Atheists and Morals

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Here is the thing, most normal human beings have a certain empathy for one another, (we are part of the human tribe) it is in our genes. Most of us don’t like to see things die and we mourn their passing and celebrate their life, we don’t like to see things suffer, so we try to relieve pain, we don’t like to see people harm one another and so we have rules. It is primal, innate and right.

I just don’t see that at all Rob. I think that for the most part the younger generation is more tolerant towards other tribes, but African Americans weren’t considered people under the constitution until the later part of the 60’s. It’s the 20th anniversary of the LA riots, which was brought on because of bigotry and just yesterday a friend of mine sent me an article about teachers and School administrator abusing autistic kids. The fact is that weapons are some of the oldest artifacts that we have, there is genocide going on right now in Africa and slavery is anything but gone around the world. The only reason that any of this is different is because of the creation of the USA.

When the USA started out there was slavery, witch hunts, native genocide, and all out intolerance for difference races. It was just like it is in most parts of the world now and like I pointed out before, no, it’s not the norm yet for everyone in the west to treat everyone else good, IMO.

The only reason that we are treating each other better is because of the principals, or morals, that the USA was founded on. Stripped down they resemble the Ten Commandments. The interesting thing about that is who the Masons and the Illuminati had in mind when they set out to rebel against the monarchy and Church.

Adam Weishaupt
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weishaupt

Wishaupt [sic] believes that to promote this perfection of the human character was the object of Jesus Christ. That his intention was simply to reinstate natural religion, & by diffusing the light of his morality, to teach us to govern ourselves. His precepts are the love of god & love of our neighbor. And by teaching innocence of conduct, he expected to place men in their natural state of liberty & equality. He says, no one ever laid a surer foundation for liberty than our grand master, Jesus of Nazareth.

He believes the Free masons were originally possessed of the true principles & objects of Christianity, & have still preserved some of them by tradition, but much disfigured. The means he proposes to effect this improvement of human nature are "to enlighten men, to correct their morals & inspire them with benevolence. Secure of our success, sais he, we abstain from violent commotions. To have foreseen, the happiness of posterity & to have prepared it by irreproachable means, suffices for our felicity. The tranquility of our consciences is not troubled by the reproach of aiming at the ruin or overthrow of states or thrones." As Wishaupt [sic] lived under the tyranny of a despot & priests, he knew that caution was necessary even in spreading information, & the principles of pure morality.

He proposed therefore to lead the Free masons to adopt this object & to make the objects of their institution the diffusion of science & virtue. He proposed to initiate new members into his body by gradations proportioned to his fears of the thunderbolts of tyranny. This has given an air of mystery to his views, was the foundation of his banishment, the subversion of the masonic order, & is the colour for the ravings against him of Robinson, Barruel & Morse, whose real fears are that the craft would be endangered by the spreading of information, reason, & natural morality among men. This subject being new to me, I have imagined that if it be so to you also, you may receive the same satisfaction in seeing, which I have had in forming the analysis of it: & I believe you will think with me that if Wishaupt [sic] had written here, where no secrecy is necessary in our endeavors to render men wise & virtuous, he would not have thought of any secret machinery for that purpose.
—Thomas Jefferson[21]

The G is for God… So the question is….

Exodus: God Blessed America?
notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=religion&action=display&thread=21263

[Deleted]

Very interesting Ahamburger.

[chiver78]

I haven't posted here yet, but have been following the thread from my phone this week. I've gotta say, I'm very impressed with the overall respect for other posters and their opinions. there's a few posters who've come close to preaching on other sub-boards that totally haven't here. I'm not atheist, but I also do not identify with any mainstream majority belief except to call myself a "recovering Catholic" as I was raised, kicking and screaming, in the Catholic church.

that said, I don't know what to do with you, Aham. I read your posts, and can't help but feel like you are those that do not believe as you do. I'd like to ask a question about that post, if you wouldn't mind answering. you say that the G in the Masonic emblem refers to God, and I do agree with that - one of the requirements to become a Free Mason is that you believe in a god, although there is no specification as to which one. you seem to have a high regard for Free Masons, as do I - they seem to have a very high moral code. I disagree with anyone that seems to think that it is solely because of their religious beliefs, as I don't believe the two are related. what I would like you to answer is whether you would respect a single Free Mason who happened to believe in a different god than you do. the tone of your posts leaves me confused.

