College Grads Un- Under- Employed

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 14:02:01 GMT -5 The J said:

Apr 24, 2012 13:47:59 GMT -5 swamp said:

It does, but at a certain point, the firm has to have lawyers because the paralegals can't appear in court or sign the documents. I'm not willing to risk my law license by signing off on something that I did not supervise and review the preparation of it.

Psst....swamp....you're agreeing with Zib.

Zib is saying that if you can hire a paralegal for $x and a lawyer for $x, you should hire the lawyer. Since right now you can do that, it's foolish to become a paralegal, because you'll lose out on the job to an attorney.

I do agree with her to a point, but at some point, the law firm is going to have to break down and hire attys because paralegals can't do everything a lawyer does

[formerroomate99]

Apr 24, 2012 12:56:40 GMT -5 midjd said:

And if my kid is making a career choice that will result in poverty

How do you KNOW this, though? Milee is right that you need to weigh your odds and the ROI of specific degrees - but I don't think anyone can say that a degree in English, for instance, will unequivocally "result in poverty."

.

Yes, but a degree in English probably won't do someone much good if they aren't a high energy 'go getter' and good at networking. And if they are that type of person, then they can get the degree just fine without my help and letting them struggle more in college will be good training for what they'll have to deal with in their careers.

And if one of my sons decided to major in something really unmarketable, like Art or Theater, then I'd suggest that they get a trade first, something that lends itself well to part time work and where they'd get benefits. It isn't that I dont' want them to be an artist. I just don't want them to graduate with crushing student loan debt and then suffer years working low paying jobs with no benefits while they are perfecting their craft. Considering my and DH's health profile, haivng one of our kids working jobs with no benefits after college scares the crap out of me.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

To become a pharmacist, you now need a Doctorate of Pharmacy. There are some schools that offer a 6 year combined program (Bachelors + pharm.D.) but most don't (For most schools, you apply after completing your pre-requisite courses at a 4 year institution. A good number of these schools DO NOT require that you have a bachelors (although getting in without one is very rare). For people who do this, you will end up with a doctorate without every having a bachelors. Most people just do the pre-reqs while getting a bachelors and then apply, meaning that they will do 7-8 years of college (Pharm school will be 3-4 years itself).

This change has happened in the past 10-15 years so the older pharmacists have a bachelors degree and are R.ph (Registered pharmacists) vs Pharm.Ds (Doctor of Pharmacists)

[The J]

Apr 24, 2012 14:04:14 GMT -5 swamp said:

Apr 24, 2012 14:02:01 GMT -5 The J said:

Psst....swamp....you're agreeing with Zib.

Zib is saying that if you can hire a paralegal for $x and a lawyer for $x, you should hire the lawyer. Since right now you can do that, it's foolish to become a paralegal, because you'll lose out on the job to an attorney.

I do agree with her to a point, but at some point, the law firm is going to have to break down and hire attys because paralegals can't do everything a lawyer does

Where is the "going over your head" emoticon?

Zib is saying that you don't get to that point because you're hiring the attorneys at paralegal wages. Zib is saying that you don't have to hire paralegals because you can hire attorneys from the get-go at ridiculously low wages.

[thyme4change]

I know several unemployed engineers.

[Deleted]

On the other hand, there is a difference between having the job you want and having the life you want.

Teachers are getting laid off left and right in my state. There are twice as many credentialed teachers here as there are teaching positions. A friend of a friend has a MA in physics, as well as a teaching degree, and was laid off because of seniority. Instead the P.E. teacher is teaching her physics and chemistry classes. While it's nice to have smart teachers the system doesn't seem to encourage it.

Part of the issue is where jobs are located too. You may be able to find a position in your field but have to be willing to move to the middle of nowhere.

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 14:46:12 GMT -5 The J said:

Apr 24, 2012 14:04:14 GMT -5 swamp said:

I do agree with her to a point, but at some point, the law firm is going to have to break down and hire attys because paralegals can't do everything a lawyer does

Where is the "going over your head" emoticon?

Zib is saying that you don't get to that point because you're hiring the attorneys at paralegal wages. Zib is saying that you don't have to hire paralegals because you can hire attorneys from the get-go at ridiculously low wages.

And eventually those paralegal lawyers are going to learn what they need to know and bail from the guys lowball ing them. It ends up being expensive door the firm because they have to keep retraining It'll all work out.

