Atheists and Morals

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

that's because they all come from the same history

That's what I was saying mmhmm. They all worship the same God, the same one the Masons believe in. The ONE God, creator of all things. There are different belief systems within each religion, as I'm sure you're aware of mmhmm. Orthodox, ect, ect. Muhammad read from the Torah and the Gospel of Jesus before the Byzantine Empire came along with a Holy book. That's why both of those Gospels(books) are in the Qu'ran.

You are choosing to ignore the salient information made available to you through that link, Ahamburger -the chronological list of interventions, the chronological list of air warfare campaigns, the chronological list of client states, and so on.

So you want me to believe the information made available form that tabloid site Spiral? I’m not ignoring what’s there; I can see the person who put this site together is a paranoid individual spinning a tale of BS, IGNORING all the good; which you say you’re not doing. Again, the main point of that site is to prove the existence of a NWO, based on NEOLIBERAL ATHEIETS ideals. All of your typed words are trying to say this is not what you’re talking about, or trying to prove. However, you’re saying what you believe is true, based on the link you provided. That is textbook contradiction my friend. It’s funny how actions speak louder than words, even when they’re typed. ;D

;D Ok. I can agree that these people are not operating in accordance with traditional Christian ideals.

Again, since WW2 it’s been about the PEOPLE and democracy. Just like your paranoid tabloid site points out, just in an insane way. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, get it? Or maybe you think that the massacre in Tiananmen Square in 1989 was somehow the west brainwashing the Chinese people into thinking they want freedom? I know that is EXACLTY what the Chinese propaganda machine says is truth in China.

To put a finer point on it -that the BRICS may one day come into their own does not deny the current existence of imperialism. That the US sells technology to this or that country does not deny the current existence of imperialism. That US imperialism faces formidable challenges from other nations with imperialist designs does not deny the current existence of imperialism. That there are non-American companies in 'the world’s largest companies'-list does not deny the current existence of imperialism. You get the idea.

This is called balance, which is where we are going, and again, those over 80+ interventions are based on the thoughts of a paranoid person, who thinks that a NEOLIBERAL NWO is about to take over. Do you think we should have done nothing in the Mid East in the 80’s when people were crying out? Or how about during the 90’s, the genocides in Bosnia and Rwanda, should we have just sat back and watch millions get slaughtered, without at least trying to help? Oh I forgot the NWO made that happen, so that we would all call out for intervention… Right? That is exactly what your tabloid site is saying anyway; and your justification for thinking that the USA is somehow in control of everything. That is exactly what you said anyway...

Hmm, I don't believe I said anything about the 'markets are failing'.

Apr 30, 2012 16:28:30 GMT -5 @devianity said:

All systems have failed, except business, science, math and industry. Farming is one of our oldest known industries dating back to 10000 BC, banking originated off of farming around 3000-2500 BC. Math and science have have been around since 6000-5000 BC, as far as we know right now anyway.The other thing that has been around the whole time is God or the idea of Gods, these things have existed in various stages and forms and evolved into what we have today.

Don’t want to sound pessimistic, Ahamburger, but I think some of those things are failing as we speak. ‘Business’ has worked to rationalise greed and, warped by its doctrines, industry & science are devouring natural resources - our collective inheritance - and are depositing the value accrued into the pockets of a minority. Debateable as to whether this should be classed as ‘success‘, and the more nations that join the West in its approach to business, the more profound the failing is going to become. Unfortunately the planet hath not the resources sufficient to permit Western levels of consumption on a global scale. I’m not sure what role ‘God’ has played in all this, other than to be something of a tool in the hands of the various oligarchies that have come and gone over the years; even in atheist regimes ‘God’ makes an impact through conspicuous absence.

As for the rest of your post regarding ONE power in charge of the world, I’ll just let the pictures tell the story from here. Without US (ONE) there is no them (business).. See how that works? Thanks JC!!!

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

NY City



Vancouver

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Deerborn Mi.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

All of the people in this "NWO"... err.. Whatever...

[Spellbound454]

They all worship the same God,

They are all monotheist religions from the same original source...but the Gods are very different.

The Jewish one is an "Eye for and Eye"....sort of God
The Christian one is a "Turn the other cheek" sort of God and is a lot milder.
The Muslim one is very strict.

