being reckless because you are willing to risk a major life-altering event because "it feels better", in which case you can be mad about being lied to, but you weren't exactly as concerned about having the kids as you feign to be after you find out about the lying. It's easy to be outraged after the fact, but the fact is that neither of them were really doing what they needed to in order ot prevent pregnancy. There's a level of anger to be had, I just don't think it's the massive outrage you could expect if you were really taking the precautions you should have been.

I say be mad, be mad about the lying. But give up the "what if she got pregnant" thought process. Because it's not as if you were staunchly in one corner and made your intentions clear in both word and action.

[Deleted]

LMAO at the alcohol tampons!

[swamp]

If you're going to every woman who deceives you, you're never going to be with anyone. And I don't think he has it in him to give up women completely.

Are you implying that women are inherently more deceitful than men?
If you are in an intimate relationship, your partner will deceive you at some point, male or female. Deceitfulness is not limited to one gender.

[Deleted]

May 9, 2012 16:42:51 GMT -5 swamp said:

If you're going to every woman who deceives you, you're never going to be with anyone. And I don't think he has it in him to give up women completely.

Are you implying that women are inherently more deceitful than men?
If you are in an intimate relationship, your partner will deceive you at some point, male or female. Deceitfulness is not limited to one gender.

I have not done this to my spouse in 14 years of marriage.

[kindthatjingles]

To say that every partner is deceitful is crap.

not everyone feels the need to lie and toy with other people's emotions.

[Deleted]

Some conditions like endometriosis can make periods excruciatingly painful and make it more difficult to get pregnant. Maybe going to a fertility doc will ease her mind.

[swamp]

May 9, 2012 16:46:11 GMT -5 @mmc said:

May 9, 2012 16:42:51 GMT -5 swamp said:

Are you implying that women are inherently more deceitful than men?
If you are in an intimate relationship, your partner will deceive you at some point, male or female. Deceitfulness is not limited to one gender.

I have not done this to my spouse in 14 years of marriage.

You've never said, "oh, no honey, that dress doesn't make your butt look big" or "your hair looks great" or "dinner was awesome"?

[swamp]

May 9, 2012 16:46:49 GMT -5 kindthatjingles said:

To say that every partner is deceitful is crap.

not everyone feels the need to lie and toy with other people's emotions.

Maybe we're using a different definition of deceitful. I'm talking about lying in general. Of course I've lied to my husband about stupid stuff because I dn't want to hurt his feelings.

I've never deceived him about anything major, and I wouldn't.

[kindthatjingles]

May 9, 2012 16:48:25 GMT -5 swamp said:

May 9, 2012 16:46:11 GMT -5 @mmc said:

I have not done this to my spouse in 14 years of marriage.

You've never said, "oh, no honey, that dress doesn't make your butt look big" or "your hair looks great" or "dinner was awesome"?

I get the reference... But I just don't weigh that shirt is ugly and
I am off the pill hoping to get pregnant the same on the deceit scale

[muttleynfelix]

Sure there is, otherwise the rhythm method would be foolproof.

Are we talking Ryhthm method or NFP because there is a huge difference? If they were using NFP (or he thought they were), it is something like 98% effective used correctly.

[kindthatjingles]

May 9, 2012 16:49:50 GMT -5 swamp said:

May 9, 2012 16:46:49 GMT -5 kindthatjingles said:

To say that every partner is deceitful is crap.

not everyone feels the need to lie and toy with other people's emotions.

Maybe we're using a different definition of deceitful. I'm talking about lying in general. Of course I've lied to my husband about stupid stuff because I dn't want to hurt his feelings.

I've never deceived him about anything major, and I wouldn't.

we were typing at the same time.

[swamp]

May 9, 2012 16:50:24 GMT -5 kindthatjingles said:

May 9, 2012 16:48:25 GMT -5 swamp said:

You've never said, "oh, no honey, that dress doesn't make your butt look big" or "your hair looks great" or "dinner was awesome"?

I get the reference... But I just don't weigh that shirt is ugly and
I am off the pill hoping to get pregnant the same on the deceit scale

I don't either.

I will happily tell my husband that dinner was great and I appreciate him cooking, even though it tasted like dog food. I would tell him if I was trying to get pregnant, though.