College Grads Un- Under- Employed

[formerroomate99]

You know, I've always thought of college pretty much the same as getting a loan to start a new business. You need to have a plan that has a reasonable chance of bringing a good return on the investment. But nearly every time I bring up this idea, the accusations start flying.

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2012 11:43:26 GMT -5 @rj said:

LOL just think, he could be doing a study to make it better, who knows

My doc is a "she".

Ultimately, it's not important what you studied in college. What's important is that you don't sit on your rear end after that, and that you learn new things and stay current in your field. My college degree is 37 years old. My competence in my field now has very little to do with what I learned back then and everything to do with what I've learned in the meantime- on the job, actuarial exams, reading, thinking, taking classes. I doubt that my doctor uses what she learned in her Chem E. classes very much anymore.

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 12:42:38 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

You know, I've always thought of college pretty much the same as getting a loan to start a new business. You need to have a plan that has a reasonable chance of bringing a good return on the investment. But nearly every time I bring up this idea, the accusations start flying.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

[gs11rmb]

"This is my kid - I love him and will always think he's brilliant no matter what degree or career he chooses. If he wants to be an underwater basket weaver and can live within his means, I won't be critical of that - I'll be bragging about him. But I'm not sinking $200k into college for that. "

Why not? You were talking about return on investment. What return are you expecting to get, if your child becomes an engineer? Are you expecting him to pay back the money you spent? I believe parents should either pay for college or not but they should not be dictating the choice of major.

[formerroomate99]

Apr 24, 2012 12:44:42 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

"This is my kid - I love him and will always think he's brilliant no matter what degree or career he chooses. If he wants to be an underwater basket weaver and can live within his means, I won't be critical of that - I'll be bragging about him. But I'm not sinking $200k into college for that. "

Why not? You were talking about return on investment. What return are you expecting to get, if your child becomes an engineer? Are you expecting him to pay back the money you spent? I believe parents should either pay for college or not but they should not be dictating the choice of major.

When you accept someone else's money, you accept the strings that go with it. I wouldn't sink 200k into a party major either, not because I expect to get the money back, but because a kid with a useless major is much more likely to need financial help later on and also more likely to need help with a career change. And if my kid is making a career choice that will result in poverty, then I'm all for letting him get a taste of that poverty now rather than keeping him in a bubble that will burst when he graduates.

[milee]

Apr 24, 2012 12:44:42 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

"This is my kid - I love him and will always think he's brilliant no matter what degree or career he chooses. If he wants to be an underwater basket weaver and can live within his means, I won't be critical of that - I'll be bragging about him. But I'm not sinking $200k into college for that. "

Why not? You were talking about return on investment. What return are you expecting to get, if your child becomes an engineer? Are you expecting him to pay back the money you spent? I believe parents should either pay for college or not but they should not be dictating the choice of major.

I do look at it as an investment and that's the point. It's not a good investment if it doesn't have a reasonable chance of a decent return. If he wants to persue a career like underwater basket weaving, that's great, but I'm not investing big $$$ in that.

I'd rather keep that money for other things. For example, maybe one day he'll be so good at the baskets, he'll want to start a basket emporium. I'll have a little seed money to loan him if the business plan makes sense.

Bottom line, I will love and respect my children no matter what career and major they choose. Whether or not I will choose to pay $200k for them to get it is highly dependent on if I feel I will be paying to give them a degree/experience that will give them a decent return on the $200k or not. If I don't think they'll get a reasonable return on the $200k, then they need to figure out how to pay for it, because it's a dream, not an investment. Dreams are OK if you have the money for them.

[midjd]

And if my kid is making a career choice that will result in poverty

How do you KNOW this, though? Milee is right that you need to weigh your odds and the ROI of specific degrees - but I don't think anyone can say that a degree in English, for instance, will unequivocally "result in poverty."

The quoted sentence is a far cry from this: "You need to have a plan that has a reasonable chance of bringing a good return on the investment." None of us have a problem with the latter statement.

[zibazinski]

How many students who graduated with MARKETABLE degrees are unemployed?

