Big wedding when you're already married

[midjd]

I'm with you, FB - I just want to know. It's not rational, and maybe not right, and I don't "deserve" to know, I guess - but I still like to.

I think they should put "I JUST WANTED TO KNOW" on my tombstone. Really, that's how I feel about everything.

[Firebird]

I think they should put "I JUST WANTED TO KNOW" on my tombstone. Really, that's how I feel about everything.

Ditto. I know all kinds of things I don't have a right to know, and I like it. I'm nosy like that. But also a good secret keeper so it works out fine

I understand why people are saying they wouldn't care. But for me it makes a big difference whether the couple is actually getting married or just having some kind of commitment ceremony.

Legal marriage means something to me - a lot, actually. My brain kind of short-circuits at the idea of it being "just" a business arrangement. I could never have married DH just for benefits so it's hard for me to grasp that kind of thing. (Perhaps it's because I'm not religious that I do attach heavy significance to legal status - because if I weren't married legally, I wouldn't be married within any kind of religion, and to me that would mean I wasn't married at all.)

Like I said, none of this means that I'm not happy for the couple or that I wouldn't celebrate with them as if it were their real/first wedding. Deep down inside, I wouldn't consider it to be such, but that doesn't mean I'd have an "attitude" about it.

[Deleted]

I really don't want to know other people's business all that much. Less is more!

[Firebird]

I really don't want to know other people's business all that much. Less is more!

That's where you and I are different ;D I like to know any and all dirty little secrets.

[Deleted]

Really? Why?

[Firebird]

Because the better you get to know people, the more interesting they are.

[Sum Dum Gai]

But for me it makes a big difference whether the couple is actually getting married or just having some kind of commitment ceremony.

Um... a traditional, or real, marriage is a commitment ceremony. It's just the only one recognized by the government.

[midjd]

Really? Why?

Innate curiosity? I think some people have it and some don't. Nothing wrong either way.

It is helpful to have some of the back story if you have a job that involves dealing with a lot of people... most things that don't make sense on the surface become clear when you know the back story (X has a grudge against Y for something that happened 10 years ago, Z has been applying for jobs on the sly, etc.) Seems like in this field, there's a subtext to everything (especially since we're in a fairly small state and almost everyone has some connection to each other). So my innate nosiness is finally coming in handy

[Deleted]

Well, that is true for sure!

[Firebird]

Um... a traditional, or real, marriage is a commitment ceremony. It's just the only one recognized by the government.

I meant some kind of commitment ceremony that did not involve a legal marriage, e.g. what's going on here (as compared with a legal commitment ceremony) WHEN YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO MARRY LEGALLY. If you can't, it's obviously a moot question.

[raeoflyte]

I totally understand curiosity, but you do have to realize that if you ask the question it will come across as a judgment whether you want it to or not. I've gotten the, 'are you two really married' more than once just because I didn't change my last name.

Normally I'm happy to yack about myself from here until next Tuesday, but sometimes it just isn't anybody's damn business.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Gotcha, so you're against it because it's not government sponsored. That makes sense.

Just curious, how do you feel about gay weddings which aren't legally recognized in California? Are they fake marriages too, because the government says so?

[Deleted]

Do you find knowing people's problems and issues makes you think more highly or less highly of them?

[raeoflyte]

Apr 24, 2012 12:40:04 GMT -5 Firebird said:

But for me it makes a big difference whether the couple is actually getting married or just having some kind of commitment ceremony.

But it only matters if the couple is straight?

We can agree to disagree, it is interesting how differently people can feel.

[Deleted]

I don't think anyone has to agree with or approve of anyone's wedding at all. The thing that i bothers me the most is attending weddings where there is someone with a bone to pick. I find rudeness at weddings to be very self centered. It is a day for the 2 people getting married and that's that.
However, maybe i am sensitive because at my own wedding my in-laws behaved rudely and it was very upsetting. There is a time to keep one's mouth shut and smile and i think that is the time.

[CarolinaKat]

Apr 24, 2012 12:53:21 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Um... a traditional, or real, marriage is a commitment ceremony. It's just the only one recognized by the government.

I meant some kind of commitment ceremony that did not involve a legal marriage, e.g. what's going on here (as compared with a legal commitment ceremony).

Do you know anyone who got married without being emotionally attached to each other? Seeing it first-hand solidified to me that the 'legal' status of the marriage is of lesser import than the emotional commitment

[CarolinaKat]

Apr 24, 2012 12:56:22 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Do you find knowing people's problems and issues makes you think more highly or less highly of them?

Depends on how they are handling them/have handled them IMO

[midjd]

Do you find knowing people's problems and issues makes you think more highly or less highly of them?

Neither, really... it depends on the issue, I guess (if I found out that a coworker had done 10 years in prison for beating a hooker to death or something, then yeah, I'd think less highly of them) - but most of the things I find out are pretty neutral and just kind of provide a context for things. Like we hired Company A instead of Company B because Company B's rep used to work for us and left on bad terms, stuff like that.