[973beachbum]

Apr 24, 2012 14:49:04 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I know several unemployed engineers.

I know a whole lot more than several. I also know a bunch who are working as substitute teachers and rod men for survey crews or construction inspectors. I think that qualifies as underemployed.

[Deleted]

Yes... but still EMployed... not many teacher grads working as rod men or construction inspectors is my guess...

[973beachbum]

Apr 24, 2012 15:51:23 GMT -5 oped said:

Yes... but still EMployed... not many teacher grads working as rod men or construction inspectors is my guess...

That's true and they are happy to be employed. But it is dissappointing to have the degree that is universally agreed upon as recession proof and be reduced to a $10-$12 an hour rod man.

And a rod man is literally the guy who holds the rod for the survey crew. I am pretty sure a teacher can handle it.

[Opti]

Apr 24, 2012 9:25:21 GMT -5 oped said:

"and none of that impacts my original premise... That an engineering degree will I've her many ore options, including teaching, than a teaching degree alone would offer... "

I would love to know what these more options are speaking as a holder of two engineering degrees. I just spoke on the phone last night to a fellow Purdue engineering grad who is now a high school math teacher because of the dearth of jobs in his area "

Where are these options hmm... when the person you are talking about is doing exactly what i was suggesting... he had the OPTION of being a math teacher... didn't he ??

You always CAN underemploy. It is much more difficult, particularly in the current market, to over-employ... So if you 'over'-prepare... you will always have more options than if you 'under'-prepare...

oped, to me its not really a great option if it takes 2 more years of schooling to prepare for that. He thinks he needs more certs to be more marketable. I don't have two years of money laying around so to me its not that great of a possibility. He did say because of the current shortage and in his state there is a 10% allowance for non-certified teachers if I passed the appropriate Praxis II exams I might get a school system to take me.

If you know you want to teach and not at the college level getting a teaching degree is a shorter time in school and its likely a cheaper degree because of the lack of computers and other equipment required. But the question still remains unanswered by you. What are these options that would be open to an engineer that are better than options open to a degreed teacher? Teachers often can get jobs in corporate training, as tutors, etc. without extra training.

[movingforward]

Each decade there is the "recession proof" job which is basically a crock. There is no job that is "recession proof." When I graduated the big thing was to be a teacher. If you had a teaching certificate you would always have a job. These analyst act like things aren't going to change from one year to the next. What is a happening field today is out the window in a few years. Bottom line - just because you graduate with a degree in X doesn't mean in 10 years you won't be unemployed.

[Deleted]

Optimist.... You've indicated that an engineering degree requires a much higher level of coursework than a teacher prep program. It is easier to get a teaching degree... I wholeheartedly agree. Do you not see in the process of highly educating yourself, particularly in subjects like math and science, will open more doors and lead to more opprotunities than taking the less rigorous, lower level, easier, shorter program ?

But if that doesn't make sense to you, than ok. I'm really not interested in arguing it any more. I couldn't care less at this point what other people's kids have their degrees in, or how much other people spend on their kids college educations and/or how much allowance they give to their college kids...

[muttleynfelix]

Apr 24, 2012 15:51:23 GMT -5 oped said:

Yes... but still EMployed... not many teacher grads working as rod men or construction inspectors is my guess...

I was 12 the first time I was rod man for my dad. My brother was 10, I'm pretty sure an unemployed teacher can handle it assuming you can walk.

[973beachbum]

Apr 24, 2012 16:11:48 GMT -5 oped said:

Optimist.... You've indicated that an engineering degree requires a much higher level of coursework than a teacher prep program. It is easier to get a teaching degree... I wholeheartedly agree. Do you not see in the process of highly educating yourself, particularly in subjects like math and science, will open more doors and lead to more opprotunities than taking the less rigorous, lower level, easier, shorter program ?

But if that doesn't make sense to you, than ok. I'm really not interested in arguing it any more. I couldn't care less at this point what other people's kids have their degrees in, or how much other people spend on their kids college educations and/or how much allowance they give to their college kids...

I don't think she is arguing. Optimist is an engineer with a masters. She has been un/under employed for a while.

I really think she would love for you to be able to tell her something she can switch to without going back to school for 2 more years considering she probably has used up most of her savings just living for that time. That is something she can do with her degree that will pay more than a Mc Job.