The Jewish people have lots of prophets including Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Samuel.
Christians have Jesus as the Son of God.
and Muslims have Jesus as a prophet amongst other with Mohammed as Gods messenger.

The interpretations are very different and the various religions have their own dynamic.

Which is all very interesting...but Im not entirely sure why you keep thanking JC over the last couple of pages, Ahamburger
Why?

the genocides in Bosnia and Rwanda,

We all went to Bosnia under the umbrella of the UN
We did very little in Rwanda those guys were slaughtered,

[Deleted]

May 4, 2012 11:33:36 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

They all worship the same God,

They are all monotheist religions from the same original source...but the Gods are very different.

The Jewish one is an "Eye for and Eye"....sort of God
The Christian one is a "Turn the other cheek" sort of God and is a lot milder.
The Muslim one is very strict.

The Jewish people have lots of prophets including Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Samuel.
Christians have Jesus as the Son of God.
and Muslims have Jesus as a prophet amongst other with Mohammed as Gods messenger.

The interpretations are very different and the various religions have their own dynamic.

Which is all very interesting...but Im not entirely sure why you keep thanking JC over the last couple of pages, Ahamburger
Why?

the genocides in Bosnia and Rwanda,

We all went to Bosnia under the umbrella of the UN
We did very little in Rwanda those guys were slaughtered,

But the Jewish and Christian God is literally the same God, described from the same texts.

[Spellbound454]

But the Jewish and Christian God is literally the same God, described from the same texts.

and interpreted very differently....as I said...

[Deleted]

May 4, 2012 12:06:38 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

But the Jewish and Christian God is literally the same God, described from the same texts.

and interpreted very differently....as I said...

Gotcha, but what you originally said was that the Gods were different, not that the interpretation of the God was different.

[Deleted]

So you want me to believe the information made available form that tabloid site Spiral? I’m not ignoring what’s there; I can see the person who put this site together is a paranoid individual spinning a tale of BS, IGNORING all the good; which you say you’re not doing. Again, the main point of that site is to prove the existence of a NWO, based on NEOLIBERAL ATHEIETS ideals.

Commonly referred to as 'argumentum ad hominem', Ahamburger; your perception of the people who supplied the information, insightful no doubt as it is, makes scant remark upon the veracity of the information itself. By all means endeavour to categorise the individuals in a manner you find convenient, but this will not change the historical facts of military interventionism.

Regrettably the persistent talk of 'the NWO' has now crossed the line from tiresome to inane; as I have stated several times -it is the policies of government, the motives of corporate ideology, and the creed of militarism that are under evaluation here. Personally I don't think it is that difficult to separate a legitimate concern such as this from the frivolity of tabloid conspiracy, though perhaps we each subscribe to different standards of lucidity.

Again, since WW2 it’s been about the PEOPLE and democracy.

… or so you have been led to believe, unfortunately this doesn't quite account for the support of brutal dictatorships, the violations of sovereignty, and the general range of suffering that has resulted from the policies of the US government and its various allies since WW2 -inc. our own UK government of course. Interesting that you mention Chinese propaganda in that same paragraph.

Do you think we should have done nothing in the Mid East in the 80’s when people were crying out?

I take it you've never read "The White Man's Burden", by Rudyard Kipling… and just what were they crying out for in Vietnam I wonder… to be doused in dioxins perhaps…

As for the rest of your post regarding ONE power in charge of the world, I’ll just let the pictures tell the story from here. Without US (ONE) there is no them (business).. See how that works? Thanks JC!!!

Thank you for the pictures. I suppose they will have to suffice in lieu of any meaningful response.

I bid thee a good evening.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Spiral, I didn’t say that we turned a magic switch after WW2 and everything was a perfect la-la-land, utopia where everyone did the right thing. In fact, I said that we should have listened to our Saudi friends and just stayed the hell out of the Middle East because it would have turned out just like it is in SA right now. The people are getting paid. If you would have gone into that topic a bit, I would have gone into Vietnam; another example of where we should have respected a different culture and listened after WW2.

Ho Chi Min in 1945 before the French convinced the USA that Vietnam couldn’t be democratic under their own rule.....