[zibazinski]

Btw, they are still pushing paralegal degrees. If I can hire a lawyer for the same money as a paralegal, and I can, why would I hire a paralegal?

[midjd]

Who is "they"? Most of the colleges/universities around here don't even offer that as a course of study... seems to be limited to the University of Phoenix-type places.

[Deleted]

the great thing about "marketable" degrees is that the definition of what's marketable varies from year to year.

[zibazinski]

There are plenty of real colleges and real community colleges who offer that degree.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

the great thing about "marketable" degrees is that the definition of what's marketable varies from year to year.

nuh uh. It's only a marketable degree if YM says so.

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 13:23:23 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Btw, they are still pushing paralegal degrees. If I can hire a lawyer for the same money as a paralegal, and I can, why would I hire a paralegal?

Because a paralegal can't go to court or sign legal documents.

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 13:24:08 GMT -5 midjd said:

Who is "they"? Most of the colleges/universities around here don't even offer that as a course of study... seems to be limited to the University of Phoenix-type places.

A local state college offers a paralegal degree, but I have no idea how good the program is.

[zibazinski]

So does St. Petersburg College in Florida. I'm agreeing that it makes more sense monetarily for law firms to hire lawyers instead of paralegals. Get more bang for your buck! You need some sense when it comes to college. If there's a glut of lawyers, becoming a paralegal is stupid.

[midjd]

the great thing about "marketable" degrees is that the definition of what's marketable varies from year to year.

Exactly. 10 years ago, IT was the "in" degree - couldn't go wrong with an IT degree. Then it was teaching ("you're guaranteed a job!"), then nursing, now engineering, I guess? Whenever you (the societal "you") tell kids that their only chance of success is to get a degree in X, you're going to end up with a flooded market.

I had a good friend who graduated right around the time of the IT bust - he is making GREAT money now, but spent 3-4 years working at Rally's and selling used cars. I have several other friends who all got their teaching degrees between 2009 - 2011 and are still looking for work. My sister is going to nursing school - she says they are getting 4x - 5x more applicants for their program than they were when she started. Yes, we need nurses, but do we need 5x more nurses than we did 3 years ago?

[movingforward]

I have a friend who is an attorney and she told me that there are new lawyers who are employed as paralegals because they can't find jobs. I have no idea as I am not in the legal field. Is this true?

[midjd]

Yep.

(Speaking of which, I should really get back to work... )

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 13:42:29 GMT -5 midjd said:

the great thing about "marketable" degrees is that the definition of what's marketable varies from year to year.

Exactly. 10 years ago, IT was the "in" degree - couldn't go wrong with an IT degree. Then it was teaching ("you're guaranteed a job!"), then nursing, now engineering, I guess? Whenever you (the societal "you") tell kids that their only chance of success is to get a degree in X, you're going to end up with a flooded market.

I had a good friend who graduated right around the time of the IT bust - he is making GREAT money now, but spent 3-4 years working at Rally's and selling used cars. I have several other friends who all got their teaching degrees between 2009 - 2011 and are still looking for work. My sister is going to nursing school - she says they are getting 4x - 5x more applicants for their program than they were when she started. Yes, we need nurses, but do we need 5x more nurses than we did 3 years ago?

DH is a pharmacist, which was the degree du jour a few years ago. They are now churning out more pharmacists than they need, resulting in lowered wages and more job competition. DH also only has a Bachelors, and they now require a doctorate, which will further put him at a disadvantage in the job market in a few years.

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 13:39:01 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

So does St. Petersburg College in Florida. I'm agreeing that it makes more sense monetarily for law firms to hire lawyers instead of paralegals. Get more bang for your buck! You need some sense when it comes to college. If there's a glut of lawyers, becoming a paralegal is stupid.

It does, but at a certain point, the firm has to have lawyers because the paralegals can't appear in court or sign the documents. I'm not willing to risk my law license by signing off on something that I did not supervise and review the preparation of it.

[Deleted]

wait - your DH is a pharmacist with just a Bachelor's? My DH started out school in an accelerated PharmD program in 2001. It was a six year program. Obviously he didn't complete it.