I do not wish to pick a fight, I'm interested in an academic, respectful discussion as this thread has been since post 1.

[Deleted]

I found this interesting chiver and did a bit of research, this is what I understand to be true at this point.

Freemasonry, Eastern Star, and other similar "secret" organizations appear to be harmless fellowship gatherings. Many of them appear to promote belief in God. However, upon closer examination, we find that the only belief requirement is not that one must believe in the True and Living God, but rather, that one must believe in the existence of a “Supreme Being”, which includes the “gods” of Islam, Hinduism, or any other world religion. The unbiblical and anti-Christian beliefs and practices of this organization are partially hidden beneath an outward appearance of a supposed compatibility with the Christian faith. The following is a comparison of what the Bible says with the "official" position of Freemasonry:

Salvation from Sin:

The Bible’s View: Jesus became the sinner’s sacrifice before God when He shed His blood and died as the propitiation (payment) for the sins of all those who would ever believe (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 5:8; John 3:16).

Mason’s View: The very process of joining the Lodge requires Christians to ignore the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. According to Freemasonry, a person will be saved and go to heaven as a result of his good works and personal self-improvement.

[chiver78]

Apr 27, 2012 15:50:11 GMT -5 @joey said:

I found this interesting chiver and did a bit of research, this is what I understand to be true at this point.

I have the same basis for the Freemasons, Just Apple. I did some similar research awhile back, with the same results. like I said, they are a good and moral group. I personally take issue with their exclusion of women, and have been intrigued with the parallel groups that do actually admit women. I need to look into this more, as I've always felt that if I had different internal plumbing, I'd totally be a Mason. if there's any merit to the parallel groups, and there's a local one, maybe I can join?

[Deleted]

Apr 27, 2012 15:58:27 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 27, 2012 15:50:11 GMT -5 @joey said:

I found this interesting chiver and did a bit of research, this is what I understand to be true at this point.

I have the same basis for the Freemasons, Just Apple. I did some similar research awhile back, with the same results. like I said, they are a good and moral group. I personally take issue with their exclusion of women, and have been intrigued with the parallel groups that do actually admit women. I need to look into this more, as I've always felt that if I had different internal plumbing, I'd totally be a Mason. if there's any merit to the parallel groups, and there's a local one, maybe I can join?

I hear you. The "no girls" sign on the door always makes me want to kick it open.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Hey Chiver, Nice of you to ask not assume.. I have always been more of a facts guy. I guess the reality of it now, is that it has morphed into something that you have answered yourself with a question..

I need to look into this more, as I've always felt that if I had different internal plumbing, I'd totally be a Mason. if there's any merit to the parallel groups, and there's a local one, maybe I can join?

Welcome! ;D
Have a good day!

God Bless America!

[mmhmm]

One parallel group to the Masons is the Order of the Eastern Star, chiver. Several of my family members belonged, years ago. My son is a Mason. Other women's groups are the Amaranth, the Order of Women Freemasons, and the Women of the Nile. I think there are some others, but I don't remember what they're called. When I was growing up in Oklahoma, the Eastern Star was the most active.

[Deleted]

Ahamb, how come you never bless my country? sheeesh....

[chiver78]

Apr 27, 2012 16:11:02 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Hey Chiver, Nice of you to ask not assume..

Virgil is one that can attest that I don't attack unless I am attacked first. I come in questioning, curious peace.

mmhmm, thanks, I will definitely check them out! it's nice to have someone able to vouch for those organizations, I've yet to meet anyone that could.