Ho Chi Minh declared the independent Democratic Republic of Vietnam before a crowd of 500,000 in Hanoi on 2 September 1945.[51] In an overture to the Americans, he began his speech by paraphrasing the United States Declaration of Independence: All men are created equal. The Creator has given us certain inviolable Rights: the right to Life, the right to be Free, and the right to achieve Happiness.[51]

Vietnam is a prime example of how we in NA/West have been trying to make up for our ancestors mistakes, ever since WW2. I have been saying that how you understand the past, is by relating it to what’s going on today. As you can see by the pictures, this is one mixed up “Imperialists Empire”, here are some current events.

Vietnam:

Vietnam arrests US pro-democracy activist
www.chron.com/news/article/Vietnam-arrests-US-pro-democracy-activist-3518869.php

Cuba:

Cuba’s little capitalists are ready to rumba
news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/04/cubas-little-capitalists-are-ready-to-rumba/

Sales of homes, cars grow in Cuba
www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.asp?id=66947

Oil companies or some dirty, greedy business people backing a dictator to try and further their business, doesn’t automatically translate into the USA GOVT funding all of the events on your tabloid list either Spiral. When you consider everything that has happened since 1945, 100 incidences is NOTHING. Especially when close to half are deemed a failure by the info you’re providing, grasping at straws some might say.

The reality is that form of bribery and corruption is also failing because dictatorships(modern monarchies/empires) are failing and people are rising, wanting FREEODM. Those FREE people all want toasters, clothes, FOOD, WATER.

Again, you have said that I am made to believe this, using nothing but contradictions to back up your words. I guess you don’t want those things for yourself and the bottom line here Spiral, you keep going for passive aggressive personal attacks, and skirting the facts. Time is on my side my friend; look at what those imperialist forces are up to now. Live long and prosper.

With World Bank support, Benin to expand decentralized basic services for poor people
www.finchannel.com/news_flash/Banks/108626_With_World_Bank_support,_Benin_to_expand_decentralized_basic_services_for_poor_people/

World Bank to Help Farmers in Bosnia and Herzegovina Increase Crop Yields
www.finchannel.com/news_flash/Banks/108625_World_Bank_to_Help_Farmers_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_Increase_Crop_Yields/

World Bank Halves Water Use, Cuts Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Drastically Reduces Paper Use
finchannel.com/news_flash/Banks/108623_World_Bank_Halves_Water_Use,_Cuts_Greenhouse_Gas_Emissions_and_Drastically_Reduces_Paper_Use/

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Which is all very interesting...but Im not entirely sure why you keep thanking JC over the last couple of pages, Ahamburger
Why?

Do you think a tyrant came up with this concept, right around year 0?

Pax Romana
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana

May 4, 2012 12:09:54 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

May 4, 2012 12:06:38 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

and interpreted very differently....as I said...

Gotcha, but what you originally said was that the Gods were different, not that the interpretation of the God was different.

So, thus far we have come to the conclusions that not believing in God because you can’t see it, is the same thing as not believing in gravity and air. That the whole moral train that we are on now started with the Exodus and carried through to the USA; and even thought things haven’t been perfect, the SPIRT that the USA was created with has used good morals to fostered liberal movements all along because people were asking … WWJD, and what would God think about that??

[Spellbound454]

It amazing me, how people can go into battle shouting, "God is on our side"..............er No, he isn't.

Its even more absurd, when two sides go into battle, both declaring they are doing the work of God.....By default, one or the other is going to be wrong and each thinks they are in the right.
Political manipulation is more important than any moral input...That's the way its always been.....and we, the sheeple, are just getting played.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

It’s too bad that you feel that way about yourself Spell. Rest assured, there is a reason that the Messiah has been at the Center of almost everything over the last 2000+ yrs; and it goes a little something like this…

John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.

[Spellbound454]

We love because he first loved us.

We don't love.... though do we? Oh, if it were that simple.

People put their own flawed human interpretations on what seems like a pure message from the scripture.

What happened on 9/11 was appalling to the core, and it shattered millions across the globe, (76 of the dead were from the UK)
and it was done by someones warped idea of what God was telling them to do.
There have been many more thousands of innocent people who have died in Afghanistan and Iraq as a direct result... and in retaliation for this act.

