Could a Giraffe Have Evolved?

[Deleted]

Very interesting conversation going on here..

As trite and simple as Ktunes response may seem to you, he is quite correct. The unbeliever who is unwilling to surrender his own will and ways of understanding bible truths will never accept the truth of the gospel.

It is true, sin does separate the unbeliever from God, but for the believer, should he sin, the gospel is to him, the power unto salvation in Christ Jesus (and without mincing words, whether you agree with this truth or not) by his shed blood on the cross at Calvary.. When God sees the believer, He sees the Son (Jesus) and when He sees his Son, He also sees his Son in the light of continual forgiveness, covering the believer with that same shed blood.. When God sees the blood, He passes over the believer who has put his faith in him, God/Jesus.. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Believe in him and you shall be saved too..

You are being drawn by the hearing of this great gospel right now. The choice is yours to believe. The gospel is quite simple, contrary to your wanting to make it sound as if it is not. But, neither me or any other believer can make you believe if you don't want to. Nothing we say, or what the word of God reads, will cause you to believe..

[egginbonce]

Hi H2H.................dont follow your post,as you use terminology with which I am unfamiliar.how can a believer be coverd with shed blood?
What is it that you are being saved from?Imean.nothing is out to get me, as far as I can tell;life is just as it is................
How can god have a son?
its all rather confusing to this unbelieeeeever........................

[Deleted]

Dear Egg..

Would you be willing to go to a Christian church service and listen to the teaching of God's word? If so, seek out your phone directory and make a few phone calls to find out bible teaching times.. Make it a point to go, listen and learn more than I am able to offer. I am not finding myself able to help you see truth as I know it. Maybe a pastor/teacher can do better than myself.

Sincerely,

Fromthe

[ktunes]

Thts not really much of an answer,kt............its nothing to do with being a believer,or not believing

i have not read the entire thread but from what i have it seems to me it started about creation vs evolution...which then "evolved" into belief in a higher power vs not believing in a higher power, or God...

i simply chimed in on why God could allow bad things to happen...didn't mean to come across it's my way or the highway...i feel everyone has the right to believe as they see fit...actually my beliefs are rather different than most in the mainstream...

cheers...

[egginbonce]