[Opti]

Apr 24, 2012 16:19:50 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Apr 24, 2012 16:11:48 GMT -5 oped said:

Optimist.... You've indicated that an engineering degree requires a much higher level of coursework than a teacher prep program. It is easier to get a teaching degree... I wholeheartedly agree. Do you not see in the process of highly educating yourself, particularly in subjects like math and science, will open more doors and lead to more opprotunities than taking the less rigorous, lower level, easier, shorter program ?

But if that doesn't make sense to you, than ok. I'm really not interested in arguing it any more. I couldn't care less at this point what other people's kids have their degrees in, or how much other people spend on their kids college educations and/or how much allowance they give to their college kids...

I don't think she is arguing. Optimist is an engineer with a masters. She has been un/under employed for a while.

I really think she would love for you to be able to tell her something she can switch to without going back to school for 2 more years considering she probably has used up most of her savings just living for that time. That is something she can do with her degree that will pay more than a Mc Job.

Thanks Beach and well said. I think some of the younger folk are unaware of what is really out there depending on the discipline you ended up in. I can learn almost anything and actually have a great balance between right and left brain stuff. If you know of wise employers who want someone like this with a Ferrari brain(wicked fast) PM me.

I have friends with BS, MS, and PhD degrees from Purdue and other schools that I know from AT&T Bell Labs and other places. I'm not the only one who's hit the wall repeatedly. A friend had to go to his car repair and towing experience not too long ago before his retirement funds totally ran out. Less than 6 months into that job the owner of the gas station decided he wanted to reclaim his position of managing repairs and laid him off.

[formerroomate99]

If you know you want to teach and not at the college level getting a teaching degree is a shorter time in school and its likely a cheaper degree because of the lack of computers and other equipment required. But the question still remains unanswered by you. What are these options that would be open to an engineer that are better than options open to a degreed teacher? Teachers often can get jobs in corporate training, as tutors, etc. without extra training

I got a job programming in a language I've never heard of mainly because my STEM degree told my boss I had a 'math brain' that would be trainable. But I seriously doubt such a degree would help me get a job in sales or HR.
It all depends on what you talents are, your dispostion and what you want to do. For example, I'm not good with people and don't particularly crave human interaction, so I decided that a math/engineering type degree would be more useful to me than an English degree, even though I did very well in every english class I took and enjoyed the classes immensely. I had classmates in high school and college who had the same dispositon as me but pursued English degrees because they had been fed this fantasy that corporate america was desparate for people who know how to write. I have to wonder if the massive amount of debt they incurred for these degrees was worth the investment.

[formerroomate99]

I really think she would love for you to be able to tell her something she can switch to without going back to school for 2 more years considering she probably has used up most of her savings just living for that time. That is something she can do with her degree that will pay more than a Mc Job.

There's a lot of free or nearly free computer (and other) training available on the internet. Add in a couple of certifications, with her degree backing her up, and I could see her doing well.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry that came off snarky... It didn't evolve from snark, just tired... So optimist is the engineer and I'm the teacher... I guess experience could meet us somewhere in the middle....


And obviously I had no idea what a rod man was

[Deleted]

Optimist, are you tied to your area?

[muttleynfelix]

And obviously I had no idea what a rod man was

Oh but we love you anyway. It use to be a no brainer job as long as you follow directions, now you need a couple more brain cells (more technology to screw up), but not many. My company (only 4 full time and currently 2 part time) doesn't even hire rodmen. We have a robotics system and GPS. If we need 2 people in the field, our LS goes out with our crew chief or I will or my boss. Now that we are busy again we hired an a former employee on an as needed basis. It is a moderately physical job depending on the type of surveying you do.

[Opti]

Apr 24, 2012 16:40:34 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

If you know you want to teach and not at the college level getting a teaching degree is a shorter time in school and its likely a cheaper degree because of the lack of computers and other equipment required. But the question still remains unanswered by you. What are these options that would be open to an engineer that are better than options open to a degreed teacher? Teachers often can get jobs in corporate training, as tutors, etc. without extra training

I got a job programming in a language I've never heard of mainly because my STEM degree told my boss I had a 'math brain' that would be trainable. But I seriously doubt such a degree would help me get a job in sales or HR.
It all depends on what you talents are, your dispostion and what you want to do. For example, I'm not good with people and don't particularly crave human interaction, so I decided that a math/engineering type degree would be more useful to me than an English degree, even though I did very well in every english class I took and enjoyed the classes immensely.