We in Britain have suffered from terrorist bombings for as long as I can remember, again thousands died...and the "troubles" were a religious conflict between protestant and Catholic Christian sects.

The Iran/Iraq wars and much of the trouble in the Middle East was between Shiite and Sunni Muslims....They agree on Mohammed but are so opposed to who should have been his successor that they blow each other to bits....What madness!

and we go back into history...more wars have been caused in the name of religion than anything else.

People get bigoted, "My God is holier than your God"...then they start killing each other....Which is so far removed from the scriptures that they cannot even see that they are being driven by evil.

Then you have the nutters, Koresh, and that guy from Waco. Cults, extremists and fundamentalists...and the problems in the Catholic Church.

The Church is declining over here....and not because people aren't spiritual and have needs for moral guidance but the institution is not meeting our needs and the messages make no sense.

You think to yourself....."Actually, I don't want to bully Gays or take part in bigotry and I don't want to go to war or cut things of peoples bodies"
There is little point in trying to keep us in the dark with blind fundamentalism...telling us the world was created 10,000 years ago....It wasn't, we know it wasn't.
I've a degree in Science and know a fair bit about quantum mechanics. I cannot be lied to, it doesn't wash.
That's not to say people like me aren't spiritual and enjoy the structure of good moral guidance and tradition...but the needs we require from the establishment aren't being met.

[Jaguar]

May 6, 2012 4:19:55 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

We love because he first loved us.

We don't love.... though do we? Oh, if it were that simple.

People put their own flawed human interpretations on what seems like a pure message from the scripture.

What happened on 9/11 was appalling to the core, and it shattered millions across the globe, (76 of the dead were from the UK)
and it was done by someones warped idea of what God was telling them to do.
There have been many more thousands of innocent people who have died in Afghanistan and Iraq as a direct result... and in retaliation for this act.

We in Britain have suffered from terrorist bombings for as long as I can remember, again thousands died...and the "troubles" were a religious conflict between protestant and Catholic Christian sects.

The Iran/Iraq wars and much of the trouble in the Middle East was between Shiite and Sunni Muslims....They agree on Mohammed but are so opposed to who should have been his successor that they blow each other to bits....What madness!

and we go back into history...more wars have been caused in the name of religion than anything else.

People get bigoted, "My God is holier than your God"...then they start killing each other....Which is so far removed from the scriptures that they cannot even see that they are being driven by evil.

Then you have the nutters, Koresh, and that guy from Waco. Cults, extremists and fundamentalists...and the problems in the Catholic Church.

The Church is declining over here....and not because people aren't spiritual and have needs for moral guidance but the institution is not meeting our needs and the messages make no sense.

You think to yourself....."Actually, I don't want to bully Gays or take part in bigotry and I don't want to go to war or cut things of peoples bodies"
There is little point in trying to keep us in the dark with blind fundamentalism...telling us the world was created 10,000 years ago....It wasn't, we know it wasn't.
I've a degree in Science and know a fair bit about quantum mechanics. I cannot be lied to, it doesn't wash.
That's not to say people like me aren't spiritual and enjoy the structure of good moral guidance and tradition...but the needs we require from the establishment aren't being met.

[egginbonce]

I say,guys............could you keep the posts a little shorter so its worth reading them, and coulod you use your own experience instead of quoting others, even if its scriptural? Otherwise I shall start to think that you are drawing on the ideas of others and not your own;this is OK in science, but a bit suspect in religion(if theres a difference...)
Its cos Im a bit thick, and cant digest long posts.............

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Sure egg. I think this sums up everything that Spell is saying.. YES the terrorist are bad, yes they're PEOPLE doing what they believe God wants. However, no love? Not even close. Equality is love, and people that are fighting for that also believe they are doing gods work.

We are so far from where we were 2000 yrs ago Spell it's not even funny. My mom remembers sitting in the car with my Grandma in the early 1960's because ladies weren't allowed in the bar. The largest mining company in Australia is owned and operated by a lady, and the LADIES are sick of what is going on in the Middle East. It's going to be a very interesting next 30 yrs...