[Tiny]

Apr 27, 2012 14:56:24 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Here is the thing, most normal human beings have a certain empathy for one another, (we are part of the human tribe) it is in our genes. Most of us don’t like to see things die and we mourn their passing and celebrate their life, we don’t like to see things suffer, so we try to relieve pain, we don’t like to see people harm one another and so we have rules. It is primal, innate and right.

I just don’t see that at all Rob. I think that for the most part the younger generation is more tolerant towards other tribes, but African Americans weren’t considered people under the constitution until the later part of the 60’s. It’s the 20th anniversary of the LA riots, which was brought on because of bigotry and just yesterday a friend of mine sent me an article about teachers and School administrator abusing autistic kids. The fact is that weapons are some of the oldest artifacts that we have, there is genocide going on right now in Africa and slavery is anything but gone around the world. The only reason that any of this is different is because of the creation of the USA.

When the USA started out there was slavery, witch hunts, native genocide, and all out intolerance for difference races. It was just like it is in most parts of the world now and like I pointed out before, no, it’s not the norm yet for everyone in the west to treat everyone else good, IMO.

The only reason that we are treating each other better is because of the principals, or morals, that the USA was founded on. Stripped down they resemble the Ten Commandments. The interesting thing about that is who the Masons and the Illuminati had in mind when they set out to rebel against the monarchy and Church.

You cover alot of stuff Ahamburger.
I'm not sure I see much similarities in the principles/morals that the USA was founded on and the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments I'm familiar with, I've got a Catholic upbringing, don't really say anything about a governments responsibility towards the governed OR the governed responsibilites to the government. The 10 Commandments don't deal with equality or justice or fairness. In fact, the first 4 deal with man's relationship/obligations to God. I'm pretty sure the Founding Fathers didn't want Governemt to set up/dictate anything about a man's relationship to a god. The rest of the Commandments seem to deal with the basics of man's obligations/duties to other men. I'm not sure where women and children (and the slaves of that time and people who worshipped other gods) fit into the original audience for the 10 Commandments... but we don't need to go there (it's my own personal religious pet peeve!)

I think what you are trying to point out was that the founding fathers held (some?) religious views (of their time) and attempted to create a government that wasn't 100% reliant upon a religious tradition and that they tried to lay out basic obligations/responsibilities of Government/Governed without resorting to religious wording/doctrine. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. Forgive me if I have.

[weltschmerz]

Apr 27, 2012 16:18:43 GMT -5 @joey said:

Ahamb, how come you never bless my country? sheeesh....

Yeah, especially in light of the fact that I'm pretty sure the dude is Canadian.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Just Apple, I want to thank you for the complement earlier, I missed that. In response to you and weltz, I feel blessed to be Canadian and I want God to bless all. The reason I'm a USA cheerleader is because I fully recognized what changes have been brought on globally because of some very brave people, and I'm sick of everyone crapping on the USA like they are the devil and have caused all of the worlds problems. The facts just don't show that at all.

Virgil is one that can attest that I don't attack unless I am attacked first. I come in questioning, curious peace.

You might like some of the other content in this area then Chiver.

The 10 Commandments I'm familiar with, I've got a Catholic upbringing, don't really say anything about a governments responsibility towards the governed OR the governed responsibilities to the government.The 10 Commandments don't deal with equality or justice or fairness. In fact, the first 4 deal with man's relationship/obligations to God.

There is some info on that aspect of the Christian religion AT in this thread.. notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=religion&action=display&thread=20797

The way I see the first four being about you and God is exactly the point. It's between you and God, it's not up to govt to dictate those things. So by separating Church and State, religion and govt, you are upholding those commandments. Like we talk about in the Exodus thread, it's a suspicion that Moses wasn't let into the promised land because he ended up using God world to dictate his will.

Justice and Fairness all right here, by acting civil like these rules say toward other people, or fulfilling you obligation toward your fellow man, you are doing what your are supposed to do. If everyone acted like this, what are we looking at?

5. Honor your father and mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

I'm not sure where women and children (and the slaves of that time and people who worshipped other gods) fit into the original audience for the 10 Commandments... but we don't need to go there (it's my own personal religious pet peeve!)