H2H...............its very sweet of you to suggest that,and now I feel slightly guilty(!),as I suspect that the way I couch my posts suggests that I am feeling like a lost soul(may well be one, in fact...),and may benefit from an immersion in Christianity.
At the risk of typing rather a long post and being boring,your post deserves a better answer than my usual 'devils advocate' stuff:
My first experience of 'church' was Sunday school, which I was encouraged to attend by my(non-religious) parents, in order to keep me off the streets and the mischief to be found there, in what was a slum area of London. Not having churchgoing parents, it was all a bit odd to me, and I instinctively found this invisible 'god', rather unconvincing,along with improbable stories about burning bushes,walking on water and the like. My feelings wre further compounded by the mother of a friend asking me if I 'believed in God', and when I answerd 'no', she said that I wasnt to play with her daughter any more;even then, I knew that that was rubbish,and not right,and served to cement my view of religion(tho at about 8 years old, I couldnt have put it in those terms).
I have only rev isited 'the church' on occasions where politeness dictated that I couldnrt avoid it, and at my last encounter(a christening, I think), I was appalled by a grown man wearing stuff which (as an ageing hippy) ,I'd have been proud to take to the Stones concert in Hyde Park, who was chanting all this pious- sounding semi-com prehensible stuff, with his hands held out in supplication to(who/what?)an unseen presence,and to be amongst people who seemed to be taking it seriously......At the risk of having read too much Dennis Wheatley, I should say that it was either cos Im 'possessed by the devil',or couldnt be a party to such a performance for a moment longer,and out I went, thinking that it simply confirmed my long-held attitude towards the church.
Perhas the very last time I came across the church was when I was in a rather isolated bit of Wales,and on finding a rather pretty crooked church,went in to admire it,and played their organ.The minister,who, hearing hymns and Welsh laments played on his organ, turned up, not to berate me, but to say how nice my playing was, and would I like to come to hie service the next day? Again, politeness dictated that I accept, so I went,and to be fair, the small congrgation were very nice, tho their beliefs were not for me(tho it did seem that their was mor ea cultural than a religious thing.theyd attended for so long,theyd forgotten why they went in the first place!).
Now(assuming that you havent got fed up reading this), when I was about 20, I was given the double LP jesus christ superstar, and as a result of my experience so far, didnt play it for ages, and when I did, the slant put on JC, I felt, made the story believeable; not in the way that the christain church presents it, but in its own way...................why should Judas be 'evil', for example- why not misguided?(religion loves 'evil' as it is something to fight and to guard against,thus giving purpose to itself).
Subsequently, I have to admit that I like much of many scriptures,tho nowadays ,I fel that they are often repetitive,but rretain my suspicion of the dogma which grows up around all religion(and in fact defines it). I once read a second book on Buddhism,as I liked the first one I read, but once it got on to how one shud wear a green robe on one day and wooden beads on another, etc, I rwalise that it was the same as the others,and tho I still like the imagery which surrounds the Hindu and Buddhist religions,the appearance of 'deep and mystical' is simply that- an appearance only.Christian imageryshows little Eastern influencce,as tho Eastern inorigin, was adopted by other cultures, who have invented a different,more pious imagery to illustrate their interpretation of it.(sad-face christ impaled on a cross;pious-looking saints with haloes,etc.
For all my cynicism, I feel that there IS more to all this than meets the eye, but clinging to an unfounded belief would make me feel that I had indeed missed the boat,not to mention the point,and life is too precious to waste on 'inventing' a truth;better spent on seeing the truth that is there regardless of our invention.
The Bible, which is so often said with confidence to be the 'word of god', is just a book,and noone can have knowledge of its provenance,specially since it was apparently the work of many authors overa long period;its no more relevant calling it the word of god than Salman Rushdies book, or the daily telegraph.It is quite readable here and there, tho the first bit is SO nboring, with all those begats and begots,and I had to force myself to plough through all that(yes- Ive read it;also the Koran,and the ramayana;the Quran is the worst bit of literature Ive read,scripturally,BTW).
So....................could go on some more, but the only thing I would value is knowledge, not belief; 'doubting thomas' was reviled in the story,for wanting the same thing, b ut thats part of the system of not allowing questions(make fun of the questioner!). The doubting thomas story has left a poisonous legacy, which is still perpetuated- 'dont questio- just believe'. A religion is like Tescos- it has a life of its own, regardless of the individuals which comprise it,and theres no head to cut off,(unlike the dragon slain by St George,and the Jabberwock slain by the hero in the Lewis Carrol story!)
HOping theres a few point for you to pick up and toss around in all that, and wishing yer well, as usual................
all the best.............................eggy

[egginbonce]

blimey- just looked at my post.bet none bothers to wade through all that!................go on- have a go-took me ages to type!!

Will the wind ever remember
The names it has blown in the past
And with his crutch, its old age, and it's wisdom
It whispers no, this will be the last

and the wind,whispers......................... (love it!)

[Jaguar]

Namaste Eggy, I just waded through all that.......

[jackthelad]

Just wrote a piece as long as Eggy's piece, only War a Peace was longer, took me ages, and it's disappeared, not doing it again, doubt if i can remember what i wrote. It was a bit paganistic, so i suppose you can say it is true, god moves in mysterious ways. Writing that piece took a large chunk of my life, it took so long to write.

[egginbonce]

Jun 9, 2012 2:26:41 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

Namaste Eggy, I just waded through all that.......

well done, Sugi..............im impressed at your persistence,and Im sure after rweading it, youre none the wiser-Iwasnt!..namaste!

[egginbonce]

Jun 9, 2012 4:26:20 GMT -5 jackthelad said:

Just wrote a piece as long as Eggy's piece, only War a Peace was longer, took me ages, and it's disappeared, not doing it again, doubt if i can remember what i wrote. It was a bit paganistic, so i suppose you can say it is true, god moves in mysterious ways. Writing that piece took a large chunk of my life, it took so long to write.