The real revolution in the Middle East: Women in business
management.fortune.cnn.com/2012/04/16/middle-east-women-business/

[Firebird]

Apr 25, 2012 13:24:15 GMT -5 @joey said:

Apr 25, 2012 13:15:59 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'm the opposite, GEL ... an atheist with lots of religious friends. I know some great people on both sides of that issue, as you do, I'm sure. If somebody is going to be a jerk, they're going to be a jerk. Religion, or lack of same, doesn't seem to slow them down one bit!

Atheism-bashing is so popular in this country. If you ask me, it's pretty sad that so many people believe no one could possibly be moral without a belief in a god. That doesn't say much for humanity.

[Firebird]

If you enjoy helping others, establishing societies, preserving the world for the purposeless generations to come, then do so. If you wish to die in a single night of drug-induced sexual ecstasy, then do so. If you enjoy rape, torture, murder, then do so joyfully and without inhibition. No physical or scientific law condemns you. Your actions have no impact on the ultimate trajectory of the universe.

One of these things is not like the other. Doing what you feel is right pretty much never includes rape, torture and murder. The most basic moral systems prevent people from doing those things.

Also - what about responsibility to oneself and one's fellow human? So what if my actions have impact on the universe or God or whatever? They impact ME, and they impact everyone else I know. So of course I'm not going to deliberately set out to hurt them - that would ultimately mean hurting myself.

Life without God/religion is far from meaningless. There's a lot of good stuff in the world itself.

[Firebird]

I know that if I respected my creator, I was shown love and that if I disrespected my creator, the hammer was brought down.

But none of us asked to be created, so why is it our responsibility to respect our creator at the risk of the "hammer being brought down"?

Parents create their children, but children don't automatically have to respect and love their parents if the parents do nothing to earn it. And that's as it should be.

[Firebird]

But where does 'empathy' come from?

Shared humanity. The more connected you feel to your fellow humans, the more empathetic you become - because on a very basic level, they are the same as you.

Wow, I'm so glad I found this board. New toy for Firebird!

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

May 11, 2012 16:34:54 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I know that if I respected my creator, I was shown love and that if I disrespected my creator, the hammer was brought down.

But none of us asked to be created, so why is it our responsibility to respect our creator at the risk of the "hammer being brought down"?

Parents create their children, but children don't automatically have to respect and love their parents if the parents do nothing to earn it. And that's as it should be.

Why are we here? Isn't that a question that answers itself. If there isn't a higher purpose for our lives outside ourselves and greater than humanity, then would we be here?

The example with the parents was a metaphor, if you have good parents I should say. Since we are here for a purpose, then it would be the same thing as being brought into a loving home.

What would happen if the majority accepted ONE God, love and freedom?

Messianic Age??
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Age

[weltschmerz]

Or how about during the 90’s, the genocides in Bosnia and Rwanda, should we have just sat back and watch millions get slaughtered, without at least trying to help?
---------------------
Everyone did just sit back and watched a million people get slaughtered in Rwanda. Romeo Dallaire begged for help. He didn't get it.

[weltschmerz]

