Does God exist ?

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2011 9:38:24 GMT -5 Tosh said:

If God had the ability to make his presence known then there would be no need for books

We have already proven that to be false.

[Deleted]

Are you trying to tell us that God has spoken to you, Arch?

[Tosh]

We have already proven that to be false.

So you said earlier, and you were mistaken then, nothing has changed, still no tie.

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2011 9:46:46 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

Are you trying to tell us that God has spoken to you, Arch?

Every time my daughter hugs me.

[Deleted]

Awwww......that is sweet!

[Tosh]

Are you trying to tell us that God has spoken to you, Arch?

God may indeed have spoken to Arch but unless he said the book was true then we are back to the reoccurring paradox.

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2011 9:54:15 GMT -5 Tosh said:

Are you trying to tell us that God has spoken to you, Arch?

God may indeed have spoken to Arch but unless he said the book was true then we are back to the reoccurring paradox.

I don't understand the connection you are making the Bible being true and God and the paradox between two.

[Tosh]

Every time my daughter hugs me.

It is amazing how one small statement can change ones perception of another.

[Tosh]

Arch,

People believe the bible is true because the bible tells them it is true, it has nothing to do with faith in God.

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2011 10:07:30 GMT -5 Tosh said:

Arch,

People believe the bible is true because the bible tells them it is true, it has nothing to do with faith in God.

I agree with that.

[Deleted]

I don't understand the connection you are making the Bible being true and God and the paradox between two.

Easy. You believe that God told mankind to "write this shit down" and that is how the Bible was created. Tosh is saying that the Bible is the book that tells everyone about the existence of God, so without the bible people wouldn't even know who God is.
He likens the God/Bible correlation to the chicken and the egg quandary.

He also has stated that there are passages in the Bible that have been proven to be false. So if you take the Bible as the word of God, then how do you explain the inaccuracies without questioning someone (or something) that is supposed to be without fault?

You say that "it's man's interpretation of God's word" that's how. Which then leads you to ask "well gee....what else could "man" have gotten wrong in there" and then you spend your workdays posting on a thread about these things.

[swamp]

Sept 20, 2011 10:07:30 GMT -5 Tosh said:

Arch,

People believe the bible is true because the bible tells them it is true, it has nothing to do with faith in God.

And I don't have to think the bible is true to believe in god, if in fact, I did believe in God. The Bible is a nice collection of stories written by humans. As is the Koran and every other religious tome.

[Tosh]

I have never understood Deists or Panthenists, believing in a god that does not do anything or explain anything seems rather a pointless concept.

You might as well call the Laws of Physics, God.

[Tosh]

There is a theory that I agree with that explains our predisposition to believe in gods, spirits and the afterlife.

Humans evolved full consciousness some 100,000 years ago, our mind or ego was born, it is deduced since we think in words that complex language had to be in place. For millions of years hominids had lived a brutal and short life but were ignorantly and blissfully unaware of it.

Full awareness created a large obstacle to our survival, we became aware of the concept of death and mortality, this anxiety was a big disadvantage in a world full of mortal threats, and we devised a way to reduce it, it is called death denial.

Our mind is an observer and it feels separate, it also appears to be external in our dreams wandering about on its own. Early cognitive humans convinced themselves it was indeed a separate entity, a spirit or soul. When a family member fell down dead it seemed logical to them that the spirit simply left, all our earliest religions involve ancestors and dream worship.

The central theme of all religions is not a creator or morality, it is immortality, most of our supernatural phenomena indirectly relate to an afterlife.

Death denial is our psychological survival tool, add it to death avoidance ( morality) and you have religion.

Wotcha think campers ?

[Deleted]

I like it! (surprise, surprise )

I'd also add that mankind used supernatural beings to explain things they did not understand. I think that once we started figuring out how things work we didn't "need" a higher power anymore.

Not that I'm saying that faith is unnecessary, and I commend those who believe.

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2011 11:12:08 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I like it! (surprise, surprise )

I'd also add that mankind used supernatural beings to explain things they did not understand. I think that once we started figuring out how things work we didn't "need" a higher power anymore.