I'll believe you, Jack, tho thre are no doubt some who might think that you took the easy way out........................ ;D
mind you, if things are as you claim, perhaps, as u suggest, god was protecting his reputation by losing your post!(he is also hoping that noone finds it later in his rubbish bin, or his good name may become a bit tarnished!)
As we are often told, God isnt altogether in control,as theres all those devils and bad stuff about,that we have to watch out for, so its well possible that he has absently left that post just lying about to come back to haunt him later................I'll let u know if I find it............
see you in hell, as we say around here................

[roselia]

This thread has turned completely religious.

[egginbonce]

Hi Roselia.............................an wot denomination are you?

PS.failure is due to setting ones sights too high...........best not make the effort,an open another beer;even then, its not always easy to get the top off(still talking about beer,BTW!)................. ;D

[Deleted]

Egg.. You are a very interesting person.

You mentioned in your wade-thru post something about snubbing the questioning one(s) concerning our faith..

Egg. I don't mind your questions at all. I've answered to the best of my God given ability and they are not satisfying your itch so to speak..

Sorry you felt your experiences proved unsatisfactory when you visited a Christian church. I hope you would consider maybe attending another. As you are taught from the word of God, if you so incline yourself to do so.. You will discover through teachings, no one, not even God himself expects you to go in, blindly (as you made reference to) and remain blind. The word of God has a wonderfully, supernatural way of removing the veil from the eyes and hearts of those, who will hear as they are being taught the word of God.. Knowing God through his word increases the newbies faith. Newbies and even those who've been on this journey of faith a long time will continue discovering the wonders of God which man cannot fathom with his own faculties. But it is by the Spirit of God, by God, does He reveal himself to any who believe.

Believing faith must have its roots in the gospel of Jesus Christ, first.. It is the solid foundation that all other truths of God must be built upon. Once the new believer hears, receives and has a heart and tongue that vocalize the same acceptance of this great gospel, he/she is then prepared to increase their faith in God, though their be many questions.. There must be a continual hearing of the word of God. If the foundation has been properly formed in the believer's they are off in the running..

[egginbonce]

Egg. I don't mind your questions at all. I've answered to the best of my God given ability and they are not satisfying your itch so to speak..

its nice of you to not mind being grilled by such a cynic as myself, but maybe what I meant there, was not the reluctance to be questioned of individual christians, but that hte whjole church,including its history,has built into it the bottom line of 'you have to accept that the scripture is not to be doubted' ,and that 'your questions will be answered only when you believe';the ccchurrch, inorder to survive,has been subject to the same evolutionary process as living things are said by some, to be...............natural selection and survival of the fittest,ie the mechanism whereby the christian church has survrved so long is one that takes into account peoples very basic hopes and fears;namely fear of death and hope for escape from what seems to be an end........................ (oddly enough, however painful someones life is, they seemto prefer it to the (perceived )alternative).
A promise of 'life after death' might be appealing to those who dont realise that this is already guaranteed,but without any of the preconditions which christianity and other religions would put upon it (for the survival of the organism(in this case, the church)
so................religion seems to trade on the hopes and fears of all of us who find ourselves in this predicament called 'being alive',which is the unkindest cut of all..................if you dont believe, youll go to hell..............(its n ot put quite so bluntly, but that seems to precis it well)...................
hoping for your continued forbearance with my posts, and wishing you well, as always.....................eggy

[Deleted]

maybe what I meant there, was not the reluctance to be questioned of individual christians, but that hte whjole church,including its history,has built into it the bottom line of 'you have to accept that the scripture is not to be doubted' ,and that 'your questions will be answered only when you believe';the ccchurrch, inorder to survive,has been subject to the same evolutionary process as living things are said by some, to be....[/img]

Egg. You don't have to believe the gospel. Your cynicism has been factored in by God, those who would never believe the gospel and think those who do, are not thinking or believing as they should, sanely, intelligently, with logic or however felt we should. Your questions are to hopefully sway me into believing how ludicrous my faith.. Am I right? Correct me if I'm wrong?

At the moment, you and I don't see eye to eye. I am never going to turn away from what I believe to be absolute truth. Never. You are trying to help me see your logic and I have shared the gospel of Jesus Christ with you.. Neither of us agree on the others truth.. If the gospel of Jesus Christ is not believed, nothing else I share with you about the word of God will matter or make a difference to you.. Am I right? Nothing will convince you if you don't believe what must come first.. This great gospel of Jesus Christ. To the believer, it is the absolute truth, to you, it isn't.

