Atheists and Morals

[Deleted]

Atheism is rife in Europe but whether or not the state is actually secular, depends on how divorced the state is from the Church.
In Britain our structural calendar is certainly Christian...and our head of State is also the head of the church, so religion is way up there in the pecking order

I don’t think it is, Spell. I think most Christians in the UK are Christians-by-default, most Christian holidays have been devoured by crass commercialisation, the relative size of Christianity is decreasing by consequence of immigration and the fact that the younger generations are really not in touch with religion at all. The things you speak of are the crumbling relics from an era which has fallen by the wayside.

I’m inclined to think that decent social support mechanisms lessen the need for the crutch-like services of religion. Seems the more hospitals you have the less churches you need; that’s not to say that there isn’t a spiritual need that religion rightly satisfies.

Last I checked the USA isn’t trying to fly their flag on other countries, like the Brits and the French were up until the Second World War, it’s more about doing your own thing, building the business, and just leaving US alone.

I believe imperialism is imperialism regardless of whether it comes wrapped in a flag, Ahamburger.

I don’t think that a religious person has more values than atheists either Spiral; I think that has kind of been established already in the thread, at least I though it had. I think the conversation has morphed more into where the Freedom and Moral train got on the tracks and how all Atheist based systems since have fallen or all in the process of falling.

Well, up until that point I had yet to offer an opinion on the thread topic but thank you for the summary of where the discussion has gone since. It seems to me that all systems fail eventually, the question, then, concerns not whether or how they fail but rather how enjoyable the ride is for the people concerned; I think there are factors which play a more significant influence on this than religious belief or lack thereof.

Kind regards.

[tyfighter3]

All I know is My Dad always told me not to gamble with anybody UNLESS you have the nuts on them. In essence to him that was not gambling. LOL So, I will make this Bet with any Atheist out here and we will put our Souls up to the winner. I bet that there is a God and that JC is the Salvation for our Souls for having everlasting life after death. I will take on all bets and will cover every one of them myself. But before taking this one on, you better think about it very closely. LOL

[femmefatale]

Interesting convo...

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

I agree femme, It is..

Spiral, I apologize for thinking you hadn't read the whole thread.

I believe imperialism is imperialism regardless of whether it comes wrapped in a flag, Ahamburger. It seems to me that all systems fail eventually, the question, then, concerns not whether or how they fail but rather how enjoyable the ride is for the people concerned; I think there are factors which play a more significant influence on this than religious belief or lack thereof.

All systems have failed, except business, science, math and industry. Farming is one of our oldest known industries dating back to 10000 BC, banking originated off of farming around 3000-2500 BC. Math and science have have been around since 6000-5000 BC, as far as we know right now anyway.The other thing that has been around the whole time is God or the idea of Gods, these things have existed in various stages and forms and evolved into what we have today.

Which is a Media that is trying to convince people that the USA is on it's way out and that China is the new super power (except for that whole Social Bubble they have). The IMF, set up to help third world countries, is baling out Europe. The G7 is now the G20 and the BRICs are now all the buzz. The BRICS are starting to trade more among themselves, and this includes these developing nations staring to donate money to themselves! This is about as far from Imperialism as it gets, and ties into what TY is saying here, which I think is brilliant because it's about God, but can aslo be applied to what's going on in the world right now... ;D

All I know is My Dad always told me not to gamble with anybody UNLESS you have the nuts on them.

Japan, Korea, Canada, China, ECT and now Russia, have all come to the USA over the last 100-150 yrs to ask for help developing their economies and to learn about industry. It was a HUGE gamble helping out people that could potentially harm them. However, knowing the fundamental idea of what we in NA were doing was based of the principals of JC, we knew that the PEOPLE would eventually be on our side, which would cause a BALANCE in the global economy. Thanks JC!

Apr 29, 2012 21:25:00 GMT -5 tyfighter3 said:

All I know is My Dad always told me not to gamble with anybody UNLESS you have the nuts on them. In essence to him that was not gambling. LOL So, I will make this Bet with any Atheist out here and we will put our Souls up to the winner. I bet that there is a God and that JC is the Salvation for our Souls for having everlasting life after death. I will take on all bets and will cover every one of them myself. But before taking this one on, you better think about it very closely. LOL

I have to say that's a great point and I'm thankful your around here TY! Thanks for sharing when you can! Here is some info that ties into your thoughts above.

God's far from dead in the global South
www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/margaret-wente/gods-far-from-dead-in-the-global-south/article2281615/

What’s the fastest-growing religion in the world today?

It’s Christianity. You can be excused if you guessed wrong. For the past decade, the Western world’s attention has been transfixed by Islam. But in sub-Saharan Africa and the Asia-Pacific region, it’s Christianity that’s on the march. Today, Christianity claims 2.18 billion believers – a third of the world’s population.

[/size]

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

This is what I'm saying, there is room in our system for everyone. LOVE not WAR makes more!! Thanks JC!

136 Chinese firms on Forbes Global 2000 list
www.asiaone.com/Business/News/Story/A1Story20120421-341145.html

[Deleted]

All systems have failed, except business, science, math and industry. Farming is one of our oldest known industries dating back to 10000 BC, banking originated off of farming around 3000-2500 BC. Math and science have have been around since 6000-5000 BC, as far as we know right now anyway.The other thing that has been around the whole time is God or the idea of Gods, these things have existed in various stages and forms and evolved into what we have today.