Gen. Romeo Dallaire defied U.N. orders to withdraw from Rwanda. Without the authority, manpower, or equipment to stop the slaughter, he saved the lives he could but nearly lost his sanity.
***
In an indifferent world, Gen. Romeo Dallaire and a few thousand ill-equipped U.N. peacekeepers were all that stood between Rwandans and genocide. The Canadian commander did what he could-did more than anyone else-but he sees his mission as a terrible failure and counts himself among its casualties.
After a 100-day reign of terror, some 800,000 Rwandan civilians were dead, most killed by their machete-wielding neighbors. Dallaire had sounded the alarm. He'd begged. He'd bellowed. He'd even disobeyed orders. "l was ordered to withdraw...by [then-U.N. Sec. Gen. Boutros] Boutros Ghali about seven, eight days into it. .. and I said to him, 'I can't, I've got thousands' -by then we had over 20,000 people-'in areas under our control,"' Dallaire said in a recent interview with Amnesty Now. The general's hands, always moving, rose beside his face as if to block the memories. "The situation was going to shit....And, I said, 'No, I can't leave."'
The U.N. had sent Dallaire and 2,600 troops, mainly from Bangladesh and Ghana, to Rwanda to oversee a peace accord between the region's two main groups, Hutus and Tutsis. But on April 6,1994, eight months after the peacekeepers arrived, a plane carrying the Rwandan and Burundian presidents, both Hutus, was shot down over Kigali, the Rwandan capital. Hutu-controlled radio blamed the Tutsis and immediately began calling for their extermination, as well as for the murder of moderate Hutus considered friendly to the Tutsi "cockroaches." The broadcasts gave details on whom to kill and where to find them.
Dallaire and his troops were about to become spectators to genocide. As bodies filled the streets and rivers, the general, backed by a U.N. mandate that didn't even allow him to disarm the militias, pleaded with his U.N. superiors for additional troops, ammunition, and the authority to seize Hutu arms caches. In an assessment that military experts now accept as realistic, Dallaire argued that with 5,000 well-equipped soldiers and a free hand to fight Hutu power, he could bring the genocide to a rapid halt.
The U.N. turned him down. He asked the U.S. to block the Hutu radio transmissions. The Clinton administration refused to do even that. Gun-shy after a humiliating retreat from Somalia, Washington saw nothing to gain from another intervention in Africa, and the Defense Department, according to a memo, assessed the cost of jamming the Hutu hate broadcasts at $8,500 per flight-hour.
www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Heroes/Gen_Romeo_Dallaire.html

[Opti]

Apr 26, 2012 14:30:22 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

To me, if there is no Creator who has defines right from wrong, "morality" is an exercise in irrationality. "Ethics" are a perverse holdover of social survival instincts. If one embraces the truth that survival itself is ultimately meaningless in the absence of a defined purpose, the only logical system of values follows from hedonism.

(Lots of stuff deleted)

As for me, I believe in an almighty and eternal Creator. I believe He set in place moral and spiritual laws that are every bit as real as physical laws such as gravity, and I believe He sanctified a special purpose for mankind.

I just found this today and to me the beliefs in your first paragraph
explain perhaps why you believe as you do, but I feel large trucks could drive through the holes in your logic. I see morals as a code for living and it can come from your religious beliefs or just beliefs in general. I see no logical reason to assume otherwise.

Ethics, morals, etc. yes can likely come from social survival instincts.
I don't understand what you think is perverse about this unless you think anything alive wouldn't mostly work to continue such a state as opposed to seeking out things that could cause its demise.

I have no idea why you believe there is a truth that states survival is meaningless without a defined purpose. Look out at nature. Why does survival need another condition, a purpose? If we believe what we have been taught, plants and animals have no higher thought and no known special purpose. If not having that special purpose meant they would embrace a hedonistic lifestyle that could kill them and their kind prematurely, why doesn't it happen?

Purpose is a much higher need on the needs scale than survival. I think you can create your own purpose. We both believe in God but in much different ways.

[jemima]

ts cos Im a bit thick, and cant digest long posts.............

Honesty is the best policy.

[kgb18]

In your experience, are athesists less moral or less principled than religious folks?

I'm late to the party, so I'm going to answer the original question in the OP.

Neither. I think people are inherently moral or not regardless of what they claim their religious affiliation, or lack thereof, to be. And I think how they were raised also plays into it.

I used to work with two people: One who was a born again Christian who was continuously going on and on about God and being saved and the other who was an atheist. When it came to day to day living the person who was the atheist was a far more polite, kind, tolerant and caring person than the one who spent all of her time espousing her Christian beliefs.

[Firebird]

The example with the parents was a metaphor, if you have good parents I should say. Since we are here for a purpose, then it would be the same thing as being brought into a loving home.

And if you didn't have good parents or a loving home?

[kgb18]

And if you didn't have good parents or a loving home?

That's why I think whether or not you're a good person is, at least in part, inherent. I certainly think the environment you are brought up in can contribute to how you treat others, but it's not everything. You see people who come from what appear to be good, loving, Christian homes who turn into terrible people. Likewise, you see people raised in awful situations and environments who rise above to become good, kind people.

[Deleted]

The morals of Christianity are the morals of many traditions. Christianity did not invent these values nor do they own the rights to morals.