[egginbonce]

Morning, H2H...........ther is indeed something in what you say,tho, although the word 'cynical' was used b y myself to describe my outlook, I think it was tongue in cheek,as it would be arrogant of me to be assertive wih my ideas and not temper them with self-crticism.It may have been a wrongly chosen description of my feelings, as,despite much religious thought and mysticism coming across as 'mental muddle', I feel ,to myself, that life is indeed mystical,and in that there is no cynicism.
I'm not sure that I would gain much by pesuading you that your faith is silly.....I hadnt thought that far ahead,really.............its more likely that when one has thrown out everything that its possible to throw out,anything that remains,must be more enduring(the Truth?),than that which has been discarded,and to question everything,(other than that which isnt couched in words,perhaps),is part of a discussion,bearing in mind that it is easier to ask others difficult questions than oneself..............
Of course we see eye to eye.you enjoy life, and so do I; you want to touch your innermost self, and so do I;a difference may be that you have adopted a 'formula' for so doing,which 'does it' for you but I have faith (!) that it is an unfolding process which needs no invention by me;it is self-evident.
Truth.....................now theres a big word................by definition, truth(Truth) must stand alone, with no need of words, books, or opinions to support it,and it is there whatever we invent,and needs no name and no embellishment. Smaller 'truths',usually in words, are open to argument(which is why I put it in inverted commas).
Of course youre not ludicrous...............youre sincerely doing what many people havent the courage to do;youve made a choice about your life, and youre standing by that choice,as part of it was to take on board that youd be challenged(arent we all,BTW?),to which you reply,as per your faith..'get thee behind me,Satan'!
(And yet, I feel that tho the spirit of the thing is good, that the particular assertions of most religions are rather odd...)
spk sn.............................eggy

[egginbonce]

another 'wade throug post....................'

[Jaguar]

Namaste Eggy, that was another good post of yours. Bravo.

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2012 2:20:10 GMT -5 egginbonce said:

another 'wade throug post....................'

Not to worry, I got my waders on..

I agree with Sug, by the way.. Your post was very good. You've explained how truth relates to you. It is for you, what it is.. I have no problems whatsoever, your perspective on how you define logic in what should be well thought out and believable truths concerning God, that must make sense, first, to the relatively intelligent mind.

Oh, I fully understand your stand, Egg. Oh yes I do.. I, like you, will not be moved from my stand.

[egginbonce]

Jun 10, 2012 6:21:05 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

Jun 10, 2012 2:20:10 GMT -5 egginbonce said:

another 'wade throug post....................'

Not to worry, I got my waders on..

I agree with Sug, by the way.. Your post was very good. You've explained how truth relates to you. It is for you, what it is.. I have no problems whatsoever, your perspective on how you define logic in what should be well thought out and believable truths concerning God, that must make sense, first, to the relatively intelligent mind.

Oh, I fully understand your stand, Egg. Oh yes I do.. I, like you, will not be moved from my stand.

OK then.................here we are , in exactly the same situation, but with different ideas about what it consists of...........I do have to take issue with your remark about intelligence, however, as gods truth would have to be so simple that even the village idiot can see it, should he feel the need to look............its no mystery-just a matter of looking in the right direction....its even possible that intelligence is a hindrance to seeing it, as most intelligent people are aware of the fact,and usually roll in it like pigs in s***t;this blinds them to the simplicity which is more pleasureable than complex mental meanderings...........
It is part of the fun of the medium that we share on here, that we question each others 'raison d'etre',(to be pretentious)...........I see so many things in religion which seem inconsistent that it is hard to ignore them,specially as some of the inconsistencies are vastly entertaining,and biblical references pepper my vocab(tho to a large extent ,tongue in cheek),as well as those from other scriptures.....................have you read any of the other scriptures, H2H?............the Gita is very nice, and is clearly inspired by the samr truth as you seek in christianity;it is a part of the Ramayana, which is a bit long, but has some nice bits in it, and fantastic imagery.There is also a fair dollop of nonsense,as with other scriptures(which is the nature of scriptures-they are not historical accounts,just flowery expressions of religious inspiration.)
All the attributes given to JC may or may not be so, but the connection between the events in his life, and those in mine has nevr been clearly put;onlu assertions made like 'he died for us', but no word of how that could be ,as dead he is, but you cant die for someone else; only for yourself...(surely?)
mustnt go on, or Ill have Sugi in tears(Hi Sugi ),and youll be wading through more of my nonsense,so off for a bath now(COVERED in paint!!!),and ssspk lata...................'may the light in you meet the light in me'(Tony Blair ..............eggy