Don’t want to sound pessimistic, Ahamburger, but I think some of those things are failing as we speak. ‘Business’ has worked to rationalise greed and, warped by its doctrines, industry & science are devouring natural resources - our collective inheritance - and are depositing the value accrued into the pockets of a minority. Debateable as to whether this should be classed as ‘success‘, and the more nations that join the West in its approach to business, the more profound the failing is going to become. Unfortunately the planet hath not the resources sufficient to permit Western levels of consumption on a global scale. I’m not sure what role ‘God’ has played in all this, other than to be something of a tool in the hands of the various oligarchies that have come and gone over the years; even in atheist regimes ‘God’ makes an impact through conspicuous absence.

This is about as far from Imperialism as it gets

I think this is just a different kind of imperialism.

Regards.

[Spellbound454]

Please show me a Democracy with the same values, that has been around as long as the USA has. Your still missing the point of what I am saying about where freedom started.

Well, I didnt mean to upset you Ahamburger... and perhaps Im missing the point but there are democracies similar to the US all over. I live in one for a start.
Ours is centre right for the moment, France is on the right soon to go left, Gemanys is centre right, Australias is left of centre..for now.. and we swing from one GE to another. What is it that you think is different about the US?...We all have freedoms.

I’ll bet the Liberals in Egypt would love to hear you say that, considering they feel that their Revolution has been hijack by religion. The exact thing you are saying you stand against, is it easy to brush this aspect aside because you can live freely?

Im not sure what you mean by this either. Im not against religion. If the majority of people want a close religious structure then they should have it.
The Liberals think its been hijacked... but they are not the only people in the country and the government should represent the majority.
It doesnt look like they are going to be free.......well maybe they don't want to be......they have a choice.
There is a problem with enforcing a political ideology on a country that isnt ready for it.....It never works out too well.

As for Sharia courts in Europe..they deal with marital problems. They don't override state law.

I’m inclined to think that decent social support mechanisms lessen the need for the crutch-like services of religion. Seems the more hospitals you have the less churches you need; that’s not to say that there isn’t a spiritual need that religion rightly satisfies.

There is a spiritual need and there always will be. Many of us are simply spiritual creatures. Perhaps people aren't attending Churches because it is the establishment that is no longer relevent to their lives.... there are factors as you state below.

Well, up until that point I had yet to offer an opinion on the thread topic but thank you for the summary of where the discussion has gone since. It seems to me that all systems fail eventually, the question, then, concerns not whether or how they fail but rather how enjoyable the ride is for the people concerned; I think there are factors which play a more significant influence on this than religious belief or lack thereof.

Which is a Media that is trying to convince people that the USA is on it's way out and that China is the new super power (except for that whole Social Bubble they have). The IMF, set up to help third world countries, is baling out Europe. The G7 is now the G20 and the BRICs are now all the buzz. The BRICS are starting to trade more among themselves, and this includes these developing nations staring to donate money to themselves! This is about as far from Imperialism as it gets, and ties into what TY is saying here, which I think is brilliant because it's about God, but can aslo be applied to what's going on in the world right now...

Its whoever can weather the coming storm....Dog eat dog and all that.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Don’t want to sound pessimistic, Ahamburger, but I think some of those things are failing as we speak. ‘Business’ has worked to rationalise greed and, warped by its doctrines, industry & science are devouring natural resources - our collective inheritance - and are depositing the value accrued into the pockets of a minority. Debateable as to whether this should be classed as ‘success‘, and the more nations that join the West in its approach to business, the more profound the failing is going to become. Unfortunately the planet hath not the resources sufficient to permit Western levels of consumption on a global scale. I’m not sure what role ‘God’ has played in all this, other than to be something of a tool in the hands of the various oligarchies that have come and gone over the years; even in atheist regimes ‘God’ makes an impact through conspicuous absence.

People, have done all those things using science, business and industry Spiral. People have rationalized greed, and used what the Earth provides in an un balanced fashion. If there were no renewable resources, recycling programs, bio fuels, and an all out change in peoples attitude towards mother earth, then I would agree with you. However, I see balance and this area of the board is dedicated to that balance.

notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=perspectives

However, you are free to believe what you want regardless of facts presented. I can tell from your comment above Spiral, and this one here...

I think this is just a different kind of imperialism.

....that you're talking about the "NWO". I find huge irony in this considering the topic at hand, as almost all of the information regarding this conspiracy centers around this concept.

www.jeremiahproject.com/newworldorder/

As the 20th-century idols of atheism, humanism and communism have become mainstream and now accepted by most, we are now moving to a contest for the souls and minds of Americans where we now face formidable opponents in godless liberal collectivists, neo-conservative fascists, globalists, New Age religion, Islam and Satanism.

Where does God play in Spiral? At the start of this country with Freedom and the progression of that freedom. Where do the morals fall in, PEOPLE have abused this freedom and gone imbalanced with what we have been given. The Atheism? Now some think that WE are somehow responsible for all of this

Well, I didnt mean to upset you Ahamburger... and perhaps Im missing the point but there are democracies similar to the US all over. I live in one for a start.