ETA: I also had some friends who majored in Comp Sci who graduated with me in 2005. One of them still hadn't found a relevant job when I last heard about him about 2-3 years ago.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I think Swamp means they now want pharmacists to have a PharmD/PhD degree and not just a PharmD (which just requires completetion of an undergrad bachelor's degree).

[midjd]

Wait, wait - Jenny, would your friends count as people with marketable degrees who don't have jobs? These people actually exist? Say it ain't so!

(Seriously, someone in this thread or the other one posted the link to the DOL - the unemployment rates for STEM majors and non-STEM majors are within a few percentage points of each other. If STEM majors had a 5% unemployment rate and non-STEM majors had a 85% unemployment rate, there might be an argument that one type degree is "better" - but since that's not the case, and assuming we all agree that you should weigh the ROI of any degree, I'm not sure what the argument is...)

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 13:49:31 GMT -5 @moneyjenny82 said:

wait - your DH is a pharmacist with just a Bachelor's? My DH started out school in an accelerated PharmD program in 2001. It was a six year program. Obviously he didn't complete it.

He got a Bachelors in Biology in 2000 with the intent of going to med school. His MCAT score disagreed with that plan. He started a 3 year accelerated Pharm D program in the fall, and quickly switched to the Bachelors program when he realized that it would be the last year he could graduate with bachelors and still become a RPh, and that the only difference was the number of clinical orations he would have to do, thereby saving himself a years tuition and living expenses

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 13:52:31 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think Swamp means they now want pharmacists to have a PharmD/PhD degree and not just a PharmD (which just requires completetion of an undergrad bachelor's degree).

I have no idea how it works in other states, but in NY up to 2000 you could become a RPh with just a bachelors degree, but the program was a 5 year program. Anyone who enrolled in a pharmacy program after 2000 had to enroll in the 6 year doctorate program.

ETA. The doctorate program is a PharmD program, not A PhD program

[swamp]

Apr 24, 2012 13:54:14 GMT -5 midjd said:

Wait, wait - Jenny, would your friends count as people with marketable degrees who don't have jobs? These people actually exist? Say it ain't so!

(Seriously, someone in this thread or the other one posted the link to the DOL - the unemployment rates for STEM majors and non-STEM majors are within a few percentage points of each other. If STEM majors had a 5% unemployment rate and non-STEM majors had a 85% unemployment rate, there might be an argument that one type degree is "better" - but since that's not the case, and assuming we all agree that you should weigh the ROI of any degree, I'm not sure what the argument is...)

That the engineers and accountants are smarter than the rest of us

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2012 13:52:31 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think Swamp means they now want pharmacists to have a PharmD/PhD degree and not just a PharmD (which just requires completetion of an undergrad bachelor's degree).

I don't know about other states, but the PharmD program in NJ was 3 years for an accelerated Bachelor's degree, and the last 3 years were at the graduate level.

[The J]

Apr 24, 2012 13:47:59 GMT -5 swamp said:

Apr 24, 2012 13:39:01 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

So does St. Petersburg College in Florida. I'm agreeing that it makes more sense monetarily for law firms to hire lawyers instead of paralegals. Get more bang for your buck! You need some sense when it comes to college. If there's a glut of lawyers, becoming a paralegal is stupid.

It does, but at a certain point, the firm has to have lawyers because the paralegals can't appear in court or sign the documents. I'm not willing to risk my law license by signing off on something that I did not supervise and review the preparation of it.

Psst....swamp....you're agreeing with Zib.

Zib is saying that if you can hire a paralegal for $x and a lawyer for $x, you should hire the lawyer. Since right now you can do that, it's foolish to become a paralegal, because you'll lose out on the job to an attorney.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

PhD is different program. You can also get an MD/PhD.

Don't know about the pharmacy one but the MD requires doing your first two years of medical school, then do the PhD part which is doing research/writing a thesis, then you go back and complete your last two years of medical school.

I know one woman who did it and it took her about 8 years to finish school as opposed to four.

Some schools offer it but it has to be with special permission. Many don't grant it because it takes so long many students drop out and go for only one degree.