[Firebird]

Just curious, how do you feel about gay weddings which aren't legally recognized in California? Are they fake marriages too, because the government says so?

For the last time, NO[/u][/i] those are not fake marriages. They're as real as they can get right now. It's different when you CAN'T get married because the government is denying you a basic right. I've said this at least twice now, and it's starting to get annoying. If there's one thing I am rabidly against, it's gay marriage not being permitted. They should be able to get married just like anyone else. I have ALWAYS thought that. I have NEVER not thought that.

I'm kind of sick of people implying that I think gay marriage is invalid just because I consider legal marriages more valid than non-legal marriages WHEN YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO DO EITHER. There's a big freaking difference there.

[Firebird]

I've gotten the, 'are you two really married' more than once just because I didn't change my last name.

Just because I like to know doesn't mean I ask nosy questions of complete strangers that are none of my business. I've never once asked anyone this question, and probably never will.

You'd be amazed at what people will just TELL you without even being asked.

[Firebird]

Do you find knowing people's problems and issues makes you think more highly or less highly of them?

Not necessarily. Depends on the context and my relationship with the person.

[midjd]

to both FB's posts.

I don't ask nosy questions, either - I'm pretty soft-spoken and it's AMAZING what people will tell you when they think of you as a "good listener." DH is even better at it than I am

[Firebird]

However, maybe i am sensitive because at my own wedding my in-laws behaved rudely and it was very upsetting. There is a time to keep one's mouth shut and smile and i think that is the time.

I totally agree. If I were incapable of acting nice and having a good time at a wedding for whatever reason, I would bow out. Our wedding was awesome mostly because everyone was so happy to be there, so I get how important it is to have happy guests who are rooting for you. I have never suggested otherwise.

Some of you seem to think that because this is how I would feel, it's automatically how I would act. Not true. If I couldn't get past it in time for the wedding, I wouldn't go. The thing is, I know myself and I could. Feeling the way I do would not automatically prohibit me from going to the wedding and having a great time and fully supporting the couple.

[Firebird]

Do you know anyone who got married without being emotionally attached to each other? Seeing it first-hand solidified to me that the 'legal' status of the marriage is of lesser import than the emotional commitment

No, I don't. But I doubt it would change how I personally feel about legal wedding versus non-legal commitment.

To me, they will probably never be equivalent, and yes, again, again, again, this only applies to straight couples who have a choice because gay couples SHOULD be allowed to get married like anyone else and it's ridiculous that they can't.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I'm pretty soft-spoken and it's AMAZING what people will tell you when they think of you as a "good listener.

No kidding. Somehow people got wind that I am good at keeping my mouth shut and all of a sudden I have people divulging things to me they haven't told anyone else.

I so did not need that kind of pressure. A friend of mine was letting his mom think I was his girlfriend when in fact he is gay.

It's not my business what he told his mom and I sure as heck was not going to out him, but damn it was uncomfortable to know the truth and have to keep my mouth shut about it.

I finally started telling people if it isn't something you haven't told anyone else, I really do not want to know. I am tired of being everyone's black box.

[raeoflyte]

Apr 24, 2012 13:03:08 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Just curious, how do you feel about gay weddings which aren't legally recognized in California? Are they fake marriages too, because the government says so?

For the last time, NO

[/u][/i] those are not fake marriages. They're as real as they can get right now. It's different when you CAN'T get married because the government is denying you a basic right. I've said this at least twice now, and it's starting to get annoying. If there's one thing I am rabidly against, it's gay marriage not being permitted. They should be able to get married just like anyone else. I have ALWAYS thought that. I have NEVER not thought that.

I'm kind of sick of people implying that I think gay marriage is invalid just because I consider legal marriages more valid than non-legal marriages WHEN YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO DO EITHER. There's a big freaking difference there. [/quote]

And to me the fact that the government can make that call at all makes me think that legal marriage has no emotional meaning--for anyone.

You can't imagine marriage being a business decision, and I can't imagine it being anything more than that.

[Firebird]

And to me the fact that the government can make that call at all makes me think that legal marriage has no emotional meaning--for anyone.

Which is totally valid. They never should have been able to make that call in the first place. I have never, not even once, heard a reason gay marriage shouldn't be permitted that didn't involve morality/religion and that's not supposed to have any place in US legislation.

I can see why you think that reality strips it of meaning for anyone. I'm not religious, so the legal marriage is all I have. And if I were gay, then I wouldn't be able to get married in any way that had meaning for me, and that would be deeply upsetting.

Your point is well taken.

[shanendoah]

*phew* Made it through all 10 pages. I come down on a couple sides during this.

First, I agree with Angel D. My company allows for affadavits of dometic partnership for the purposes of benefits. If DH and I had not been married when I started here, we could have filled one of those out and *poof* he would have had benefits. Signing that paper, however, would not have made us married in the eyes of our friends or family. In Angel's case, the military doesn't allow for anything other than marriage certificates when it comes to benefits, but in neither her's nor the ex's eyes were they actually getting married. They were simply filing the paperwork to get her benefits. The wedding was to come later. It didn't. They broke up. They had a little more paperwork to do because of the previous paperwork, and it is much easier for society to understand ex-H than es-long term partner. But I don't think she was ever really married to him, nor do I think she feels like she was ever really married to him.