You didn't upset me Spell, no worries. Yes, I'm sorry you're still missing the point. Democracy the way we have it now only exists because of the USA.. The French tried in the late 1700's and failed because they based their society on Atheism. You only have a democracy NOW, because NA intervened in WW2. That's end of the story on WHY Europe has democracy at all right now, and isn't most of Europe a Constitutional Monarchy Spell?

Im not sure what you mean by this either. Im not against religion. If the majority of people want a close religious structure then they should have it.
The Liberals think its been hijacked... but they are not the only people in the country and the government should represent the majority.
It doesnt look like they are going to be free.......well maybe they don't want to be......they have a choice.
There is a problem with enforcing a political ideology on a country that isnt ready for it.....It never works out too well.

As for Sharia courts in Europe..they deal with marital problems. They don't override state law.

What if they see freedom as living under God? By saying they want to live religious by choice and not free you are contradicting yourself.

It's not that the people in the Middle east don't want to pick their own leaders Spell, they just want to have religion as part of their democracy, or so it would seem. The interesting thing about the Middle East right now, and this ties right into the whole freeing of the slaves concept that started with the USA. Is that the only place that isn't starting to riot, is Saudi Arabia; they are giving their people enough money to better their standard of living.

As far as the Shira Law ONLY being about Marriage.. R you just omitting certain aspects of their goals, or have you not see these yet Spell?

Missiles on my apartment? London resident balks at Olympics security measures
worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/29/11454116-missiles-on-my-apartment-london-resident-balks-at-olympics-security-measures?lite

[gavinsnana]

Apr 25, 2012 10:57:35 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

Nope. I am an Atheist and I do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.

So do I, and I am of the Christian faith.

[cereb]

Apr 25, 2012 10:50:42 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I was listening to NPR and they were talking about the history of atheism. One early american theory was that all religions should be tolerated, but atheism should not. The reasoning was that because atheists didn't believe in a god of any sort, they had nothing to swear on, and therefore couldn't be trusted to tell the truth in court.

In your experience, are athesists less moral or less principled than religious folks?[/quote]


No. Not at all.

[Deleted]

People, have done all those things using science, business and industry Spiral. People have rationalized greed, and used what the Earth provides in an un balanced fashion. If there were no renewable resources, recycling programs, bio fuels, and an all out change in peoples attitude towards mother earth, then I would agree with you. However, I see balance and this area of the board is dedicated to that balance.

notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=perspectives

However, you are free to believe what you want regardless of facts presented.

Thank you very much for the link, Ahamburger. Here's one for you in return:

www.unfpa.org/6billion/ccmc/consumptionandresources.html

During the 1990s, one U.S. citizen was consuming 30 times what one citizen of India did; developed nations were 20% of the world's population yet used two-thirds of all resources and generated 75% of the world's pollution and waste. (1) World consumption patterns were undermining the environmental resource base.

Of course you are free to search for more current information, though modern trends aren't significantly different. The truth of the matter is that Western levels of consumption are not currently sustainable on a global scale; the ship is slowly sinking. The system in question is not going to be spread very far for very long. It is eating away at its own foundations - the bigger it gets the more ravenous it becomes - a phenomenon applauded as 'economic growth'; there is an inevitable destination on the current trajectory. As you note with your link - yes - people are starting to wise up to the impending disaster, however the efficacy of such remedial action is yet to be understood; forgive me for not sharing in your optimism just yet.

I can tell from your comment above Spiral, and this one here...
....that you're talking about the "NWO". I find huge irony in this considering the topic at hand, as almost all of the information regarding this conspiracy centers around this concept.

I have very little interest in the 'NWO', and I find it a questionable tactic to brush off sincere discussion of imperialist foreign policies with talk of tabloid conspiracy theories. No worries.

Where does God play in Spiral?

Well, merely where I stated. As an example: 'God' is of significant political value in the US. Surely not the only place. It is unfortunate that such things are twisted into political currency but, as hinted at earlier, religion is just one of many forces at work in determining the nature of a society or civilisation.

Regards.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Thank you very much for the link, Ahamburger. Here's one for you in return:

www.unfpa.org/6billion/ccmc/consumptionandresources.html

During the 1990s, one U.S. citizen was consuming 30 times what one citizen of India did; developed nations were 20% of the world's population yet used two-thirds of all resources and generated 75% of the world's pollution and waste. (1) World consumption patterns were undermining the environmental resource base.

Of course you are free to search for more current information, though modern trends aren't significantly different. The truth of the matter is that Western levels of consumption are not currently sustainable on a global scale; the ship is slowly sinking. The system in question is not going to be spread very far for very long. It is eating away at its own foundations - the bigger it gets the more ravenous it becomes - a phenomenon applauded as 'economic growth'; there is an inevitable destination on the current trajectory. As you note with your link - yes - people are starting to wise up to the impending disaster, however the efficacy of such remedial action is yet to be understood; forgive me for not sharing in your optimism just yet.

Yes the modern usages is becoming quite different, again I have provided a link that has many threads outlining how we are moving into balance. There are a lot of people that understand what you are presenting above.