That's exactly my point AT, you know exactly how woman, children, and people of colour were view like at that time. However, now, we are the only places on Earth to fully recognized individuals for who they are. That's what we have worked towards for over 200 years. Since 1945-47 it's really gone outward with the Universal Declaration of Human rights and just now, we are seeing our way of life being shared with everyone in all lands. The interesting part is that is also when Israel was created, after over 2000 yrs of waiting.

I think what you are trying to point out was that the founding fathers held (some?) religious views (of their time) and attempted to create a government that wasn't 100% reliant upon a religious tradition and that they tried to lay out basic obligations/responsibilities of Government/Governed without resorting to religious wording/doctrine. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. Forgive me if I have.

The founding fathers were all spiritual and I would say that they believed that Jesus was the Messiah. No worries about guessing what my thoughts were, your pretty much right on. They set up the Constitution to try and guide people toward the morals that are in the commandments, while trying to keep them safe at the same time by broadening the language to be relevant for current times.

[Spellbound454]

That's exactly my point AT, you know exactly how woman, children, and people of colour were view like at that time. However, now, we are the only places on Earth to fully recognized individuals for who they are. That's what we have worked towards for over 200 years. Since 1945-47 it's really gone outward with the Universal Declaration of Human rights and just now, we are seeing our way of life being shared with everyone in all lands. The interesting part is that is also when Israel was created, after over 2000 yrs of waiting.

I wonder where you are going with that?..... Equality in the Christian Church is way behind the times.
We had 1500 years of Christianity and inequality.. before finallly embracing womens suffrage only fairly recently.

Western countries have human rights...and all of Europe is bound by the ECHR. Its more to do with liberal political ideologies than anything religious.

[ktunes]

Ahamb, how come you never bless my country? sheeesh....

but God has blessed our brothers and sisters to the north as well as those across the big pond...(and several others)

but not because we deserve it...

[Deleted]

Equality in the Christian Church is way behind the times.
We had 1500 years of Christianity and inequality..

A truth I have personally experienced.

Hmmm.. Over my lifetime I've discovered the following truths.. That no matter the written commandments (10), rules, laws of protection and the declarations and rights to be diverse in human actions/interactions and the right to believe in a god, no god, thee True and The Living God or multiple gods at the same time.. People still make choice of keeping or breaking any structured or self structured rule/law of a land or rights of others. Most of us, if not all have broken our own personal laws of great intentions to treat everyone right..

I personally believe that none of the above structures can force anyone to "do right" according to ones belief systems unless there is an inner desire to want to do what's right in the first place. I also believe structure is needed as a reminder of what is expected from each of us towards mankind and could be referred to as our written in stone or tablets, serving as the conscience that reminds..

[Deleted]

but not because we deserve it...

So true.

[Spellbound454]

I personally believe that none of the above structures can force anyone to "do right" according to ones belief systems unless there is an inner desire to want to do what's right in the first place. I also believe structure is needed as a reminder of what is expected from each of us towards mankind and could be referred to as our written in stone or tablets, serving as the conscience that reminds..

Human Rights are ensconced into the law of the land.....If you don't observe these you could wind up in prison.
Its a bit more powerful than religious ideology with a threat of hellfire. Some people aren't religious, so dont feel bound by those codes.

It may be true that the Christian philosophy was the basis for the formation of our moral codes...but state law is what we must all abide by, or else.

[jemima]

There may be a link btw morality and spirituality?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Apr 28, 2012 5:19:38 GMT -5 ktunes said:

Ahamb, how come you never bless my country? sheeesh....

but God has blessed our brothers and sisters to the north as well as those across the big pond...(and several others)

but not because we deserve it...

Because you STARTED it. That's the important part and RESPECT needs to be shown for that.

I wonder where you are going with that?..... Equality in the Christian Church is way behind the times.
We had 1500 years of Christianity and inequality.. before finally embracing womens suffrage only fairly recently.