[egginbonce]

'Oh, I fully understand your stand, Egg. Oh yes I do.. I, like you, will not be moved from my stand. '


Ps..I dont think that I HAVE a stand,now i come to think of it.at least, if I do, then I dont know what it is..............

[Jaguar]

Oh the paradoxes Eggy, Good Post BTW.

[jackthelad]

Always found Eggy a paradox, dictionary says that paradox means, enigma, puzzle, mystery, conundrum, anomaly, take your pick, bit like god really.
God the all powerful, not that powerful though not as powerful as the elements. God only set one bush on fire, the elements have set whole forests on fire. Jesus who is supposed to be the son of god, it's is claimed he walked on water. I actually seen hundreds walk on water, when our boating lake froze over, ice is water, so they have walked on water. All down to the elements, it certainly seems the elements are more powerful than god. Jesus brought a man back to life, those days they said it was a miracle, miracles are happening ever day. People who have died have been resuscitated by doctors and paramedics, and started to breath again, and no one says another miracle as just happened. I reckon Jesus was one of the first paramedics.
And why doesn't god do the talking, he spoke to Moses once, had him walk up a mountain to tell him what he wanted to happen. Not only was he content in making Moses walk up a mountain, he frightened him nearly to death by setting a bush on fire. Then sent him back down carrying ten tablets of stone, where has it should have been Goliath that went up the mountain, he would have been more capable of carrying the stones down the mountain. Now, god keeps mum, and has men doing the talking for him, what we are told is either second hand, or just made up by man.

[Jaguar]

Not even second hand Jack, but hundreds & thousands of hands.

[egginbonce]

good post, Jack;trouble with you atheists is that youre all gonna buuuurnnnnn.............................
must say that the ten commandments (or as some of us would have it, the ten suggestions!)story is similar to the M ormon one,except the Mormons had GOLD tablets with the book of mormon on them(a LOT of tablets,that!!!);when I heard that, and being a bit naive,I asked where the gold tablets were,as i honestly thought itd be interesting to see them, but guess what?...................that ol' angel came and took them back again..............
Mohammed was gods mouthpiece through who the Quran was dictated(apparently), so they dont have a problem with stones of gold tablets, which m ight explain why they have a lot of followers.
Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree for 40 days and night, and Jesus went into the wilderness for a similar time;both to find God(successfully, by all accounts).
The many parallels are reassuring to the faithful, that they are not barking up the wrong tree,(or at least, are in the right forest),and also suggest a common basis to many of todays religions,which isnt a surprise, as wanting to know why we're here is mans oldest desire.
God does indeed keep schtum ,Jack, which is helpful ,as it gives us plenty of room to speculate,invent, and look around....................what do we see?.....................
YES!!!!!.................a bottle of Bishops Finger, just waiting to be poured into my purloined pint glass,followed by a Tescos veg curry............ ;D ;D

[Deleted]

I'm speechless.

[egginbonce]

's unlike you,H2H........................c'mon......pipe up!
PS.bishops finger really is a beer, tho i usually go for 'hobgoblin',as its fruitier................................

[jackthelad]

Jun 10, 2012 14:19:47 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

I'm speechless.

Just like god, he doesn't have anything to say either, just has lots of interpreters to speak for him, that is why everything gets confusing in what to believe.

[jackthelad]

Brother-in-law's funeral was on Wednesday, now he was a very good Christian, but he burned, they cremated him, i think one day, we will all burn, muslims, christians, atheist's, and what you believe in. The fires of hell a wait us all, only some people are beating god to it.

[Jaguar]

Geez Jack your such a cheery fellow.......