Richard Bronson wasn't using Bio fuels in planes 20-30 yrs ago. Solar powered planes were a pipe dream. Bio fuels were at the start of development and we are now looking at spray on solar technology. We are using garbage for power and recycling programs are showing up in every city across North America and again, the younger generation has a better sense of environment. Think about this... IN the 1960's lake Michigan caught on fire because f all the crap in it. It's not perfect today, but better, we can still work with the earth (Land Reclamation info of Investing Perspectives).. Oh ya, then there is the whole space travel thing, (again presented and tracked on Investing Perspectives)

I have very little interest in the 'NWO', and I find it a questionable tactic to brush off sincere discussion of imperialist foreign policies with talk of tabloid conspiracy theories. No worries.

I'm not worried. I have present factual evedence of current and historical events, that tie into the current economic structure and situation. This is back up to the fact we are moving into balance with other nations, not Imperialism. All you say is I believe it, providing nothing to back it up except your beliefs, under our laws you're losing your case.

Well, merely where I stated. As an example: 'God' is of significant political value in the US. Surely not the only place. It is unfortunate that such things are twisted into political currency but, as hinted at earlier, religion is just one of many forces at work in determining the nature of a society or civilisation.

Regards.

[/size]

Again, religion is man made and I'm glad that we in NA have it separated from the State. Your spirit has been given to you by God there is a big difference.

Later.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Apr 30, 2012 19:15:14 GMT -5 gavinsnana said:

Apr 25, 2012 10:57:35 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

Nope. I am an Atheist and I do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.

So do I, and I am of the Christian faith.

Me to, except I see myself more like this...

Jewish Christian
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

The thing that's interesting gavinsana, is that if Muslims were acting like the good Christians they were supposed to be acting like, all this extremism would die.

Jesus in Islam
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

n Islam, Jesus (Isa; Arabic: عيسى‎ ʿĪsā) is considered to be a Messenger of God and the Masih (Messiah) who was sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel.[1] The belief in Jesus (and all other messengers of God) is required in Islam, and a requirement of being a Muslim. The Quran mentions Jesus twenty-five times, more often, by name, than Muhammad.[2][3]

[Spellbound454]

You didn't upset me Spell, no worries. Yes, I'm sorry you're still missing the point. Democracy the way we have it now only exists because of the USA.. The French tried in the late 1700's and failed because they based their society on Atheism. You only have a democracy NOW, because NA intervened in WW2. That's end of the story on WHY Europe has democracy at all right now, and isn't most of Europe a Constitutional Monarchy Spell?

A constitutional monarchy, is a democracy. We have two houses of government..the same as you. The country is run by a cabinet office of the democratically elected ruling party. All laws have to go through both houses with a majority... before they go on the statute.
The Queen is head of state but she doesn't have any governing power.

What if they see freedom as living under God? By saying they want to live religious by choice and not free you are contradicting yourself.

They are favouring a religious state with a religious government. This can never be a free democracy. Its their choice though......just hope they dont end up like Iran as they will probably regret it.
As for the threat to the Olympics.
We are seen as supporting Israel by terrorists....much the same as you are.
I dont know what God thinks its OK to blow yourself up and kill a load of people....but it isnt Allah and most ordinary people just go about their normal lives without being radicalised.
However, there are a hard core of nutters.
There are nutters in every walk of life, come to think of it.

'God' is of significant political value in the US.

Why is that? I don't remember Jesus being political......He certainly cannot be claimed by the Republicans, he doesnt belong to any political side.

[Spellbound454]

is that if Muslims were acting like the good Christians they were supposed to be acting like,

Christainity has its share of nutcases as well.
...and those whose endeavor is not about morality......but power.

[mmhmm]

... if Muslims were acting like the good Christians they were supposed to be acting like, all this extremism would die.

Same could be said of those who claim to be true Christians, I'd say. Muslims are not Christians, good or otherwise. They're Muslims. They do not believe Jesus was the son of God, anymore than the Jewish people believe Jesus was the son of God. That belief belongs exclusively to the Christians and cannot be imposed on another religion.

[jemima]

May 1, 2012 13:29:46 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

is that if Muslims were acting like the good Christians they were supposed to be acting like,

Christainity has its share of nutcases as well.
...and those whose endeavor is not about morality......but power.

Good point!

[Deleted]

Yes the modern usages is becoming quite different, again I have provided a link that has many threads outlining how we are moving into balance.

The link was very interesting but it did little to dissuade the notion that economic imperatives take pride of place above all else, which was really what I was suggesting to be the mechanism of our downfall; competing needs -conservation of resources against incessant consumption of resources.

I'm not worried. I have present factual evedence of current and historical events, that tie into the current economic structure and situation. This is back up to the fact we are moving into balance with other nations, not Imperialism. All you say is I believe it, providing nothing to back it up except your beliefs, under our laws you're losing your case.

Well, you presented something about 'the NWO' which I think I subsequently informed you was irrelevant -being that I wasn’t talking about 'the NWO'. ;D

In any case, Ahamburger, one can find pretty much anything he wants online to support any notion he might wish to entertain. Perhaps the 'factual evidence' you speak of, then, only really evidences the selectivity with which one has compiled it.

By way of example:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_interventions_of_the_United_States

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_States

academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

utopianist.com/2011/02/dangerous-allies-a-history-of-u-s-backed-dictators/

www.apk2000.dk/netavisen/artikler/global_debat/2002-1126_us_imp_basic_stats.htm

I could go on for some time posting 'factual evidence' pertaining to the phenomenon of US Imperialism, but I have difficulty believing it to be necessary. Surely it's not news to you that there exists an American Empire in the world?