Western countries have human rights...and all of Europe is bound by the ECHR. Its more to do with liberal political ideologies than anything religious.

First of all Jesus was one of the most liberal people alive in his time. Second you might want to look at bit more closely at the history of social democracy. The first Social Democratic Party in NA to be elected was lead by Canadian, Tommy Douglas. He was A Baptist minister. A lot of funding for the first socially Democratic parties in the USA came from the ADL and other church groups. If these first parties would have attached themselves to Atheist, at the time they would have been crushed out.

It's true the Karl Marx was an Atheists, however, communism is failing(you were WRONG Karl!!! ;D) all over the world and the interesting thing about the late 1700 is that the French tried to abolish religion and form based on Atheism.

Cult of Reason
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason

How did that turn out again?... Oh ya Napoleon, that's right...

Where as the USA was formed as one nation under God with Liberty for all, supported by what people thought the true world of Jesus Christ was. Along with reason, science, business, and industry. The USA not only survived, it has thrived. Now everyone everywhere(the little guys) want what we got, isn't that weird ? ;D

SO yes, the bottom line is that there is a big link between spiritually and morals Jemima. Religion is man made and your spirit has been given to you by the creator. Religion has been used to exploit the spirit and God for most likely hundreds of thousands of years.

The USA has been build on spirituality, not region, and for the first time in history good morals are starting to sweep the globe. These are not my beliefs, this is what it says in the books.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Oh ya, one of the biggest reasons I think the that USA has suceeded is because they dropped their battles with us in 1812 and since then we have been the strongest alliance that has EVER existed in the history of the world... Ya know?

[Spellbound454]

Now everyone everywhere(the little guys) want what we got, isn't that weird ?

Like who?
Most countries I know of.. are happy being themselves.
I admire your Patriotism but other people have patriotism for their own lands.
I'm European..We are quite sophisticated over here. Im not sure we need any lessons on morality.

[Deleted]

Like who?
Most countries I know of.. are happy being themselves.
I admire your Patriotism but other people have patriotism for their own lands.
I'm European..We are quite sophisticated over here. Im not sure we need any lessons on morality.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Like who?
Most countries I know of.. are happy being themselves.

Again, everyone wants what we have and that is freedom. The Chinese are fighting communism for freedom. Myanmar is rioting right now for freer elections, Russia same thing. The people in North Korea are starving to death under a repressive regime and want more than anything to have what we do. I could go on, however, I think you get the idea.

I admire your Patriotism but other people have patriotism for their own lands.
I'm European..We are quite sophisticated over here. Im not sure we need any lessons on morality.

If your from Europe then the reason for your freedom because of NA is easy. The irony in this discussion is that if we(NA) had listen to a prominent Social Democrat at the time of WW2 and worked with Hitler, you wouldn’t have a country, you would be part of the 3rd Reich. Not trying to be a jerk, that is just the reality of the situation.

Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy,_Sr.

Kennedy rejected the warnings of the prominent Member of Parliament Winston Churchill that any compromise with Nazi Germany was impossible. Instead, Kennedy supported Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain's apparent policy of appeasement.

Throughout 1938, while the Nazi persecution of the Jews in Germany and Austria intensified, Kennedy attempted to arrange a meeting with Adolf Hitler.[28] Shortly before the Nazi aerial bombing of British cities began in September 1940, Kennedy once again sought a personal meeting with Hitler, again without the approval of the Department of State, "to bring about a better understanding between the United States and Germany".[29] It has been surmised that Kennedy also had personal reasons for wanting to avoid war; "He feared for the lives of his three eldest sons, Joe, Jack and Bobby, all of whom were or soon would be eligible to serve."[30]

Kennedy also argued strongly against giving military and economic aid to the United Kingdom. "Democracy is finished in England. It may be here," he stated in the Boston Sunday Globe of November 10, 1940. With Nazi German troops having overrun Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and France, and with bombs falling daily on Great Britain, Kennedy unambiguously and repeatedly stated his belief that this war was not about saving democracy from National Socialism (Nazism) or from Fascism. In an interview with two newspaper journalists, Louis M. Lyons, of the Boston Globe, and Ralph Coghlan, of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Kennedy opined:

It's all a question of what we do with the next six months. The whole reason for aiding England is to give us time ... As long as she is in there, we have time to prepare. It isn't that [Britain is] fighting for democracy. That's the bunk. She's fighting for self-preservation, just as we will if it comes to us ... I know more about the European situation than anybody else, and it's up to me to see that the country gets it.[31]

I don’t think that you need a lesson in morals. What we were talking about before this tangent here, is how there is a definite link between spirituality and morals; and how history outlines that quite well. You tried to point out the liberal movement of today has nothing to do with religion, however, the facts don’t support that claim. I welcome you to show me how Atheism has morphed into the worldwide(globalized) Liberal movement of today, because the way that it seems to be in the history books is it started with another group of people thinking... "WWJD?"

[Spellbound454]

Again, everyone wants what we have and that is freedom. The Chinese are fighting communism for freedom. Myanmar is rioting right now for freer elections, Russia same thing. The people in North Korea are starving to death under a repressive regime and want more than anything to have what we do. I could go on, however, I think you get the idea.

You seem to think the rest of the world hold the US up as some sort of paragon of virtue....sorry to burst your bubble... but they don't.

Its not so much that the US doesnt have a good moral structure.....its just that other places have their own things going on and they have more interest in local issues. Other countries have their own identity, history, political systems, nationality, identity...Some are structurally better than the US, some are worse.

The Russian have just elected Putin again....and it may not be favoured in other countries, for various reasons....but the citizens elected him as their president, so be it. As for North Korea, we can look in and think its a rogue state...but the people there are accepting of their regime.
Revolutions only happen when the people themselves want it enough......and at the moment, they don't.
We have seen revolutions in the Arab Spring last year...but they haven't gone for democracy, they have gone for religious states and we have seen the rise of the muslim brotherhood. They still arent free and whether we like it or not, thats what they want. We cannot impose a western style democracy on a country that doesnt want it..... we have no right.
Russia is now far from communist...but for sake of argument if they came to the US, and said they have the best political system, and demand everyone should be like them... the inhabitants would become pretty hostile.
Its the same when we go in to other peoples sovereign territory...the inhabitants don't want us there.

The rest of the world arent "little guys" There is a whole world of interesting countries with different complexities and historical traditions, which you seem to be blatantly oblivious to.

[jemima]

Big guys and little guys...now there's a new concept!

[Deleted]

Its not so much that the US doesnt have a good moral structure.....its just that other places have their own things going on and they have more interest in local issues. Other countries have their own identity, history, political systems, nationality, identity...Some are structurally better than the US, some are worse.

Indeed, Spell, and of course these are interrelated; over time the paths of development that various nations tread form a cobweb of interaction and influence. Ahambuger mentions WW2, a good point indeed, though one could go back further than this and note that the enterprise of earlier Europeans was pivotal in developing the very existence of modern America in the first place.

The idealistic ‘city upon a hill’ undercurrent that seems sporadically to rear its head is a wonderful idea - admirably lofty and well-intentioned - but it just doesn’t accord with the reality of US foreign policy on the ground. To put it bluntly -yes, many people can be thankful of the effect that US influence has had on their freedoms, but at the same time perhaps there have been equal numbers of people who’s desire it is to be set free from US influence. To my knowledge this is the typical fashion of Imperialism - pros & cons - and I find it best to take a balanced view.

Of course atheism is comparatively rife in Europe and many of those countries have some of the finest social support mechanisms in the world. Perhaps the two are related in some way.

As for the question of the thread -in my experience atheists are no less moral or principled than religious types.

Regards.

[Spellbound454]

Indeed, Spell, and of course these are interrelated; over time the paths of development that various nations tread form a cobweb of interaction and influence. Ahambuger mentions WW2, a good point indeed, though one could go back further than this and note that the enterprise of earlier Europeans was pivotal in developing the very existence of modern America in the first place.