Yes what you described often happens when individuals are fairly recent graduates or if the number of people who know that technology is pretty low. In my experience, its not that common of occurrence and often as you get older there are more caveats to that offer. You have demonstrated ability in a different but similar programming language working on similar projects but just need to learn this relatively new programming language.

In any event, do you believe you will get those kinds of offers when you are in your 40s, 50s, or 60s?

I did get the opportunity to get into the telecom expense mangement field for a few years for only a 50% cut in pay because I had experience in telecom from my years at AT&T. When the banks trashed the financial markets and currencies went wacky many of those telecom expense firms folded as most where funded by venture capital. The survivors laid off Americans and Canadians in favor of Indians on site possibly H1B Visas and Indian outsource firms. I've been working on getting into one of the survivors for more than two years. The lesser job I did initially supposedly they hired for "all the time". Only one hybrid client facing position came up in all this time and they declined to interview me as my former coworkers felt I had a back office personality per the recruiter. I think it was roughly 12 months ago.

[Phoenix84]

"Wouldn't surprise me. The employment rates for my class (09) and the 2010-2011 classes are abysmal, and I went to a pretty good school. Luckily there are other things you can do with a law degree, although the six figures in student loans for most graduates put a damper on the lower-paid professions..."

Midwest JD, just curious, do you work as a "real lawyer" or did you get one of those "other things you can do" with a law degree? Hope the question isn't offensive, I only use the quotations since that was the topic of your post, not trying to offend lawyers out there. Seems like half of what I post lately is offensive to someone.

[Deleted]

I see ee has a wonder woman vs cat woman thread going... Bet we could offend some people over there

[Phoenix84]

"Moderator!!!!"

LOL ironic as it may be, as often as I offend some people here, I've never once been banned or reprimanded by a moderator. Maybe I should start pushing the envelope?

[thyme4change]

ironic as it may be, as often as I offend some people here, I've never once been banned or reprimanded by a moderator.

I wear my banning with pride.

Thanks Archie!

[Opti]

Apr 24, 2012 16:54:13 GMT -5 oped said:

Optimist, are you tied to your area?

I would love to stay as this is where my friends and support system are but I am open to moving for the right situation. I may be bailing out to a LCOL area if needed as $10/hr. and below are section 8 housing territory here. Perusing the affordable housing website Yesterday I discovered very low income started somewhere around $12-14+/hr.

I'd prefer not to move as I will likely need to tap my retirement funds to do so.

[Opti]

Apr 24, 2012 17:16:40 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

"Moderator!!!!"

LOL ironic as it may be, as often as I offend some people here, I've never once been banned or reprimanded by a moderator. Maybe I should start pushing the envelope?

I think you should just lick the envelope and see if you get a paper cut.

[Opti]

Apr 24, 2012 17:05:13 GMT -5 @tbird said:

What's a back office personality? non-client contact?

Possibly no in person client contact just phone and email? Not entirely sure but it sounds like the hybrid position would be performing work for several clients at their site. Not sure if they thought I'd didn't present well in person in dress, personality, or what not. I got the info from the recruiter, not what questions they asked of my former colleagues nor their answers.

I don't have the stereotypical happy suck up to the client personality that sales folk are presumed to have. One of my references though had a client facing position and IMO was less pleasant in general than me. Perhaps he was better at the politics and phrasing statements. I'm OK and always improving but not at the same level as another former colleague who was also a reference.

Interestingly I get good reviews when I volunteer teach and an older salesman told me he thought I'd do well in sales. My thought is opinions and perceptions aren't necessarily true but there was no value in attempting to change the recruiters and probably the hiring manager's conclusions. Not a good start to get a job to imply or say I think you are wrong about my abilities and potentials. I adjust and change to my environment more than most people. Most people are unaware of that especially coworkers because they only see me in one job one setting.

[LovingandLiving]

I think you have to be able to sell yourself. I have a BS in Biology with a minor in Chemistry. My goal was to become a pharmicist but it was mind numbing work to me when I actually started working in a pharmacy in College. One summer my mom's friend had an employee who was going to be out on maternity leave for the summer so she hired me to fill in the HR office for her and I loved it.

When I started applying for jobs everyone said I would never stay because why would a Biology major CHOOSE this. My mom taught me to focus on applying at hospitals, clinics, VA, and other science related places and SELL MYSELF as an asset who understood the field on a practical level. Never lost another interview since.