Why is that? I don't remember Jesus being political......He certainly cannot be claimed by the Republicans, he doesnt belong to any political side.

Well, Spell, Jesus has political implications. One strand of particular interest to me is 'Christian Anarchism', of which I understand Leo Tolstoy was a tacit proponent in his later life. I have yet to read his "The Kingdom of God Is Within You", but it looks very interesting. Probably don't need to dwell for too long on the overlapping of religious and political beliefs, but, for example, it can be seen that things like abortion and homosexuality, to name but two, are political hot potatoes by consequence of the religious beliefs people entertain in relation to them.

Regards the pair of you.

Same could be said of those who claim to be true Christians, I'd say. Muslims are not Christians, good or otherwise. They're Muslims. They do not believe Jesus was the son of God, anymore than the Jewish people believe Jesus was the son of God. That belief belongs exclusively to the Christians and cannot be imposed on another religion.

[jemima]

Enjoying your posts too, Spiral Dude.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

I agree with both of you. If everyone everyone would act like Jesus wanted us to, extremism would die.

We are seen as supporting Israel by terrorists....much the same as you are.
I don't know what God thinks its OK to blow yourself up and kill a load of people....but it isn't Allah and most ordinary people just go about their normal lives without being radicalised.
However, there are a hard core of nutters.
There are nutters in every walk of life, come to think of it.

We are seen as terrorist for supporting Israel according to the nutjobs Spell. God(Allah) doesn't support the killing of anyone I wouldn't imagine. Humans have done a good job of killing in thy name though..

Same could be said of those who claim to be true Christians, I'd say. Muslims are not Christians, good or otherwise. They're Muslims. They do not believe Jesus was the son of God, anymore than the Jewish people believe Jesus was the son of God. That belief belongs exclusively to the Christians and cannot be imposed on another religion.

Jewish people, Muslims, and Christians are all of the same religion mmhmm. It started with the Exodus, Moses is also a profit in all three. It's also not true that Muslims don't believe that birth of Jesus was a miraculous event. From the wiki entry about JC and Islam...

It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc.), all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the popular opinion and Muslim traditions, Jesus was not crucified but instead, he was raised up by God unto the heavens. This "raising" is understood to mean through bodily ascension.

Most Islamic scholars say that its not a matter of denying the Crucifixion, as it's more like, Jesus GAVE his life for US, lest we forget.

An aside to this topic, the interesting thing about the conflict in the Middle East, had we listen to our friends the Saudis, and not our cousins in Europe, we wouldn't have installed a puppet regime in Iran after Israel was established. We should have let them do their thing and then turn to us for money, it would have turned out just like it is in SA right now. The PEOPLE are getting paid!

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Thank for the response Spiral, I look forward to reading it..

Later..

[mmhmm]

Jewish people, Muslims, and Christians are all of the same religion mmhmm. It started with the Exodus, Moses is also a profit in all three. It's also not true that Muslims don't believe that birth of Jesus was a miraculous event. From the wiki entry about JC and Islam...

That may be your opinion, ahamb, but I don't think Jewish people, or Muslims would agree with you that they are Christians. They're not. I don't look to wiki for things like this. I look to the over twenty years I spent in Islamic countries. I didn't say the Muslims don't believe the birth of Jesus to have been a miracle. I said they don't believe Jesus was the son of God, and they don't. Neither do the Jewish people.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

The link was very interesting but it did little to dissuade the notion that economic imperatives take pride of place above all else, which was really what I was suggesting to be the mechanism of our downfall; competing needs -conservation of resources against incessant consumption of resources.

That’s funny Spiral because that is exactly why I see us moving towards balance in our consumption. The need for those resources has made them more expense, making the alternatives viable and good long term investment. It's the same way with wages globally, we are working towards servicing our own economies.

Well, you presented something about 'the NWO' which I think I subsequently informed you was irrelevant -being that I wasn’t talking about 'the NWO'. ;D

I presented something, because you were simply stating over and over, this is my belief, without given any reasons, I should add the last link you posted is VERY much an NWO related site, right down to the consistent bashing of neoliberal ideals, just saying ;D

The rest of the links are very accurate and show exactly what we have already touched on, that people used the Freedom from the Church to their own advantage. It outlines in great detail the mistakes that have been made along the way, and the one thing that is very clear, after WW2 things changed. For instance, from the American Imperialism entry:

the U.S. allowed many of its overseas territories or occupations to gain independence after World War II. Examples include the Philippines (1946), the Panama canal zone (1979), Palau (1981), the Federated States of Micronesia (1986), and the Marshall Islands (1986).

[/size]

After the WW2, a list of overseas "interventions" from the overseas intervention article.. The caps on bold is my writing..

The USA invaded Panama in 1989 and removed Manuel Noriega from power.[21] BUSH WAS CALLED A WIMP FOR NOT GOING IN AT THE START
U.S. intervened in Kuwait in 1990/1991 to expel an invading Iraqi army Gulf War, USA WAS ASKED FOR HELP
In 1999, U.S. utilized an air power campaign to expedite an end to Kosovo War, USA WAS ASKED TO HELP
Since the September 11, 2001 attacks, the U.S. has intervened in the 2001-present war in Afghanistan and in the Iraq War. AN ACT OF WAR AGAINST THE USA
In 2011, the U.S. intervened, by providing air power, in the 2011 Libyan civil war. USA WAS ASKED TO GO IN

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I could go on for some time posting 'factual evidence' pertaining to the phenomenon of US Imperialism, but I have difficulty believing it to be necessary. Surely it's not news to you that there exists an American Empire in the world?