Yes, I think the reason the US came to our aid during WW11 was the very fact that many of the inhabitants originated in this part of the world. We are cousins. It might have been more deeply felt at that time. Canada helped, of course, as we always knew they would.
The US covered our backs.. and we have been reciprocating ever since.

The US is a great place to visit, the locals are friendly, the history and culture is interesting and the landscape stunning....
but if we are talking about a,"city on a hill" Im pretty sure that the perception of those further afield, is that for them, it doesn't exist in that way.

Atheism is rife in Europe but whether or not the state is actually secular, depends on how divorced the state is from the Church.
In Britain our structural calendar is certainly Christian...and our head of State is also the head of the church, so religion is way up there in the pecking order
but we dont have Christian fundamentalism in any great quantity.
We do have the right to "freedom of conscience" under the human rights act, so if people want to be atheist, agnostic or whatever....they can just get on with it.

[Deleted]

Apr 29, 2012 7:56:32 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Its not so much that the US doesnt have a good moral structure.....its just that other places have their own things going on and they have more interest in local issues. Other countries have their own identity, history, political systems, nationality, identity...Some are structurally better than the US, some are worse.

Indeed, Spell, and of course these are interrelated; over time the paths of development that various nations tread form a cobweb of interaction and influence. Ahambuger mentions WW2, a good point indeed, though one could go back further than this and note that the enterprise of earlier Europeans was pivotal in developing the very existence of modern America in the first place.

The idealistic ‘city upon a hill’ undercurrent that seems sporadically to rear its head is a wonderful idea - admirably lofty and well-intentioned - but it just doesn’t accord with the reality of US foreign policy on the ground. To put it bluntly -yes, many people can be thankful of the effect that US influence has had on their freedoms, but at the same time perhaps there have been equal numbers of people who’s desire it is to be set free from US influence. To my knowledge this is the typical fashion of Imperialism - pros & cons - and I find it best to take a balanced view.

Of course atheism is comparatively rife in Europe and many of those countries have some of the finest social support mechanisms in the world. Perhaps the two are related in some way.

As for the question of the thread -in my experience atheists are no less moral or principled than religious types.

Regards.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

You seem to think the rest of the world hold the US up as some sort of paragon of virtue....sorry to burst your bubble... but they don't.

I actually stated above that I’m tired of everyone crapping on my brothers and sisters to the south. So, no, I understand that respect isn’t been shown Spell

Other countries have their own identity, history, political systems, nationality, identity...Some are structurally better than the US, some are worse.

Please show me a Democracy with the same values, that has been around as long as the USA has. Your still missing the point of what I am saying about where freedom started.

The Russian have just elected Putin again....and it may not be favoured in other countries, for various reasons....but the citizens elected him as their president, so be it. North Korea, we can look in and think its a rogue state...but the people there are accepting of their regime. Revolutions only happen when the people themselves want it enough......and at the moment, they don't.

PLEASE tell me you’re joking… I’ll let what’s really going on in the world, show just how wrong EVERYTHING you typed above is.

Putin quits Russia's ruling party after protests
www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/290276/putin-quits-russia-ruling-party-after-protests

Russian Elections 2012: A Turning Point
notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=perspectives&action=display&thread=19875

China stops N.Korean deportations over rocket: report
www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jJITPOH0kU5F5f0tK3EgikhNrBmA?docId=CNG.a8c1c3e2edf92a30cc1b3c9bd5ed11c1.1f1

China has stopped sending fleeing North Koreans back across the border, in retaliation for Pyongyang failing to consult its ally over last week's rocket launch, a Japanese report said Wednesday.

The Yomiuri Shimbun quoted two Chinese officials as saying the long-standing policy of swiftly returning any North Korean who made it across the border and into China -- despite the punishment they face -- had been put on hold.