My BFF and her DH got engaged in the 2 weeks leave he had between finishing his training and going on his first 6 month tour on the ship he was assigned to. They had been living together in NY where he was training. His new home port was VA. They got engaged in AK while visiting in family, then flew back to Reno (where we were all from) and got married in her parent's back yard. This was so that she could have all the benefits of being a military wife- including having housing and all that good stuff in VA. I was invited to the back yard ceremony, but as this was in the days before ubiquitous cell phones, I missed the call and the event. I feel bad about that, but if you ask me if I attended her wedding, my answer is yes- I was a bridesmaid at it and gave the MOH speech, when the MOH couldn't.
You see, after her DH got to his ship, he put in for leave. When leave was approved, they then planned the religious ceremony. Her family was very active in their church (Episcopalian) and his father was a former minister. The big religious ceremony was important to both of them and their families. So, about 9 months after they signed the papers, they had a wedding mass. It was absolutely lovely, and a wonderful way for family and friends to celebrate their relationship.
Now, everyone knew the legal stuff had already been done, in fact, the minister started out by acknowledging that the legal stuff was done, but pointing out that this was their first opportunity to share the event with their community- making it a wedding, a real one, not a fake one.
And for the record, they celebrate both anniversaries.

About the OP though, I do think the couple is being dishonest- not to FB and her Schmoopy, obviously because they know the truth, but to his family. I don't think FB's feelings or opinions about what they are doing matter at all. I do think that hiding the fact that you are already married in order to get the family to pay for the big ceremony is dishonest, though. As far as I can tell, their only reason for not telling the family that they are already married is to get the check. In this case, they need to learn to be grown ups together and take responsibility for their actions. They are welcome to still have a big religious ceremony and call it their wedding. As this is their first time celebrating their union with their community, it is their wedding. But lying about the fact that they are already married in order to get someone else to pay is wrong.
But again, the only people being wronged in this situation are the ones that stand to lose from the lie- his family, the people whose money they are obtaining under false pretenses.
No one else is being harmed in any way by attending a wedding a year after the marriage.
And yes, there are lots of people who could be invited to a wedding that aren't important enough to be at the marriage. I had friends who determined that their wedding would be immidiate family only, no friends, not even friends of almost 20 years. Friends and extended family were invited to the reception (I've also seen it done the other way around- tons of people invited to the wedding, very few invited to the reception). Was I hurt because I wasn't "important" enough? I wasn't, but some people were. We all still came to the reception and had a grand time celebrating their marriage.

I understand the thought of "I want to know what I'm attending", I do, but to that I say- you do know what you are attending. You are attending their wedding ceremony.

As for some of the other questions asked: Yes, I attend commitment ceremonies. I attend housewarming parties (when couples move in together, when they move into a new home, whatever). I attend bridal showers and baby showers, and pretty much anything else my friends want to invite me to celebrate. Life doesn't have enough celebrations, as far as I'm concerned. In some cases I bring a gift. In some cases I don't. The "size" of the gift is usually determined much more by my relationship with the person and my financial status at the time, than it is by the celebration itself.

I expect to get an invitation to FireBird's baby shower, even though I doubt I'll be able to attend. I'll send her a card, most likely with a gift certificate to Target or wheverer else she plans to shop for the practicle needs of the baby. I will also likely send something once the baby is born (like flowers for mommy). It would be the same if this were FB's second or third child, but again, that's because of my relationship with her, and wanting to celebrate this significant event in her life. It has nothing to do with any of it being "real" or "first".

[shanendoah]

I should also note, that DH did NOT want to get married- marriage is an out-dated form of property law, per him. He wanted to incorporate. I told him it had to be marriage because incorporation didn't change the person who got to pull his plug from his mom to me without a ton of extra paperwork (and trust me, when she was alive, he wanted me to be the one making that decision).
Our 10th anniversary is next year. We have lots of lawyer friends, so I'm thinking about having articles of incorporation drawn up as his anniversary gift.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Just because I like to know doesn't mean I ask nosy questions of complete strangers that are none of my business. I've never once asked anyone this question, and probably never will.":::...

Thanks to too many assholes asking/implying the last name question, the chances of DW taking my name are not good. She said she was considering it (which for all I know means "2/100 instead of 0/100") but the implication that she needed to (by guests from both sides, thankfully) makes her numb on the whole issue.

I've always been sensitive not to ask questions that have plagued me. But some people simply lack the imagination or intelligence to find anything else to talk about. You NEVER know what is an issue for a couple. DW and I did things in the order we did them in because it got us what we wanted. But that doesn't mean she was always rosy about how long she knew it would take. Whenever someone asked "so when are you going to get married" I would just grit my teeth.