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I’m aware that there is a lot of propaganda floating around out there regarding “The American Empire” Spiral. The only problem is that doesn’t jive with current events. Like I was saying before, it’s not just American Companies on the list of the largest companies in the world. The BRIC nations are trading and donating to themselves and communism is falling in China. Yes, you can find anything on the internet that you want, however, it’s important to be able to actually relate it to current events, not just what you believe.

If only White American business people owned and operated all the business in the world, then we would have an Empire. If the USA would have kept on after the war assimilation other cultures, then we would have an empire. What we have is a democracy that has had to develop over time. In that democracy we have different countries that want different things and we are now at the point where we can, if we choose, work together and move forward as a species. Thanks JC!

Why thanks to JC? Because of all the facts that the entries you posted fail to outline Spiral. The Suffrage of all White Males, the Woman’s Suffrage movement, African American Rights, the freedom that the fall of communism brought, and of course the fact that under this “Empire”; freedom has spread around the globe and more people have been lifted from poverty than at any other time in human history. Without US there is no them!

That may be your opinion, ahamb, but I don't think Jewish people, or Muslims would agree with you that they are Christians. They're not. I don't look to wiki for things like this. I look to the over twenty years I spent in Islamic countries. I didn't say the Muslims don't believe the birth of Jesus to have been a miracle. I said they don't believe Jesus was the son of God, and they don't. Neither do the Jewish people.

How were the 20 yrs in the Middle East mmhmm? It's not my opinion mmhmm, the fact is that it states in the Quran that Jesus was of Virgin Birth by the decree of god. It's also a fact that Moses is a profit in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Jewish people don’t believe that JC was the Messiah (a Tenet in both Islam and Christianity) because at the time he was alive, he failed to bring on the Messianic age, or return Israel to the Jewish people. Why do you think Muhammad wrote the Quran in the first place?

It's wiki but it's the truth...

Virgin birth of Jesus
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus

In Islam Jesus and Mary were the only two children not be touched by Satan at the moment of their birth, for God placed a veil between them and Satan.[56]
The Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 and 19 of The Qur'an wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin.[10]

The account in Sura 19 [Quran 19:1] of the Qur'an is close to that in the Gospel of Luke.[57] The Annunciation to Mary is mentioned twice in the Quran and in both instances Mary is told that she was chosen by God to deliver a son. In one case, the archangel Gabriel delivered the news in (3:42-47) as he takes the form of a man (19:16-22). [58][59]

The details of the conception are not discussed but when Mary asks how she can bear a son in view of her chastity she is told that God creates what he wills and that these things are easy for God.[58] However, elsewhere the Quran states (21:91 and 66:12) that God breathed "His Spirit" into Mary while she was chaste.[58][59]

The bold part is important because of....

The Gospel of Thomas
notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=religion&action=display&thread=21032

Kinda neat how it all fits together when you take Occam's approach..

[mmhmm]

How were the 20 yrs in the Middle East mmhmm? It's not my opinion mmhmm, the fact is that it states in the Quran that Jesus was of Virgin Birth by the decree of god. It's also a fact that Moses is a profit in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Jewish people don’t believe that JC was the Messiah (a Tenet in both Islam and Christianity) because at the time he was alive, he failed to bring on the Messianic age, or return Israel to the Jewish people. Why do you think Muhammad wrote the Quran in the first place?

It's wiki but it's the truth...

All those years weren't spent in the Middle East, Ahamb. Some were spent in Indonesia, another Islamic country. I enjoyed those years very much, as they gave me insight into cultures not my own and opened my mind to other ways of seeing things than that to which I'd been exposed. As I said ... again ... I don't argue Muslims don't believe in the virgin birth. They do not, however, believe Jesus to have been the Son of God. That is strictly a Christian belief. Every time I create a cake, the cake isn't my daughter, if you get my drift. While abroad, I had the opportunity to befriend quite a few Muslim families and learned a good deal. One thing I learned is the Qur'an has many different translations, depending on who's doing the translating. That's why I'd never turn to Wikipedia for information concerning Islamic beliefs. I'd rather get that information from adherants of Islam.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Right on mmhmm, I like to learn about other cultures as well.

I just checked back through are conversation here, and I never said that Muslims say that Jesus is the son of God. I have said it's a requirement that they believe he is the Messiah, that's what it says on wiki as well, to be Muslim you must accept Jesus as the Messiah, born from a Virgin, created in the womb by God. Again I have done all my home work on the subject, and all of the wiki entries are accurate regarding Islamic beliefs. I am also aware that Imam's issue Fatah's, these are apparent orders from God and are usually suited to fit that Imam's agenda; very similar to how the crusades were apparently an order from God as well.