"If refugees are sent back, that's the end of their lives. We can't ignore it," one official in Liaoning province, which borders North Korea, told the paper, adding that deportations had been halted

We have seen revolutions in the Arab Spring last year...but they haven't gone for democracy, they have gone for religious states and we have seen the rise of the muslim brotherhood. They still arent free and whether we like it or not, thats what they want. We cannot impose a western style democracy on a country that doesnt want it..... we have no right.

I’ll bet the Liberals in Egypt would love to hear you say that, considering they feel that their Revolution has been hijack by religion. The exact thing you are saying you stand against, is it easy to brush this aspect aside because you can live freely?

What about these people?

Iranian Arabs are simmering!
arabnews.com/middleeast/article613883.ece

Russia is now far from communist...but for sake of argument if they came to the US, and said they have the best political system, and demand everyone should be like them... the inhabitants would become pretty hostile.
Its the same when we go in to other peoples sovereign territory...the inhabitants don't want us there.

Again, Russia is NOT far for communist. Make sure to read the story above about how Medvedev is finally standing up to Putin, saying that Democracy is NO LONGER a bad word in Russia.. That’s from this year.

People DO try to come into our countries and tell us how to run it. Look at all the Shaira Law courts there're all through Europe, notice how we have ADAPTED to fit other cultures into our life styles? Or no we don’t celebrate OTHER cultures as well as our own in the west?

The rest of the world arent "little guys" There is a whole world of interesting countries with different complexities and historical traditions, which you seem to be blatantly oblivious to.

LOL, no WE are the little guys (sorry people), unless you have Royal bloodlines 3-4 generation ago your family were peasants and before that, most likely slaves. If no one wants a better life.. What is immigration about?

Thanks to freedom from the Church (the USA) and the industrial revolution, the LITTLE person finally has a chance. Notice the RAMPANT poverty all around the world, and how the WEST is trying to do something about that? As a Liberal I thought you were ALL for that? NON?

Ahambuger mentions WW2, a good point indeed, though one could go back further than this and note that the enterprise of earlier Europeans was pivotal in developing the very existence of modern America in the first place.

We talk about that above spiral. In fact here is a good one to read. As that money from business started to grow and the Church started to crack do on these people because they were helping the little person get a head.

Suppression of the Society of Jesus
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus

That was a pivotal moment in the Revolutions from the Monarchy and Church.

To put it bluntly -yes, many people can be thankful of the effect that US influence has had on their freedoms, but at the same time perhaps there have been equal numbers of people who’s desire it is to be set free from US influence. To my knowledge this is the typical fashion of Imperialism - pros & cons - and I find it best to take a balanced view.

I would say that leaders that have slaves would be mad at the USA for promoting freedom in the shadows. Think about this, Hitler apparently wrote about the sneaky Jews that hide in the shadows whispering of freedom and democracy. Last I checked the USA isn’t trying to fly their flag on other countries, like the Brits and the French were up until the Second World War, it’s more about doing your own thing, building the business, and just leaving US alone.

Remember, the USA and the Saudis were FRIENDS for many years before all this crap starting happening after the war. We (NA) have had to clean up our ancestor’s mess that they left behind trying to build Free enterprise the WRONG way.

Of course atheism is comparatively rife in Europe and many of those countries have some of the finest social support mechanisms in the world. Perhaps the two are related in some way.

As for the question of the thread -in my experience atheists are no less moral or principled than religious types.

I don’t think that a religious person has more values than atheists either Spiral; I think that has kind of been established already in the thread, at least I though it had. I think the conversation has morphed more into where the Freedom and Moral train got on the tracks and how all Atheist based systems since have fallen or all in the process of falling.

Atheism is rife in Europe but whether or not the state is actually secular, depends on how divorced the state is from the Church. In Britain our structural calendar is certainly Christian...and our head of State is also the head of the church, so religion is way up there in the pecking order

Exactly Spell! So you STILL don’t have a separation of Church and state in Europe yet, so all European social programs have been BECAUSE of religious groups. So another FACT is the liberal movement started because people were asking.. “WWJD?”