Quran
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

Muslims regard the Quran as the main miracle of Muhammad, the proof of his prophethood[13] and the culmination of a series of divine messages that started with the messages revealed to Adam, regarded in Islam as the first prophet,[14] and continued with the Suhuf Ibrahim (Scrolls of Abraham),[15] the Tawrat (Torah or Pentateuch) of Moses,[16][17] the Zabur (Tehillim or Book of Psalms) of David,[18][19] and the Injil (Gospel) of Jesus.[20][21][22] The Quran assumes familiarity with major narratives recounted in Jewish and Christian scriptures, summarizing some, dwelling at length on others and in some cases presenting alternative accounts and interpretations of events.[23][24][25]

[Deleted]

That’s funny Spiral because that is exactly why I see us moving towards balance in our consumption. The need for those resources has made them more expense, making the alternatives viable and good long term investment.

As far as this matter goes I don't quite share your faith in the market, Ahamburger, and faith in the market seems to be the foundation upon which your optimism rests. Certainly in Europe it is government regulation that is compelling the green endeavour, and the efficacy of this consequent 'moving into balance' is unknown. It is likely that this is not so much a change in motive at the heart of business, but rather something added to its existing portfolio of interests; a new arena to expand into. A cloud may have its silver lining but it is still very much a cloud.

I should add the last link you posted is VERY much an NWO related site, right down to the consistent bashing of neoliberal ideals, just saying

Again, to have criticism of neoliberal ideals brushed off as tabloid conspiracy indicates that the discussion has moved too far below me to merit serious response.

The rest of the links are very accurate and show exactly what we have already touched on, that people used the Freedom from the Church to their own advantage. It outlines in great detail the mistakes that have been made along the way

Well this is cutting a bit closer to the truth, indeed, I could find some agreement with you here. The self-interested supporting of brutal dictators, the belligerent interventionism, the jingoistic militarism, and the staggering polarisation of wealth, all point to an incongruence with what might be considered traditional Christian ideals.

After the WW2, a list of overseas "interventions" from the overseas intervention article.. The caps on bold is my writing..

Yes, you opted to augment a handful of entries from a list that contains details of more than 80 post-WW2 military interventions.

I’m aware that there is a lot of propaganda floating around out there regarding “The American Empire” Spiral. The only problem is that doesn’t jive with current events. Like I was saying before, it’s not just American Companies on the list of the largest companies in the world.

If only White American business people owned and operated all the business in the world, then we would have an Empire. If the USA would have kept on after the war assimilation other cultures, then we would have an empire.

The issue here is with the rather crude conception of 'Empire' alluded to. It is global hegemony being referred to on my part; something which, in sophistication, transcends the constitution of 'the largest companies in the world'-list as well as it does the skin tone of business people.

Regards.

[mmhmm]

May 2, 2012 17:22:03 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Right on mmhmm, I like to learn about other cultures as well.

I just checked back through are conversation here, and I never said that Muslims say that Jesus is the son of God. I have said it's a requirement that they believe he is the Messiah, that's what it says on wiki as well, to be Muslim you must accept Jesus as the Messiah, born from a Virgin, created in the womb by God. Again I have done all my home work on the subject, and all of the wiki entries are accurate regarding Islamic beliefs. I am also aware that Imam's issue Fatah's, these are apparent orders from God and are usually suited to fit that Imam's agenda; very similar to how the crusades were apparently an order from God as well.

Quran
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

Muslims regard the Quran as the main miracle of Muhammad, the proof of his prophethood[13] and the culmination of a series of divine messages that started with the messages revealed to Adam, regarded in Islam as the first prophet,[14] and continued with the Suhuf Ibrahim (Scrolls of Abraham),[15] the Tawrat (Torah or Pentateuch) of Moses,[16][17] the Zabur (Tehillim or Book of Psalms) of David,[18][19] and the Injil (Gospel) of Jesus.[20][21][22] The Quran assumes familiarity with major narratives recounted in Jewish and Christian scriptures, summarizing some, dwelling at length on others and in some cases presenting alternative accounts and interpretations of events.[23][24][25]

No, you didn't say Muslims believe Jesus to be the Son of God, Ahamb. What you said (and what I take exception to) is Jewish people, Muslims and Christians are all the same religion. They're not. They're different in a number of ways. One of those ways, and what defines a Christian, is the belief that Jesus is, indeed, the Son of God.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Spiral, guy, you posted this link, not me, so you're posting tabloid trash? Just sayin’ ;D

www.apk2000.dk/netavisen/artikler/global_debat/2002-1126_us_imp_basic_stats.htm

We should keep in mind that the goals of the imperialist in each of these instances are multiple: acquisition of access to local “markets” of all varieties; imposition of neoliberal policy; destruction of any potential alternative to the techno-fascist ruling order; provision of incentive for a sprawling parasitical and parastatal medical-intelligence-military-industrial complex (MIMIC); production of official “villains” for propaganda purposes; intimidation of non-combatants (as in the year 1945), and continuing political hegemony of the transnational elite based in DC.

Many countries found themselves in dire monetary and fiscal straits in the early 1980s—after the Nixon shocks, the various oil embargoes, and the Volcker interest rate hikes. At this time of the debt crisis, the IMF and World Bank became “lenders of last resort” for regimes unable to meet balance of payments obligations to imperialist-controlled banks—but such lending comes with a cost:dismantle any and all policies that don’t adhere to the mystical mantras of neoliberalism (ie such policies as protectionism, capital regulation, state industry, wage control, labor and environmental regulation, resistance to currency devaluation, autochthonous/non-export production, etc had to go); such is the nature of the structural adjustment program (SAP).

Note further that these policies were the Reaganites’ answer to the “Crisis of Democracy” (as defined by the geniuses in the Trilateral Commission) that was occurring on a global scale and to the relative loss of US geopolitical power in the late 1970s. In order to disrupt the G-77, UNCTAD, and other international movements modeled on the success of OPEC, the debt crisis and its neoliberal response were engineered for the sake of ushering in a new world order of managed friggin’ chaos.

The self-interested supporting of brutal dictators, the belligerent interventionism, the jingoistic militarism, and the staggering polarisation of wealth, all point to an incongruence with what might be considered traditional Christian ideals.

Spiral what this sounds like is a self center Atheists, that has no care for anyone else except for themselves. If you want to ignore all of the good and the change in policies since WW2, be my guest, especially since you’re contradicting yourself. You have no faith in the market to balance itself at this point, yet you think that we are on the verge of hegemony. You can’t have your cake and eat it too Sprial, either the markets are failing, or we are moving forward. Which is it?

As far as a Global hedmony. Please elaborate what it is that your talking about then Spiral. You’re still skirting the facts of the BRICS and how other countries are coming into their own. You still have not addresses why we would have giving our technology to other countries that could have turned around and used it against us. Or the fact that the ENTIRE time that this “American Empire” has apparently ran the world, there has been a formidable challenger every step of the way.

No, you didn't say Muslims believe Jesus to be the Son of God, Ahamb. What you said (and what I take exception to) is Jewish people, Muslims and Christians are all the same religion. They're not. They're different in a number of ways. One of those ways, and what defines a Christian, is the belief that Jesus is, indeed, the Son of God.

Yes, mmhmm the are., Christianity and Islam are offshoots of Judaism. They all have the same original profits: Adam, Abraham, Moses and David. Where they differ, is on their view of Jesus and how things have played out since he was here. However, they are all talking about the same God; the covenant between God and Abraham being the key.

[Deleted]

Spiral, guy, you posted this link, not me, so you're posting tabloid trash? Just sayin’

You are choosing to ignore the salient information made available to you through that link, Ahamburger -the chronological list of interventions, the chronological list of air warfare campaigns, the chronological list of client states, and so on.

Spiral what this sounds like is a self center Atheists, that has no care for anyone else except for themselves.

;D Ok. I can agree that these people are not operating in accordance with traditional Christian ideals.

If you want to ignore all of the good and the change in policies since WW2

Well, no, I don't really want to do this. Of course I'm aware of the good, however the point was that the negatives form a general mode of behaviour quite characteristic of imperialist power. You are clearly a chap who likes evidence, it is provided in each of the links I gave you. The 'change in policies' since WW2 leans heavily in my favour: 80+ military interventions in a matter of decades; this may come as a surprise but military interventions involve a little bit more than simply handing out food and Bibles to war-torn peasantry.

You have no faith in the market to balance itself at this point, yet you think that we are on the verge of hegemony. You can’t have your cake and eat it too Sprial, either the markets are failing, or we are moving forward. Which is it?

Hmm, I don't believe I said anything about the 'markets are failing'. I said I don't share in your optimism with regard to the ability of the market to provide the necessary solutions to the problems to which it itself is a significant contributor - in this case - over consumption. Thus we have the increasing burden of government regulation.

You’re still skirting the facts of the BRICS and how other countries are coming into their own. You still have not addresses why we would have giving our technology to other countries that could have turned around and used it against us. Or the fact that the ENTIRE time that this “American Empire” has apparently ran the world, there has been a formidable challenger every step of the way.

I have not addressed your objections, until now, because they are merely the fruit of a crude comprehension of what 'hegemony' might entail.

To put a finer point on it -that the BRICS may one day come into their own does not deny the current existence of imperialism. That the US sells technology to this or that country does not deny the current existence of imperialism. That US imperialism faces formidable challenges from other nations with imperialist designs does not deny the current existence of imperialism. That there are non-American companies in 'the world’s largest companies'-list does not deny the current existence of imperialism. You get the idea.

Your points make for interesting consideration in themselves, and we could discuss them further if you like, but they do not remark to any great degree upon the phenomenon of US imperialism itself.

As far as a Global hedmony. Please elaborate what it is that your talking about then Spiral.

Well, let's just look at the word, Ahamburger:

Hegemony
Noun: Leadership or dominance, esp. by one country or social group

The US enjoys economic, militaristic, political and - to some degree - cultural dominion over much of the world. What more is there to be said I wonder.

Regards.

[mmhmm]

Yes, mmhmm the are., Christianity and Islam are offshoots of Judaism. They all have the same original profits: Adam, Abraham, Moses and David. Where they differ, is on their view of Jesus and how things have played out since he was here. However, they are all talking about the same God; the covenant between God and Abraham being the key.

Sorry, but I can't agree, Ahamb. Neither, I don't think, would most Jews, Muslims, or Christians. While they might have the same prophets, that's because they all come from the same history (as do the rest of us, for that matter), not because their beliefs are the same. Religious beliefs are precious, and define an individual's religion. The beliefs in these three religions are different, as are the beliefs of those who adhere to each.