And you think we understand how things work now?

[Tosh]

Oh, Im calm, dont you worry about that.

You don't appear to be calm and it worries me deeply.

It is true for the same reason we believe 1+1=2. You cant disprove or prove this.

First of all, if we can not prove nor disprove something then it is patently not true, in any sense of the word.

One can demonstrate 1+1=2 using mathematical logic ( Principia Mathematica), can you demonstrate the bible is true using logic ?

It is what we are taught. I was not taught to believe in the Bible,

I am confused, were you taught not to believe in the bible ?

but I have done enough research to believe in it.

Excellent, I too have done much research and there is nothing in the bible that convinces me God exists, would you share your research and I will share mine ?

As I stated before. It is something you need to find on your own. You have faith in things around you so you believe. Its the same principle.

Faith my friend is belief without reason, I do not go around thinking unreasonably and I am sure neither do you.

If you do not wish to discuss these issues then I will understand.

Peace.

[Deleted]

And you think we understand how things work now?

Well, I'd say we think we do. For example, mankind used to say "that leaf is green because of God". Now we say " that leaf is green because of photosynthesis".
We understand how a plant grows, so we can use our knowledge to explain the cause instead of relying on a Divine Being as the answer.

[Tosh]

And you think we understand how things work now?

Most of us have stopped dancing for rain, but you are correct, there are many things we do not know, however this is not a reason to plug God or the supernatural into every gap in our knowledge.

I am sorry to say but death is certain, I do not believe in denying death.

[Deleted]

What is one. It represents something man made up, if man had not put a definition to one there would be no one

Along with everything else we have a name for.

[Tosh]

and to clear this up a little, What is one. It represents something man made up, if man had not put a definition to one there would be no one

I am about to waste some energy here, so hold onto your hat.

Knowledge is based on 3 axioms, consciousness, identity and existence, one can not deny consciousness exists for to do so requires consciousness, Aristotle's law of identity A=A identifies the properties required to confirm existence, and finally existence exists, to deny existence exists one must exist.

Therefore 1 exists as an identifiable property of our consciousness, and this is called knowledge, all knowledge combined creates reality.

You wish to abandon knowledge and reality to accommodate an unidentified thing with no properties to enable it to exist.

If you remove the definition of 1 then you must remove the definition of God, good luck in your search, since he is undefined even if you found him you would not know it.

Knowledge is purdy logical and fairly practical even for theists.

Peace.

[Deleted]

I like how Douglas Adams said it better.

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."
(Douglas Adams / 1952-2001 / The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

(yes I know I already posted this on the thread)

[Tosh]

Science deals in probable truths, it does not deal in absolutes, therefore I can only say that God probably does not exist.

....and pigs probably can't fly.

One thing I will say about Bronze Age philosophers, they may have known little about the natural world but they did understand the importance of human consciousness.

[Deleted]

Tosh, Have you read the book "Life of Pi"?

In the opening paragraphs the author tells you he is going to tell you a story that will make you beleive in God.

If you haven't read it, I recommend it. It is a great read.

[Tosh]

Tosh, Have you read the book "Life of Pi"?

No, I will have a look at it.

Ta.

[Deleted]

[Tosh]

Exactly, so we believe because that is what we are taught

A child believes what it is taught, a critical thinking adult seeks knowledge, and we are back to those 3 axioms again.

Knowledge is verifiable, our senses are unreliable, we devised logic and a scientific method to establish whether our beliefs were true or false. Gravity existed before we identified it, we did not just make it up.

Children were taught the sun went round the earth many centuries ago because it looked like it did, a critical thinking adult proved otherwise, it is now accepted as common knowledge. There is no knowledge that you yourself can not seek verification for, it is all available.

You wish to demolish the age of reason and return us to Bronze Age thinking, I can not just ignore or reject knowledge because it contradicts what I was taught as a child or because it contradicts my worldview.

I suggest that a worldview that is not based on reality, knowledge and truth is the poorer for it.

[Tosh]

Ok, explain to me what one is, if its not based on a definition that man placed on it

I fully agree it is a definition made by humans, we are humans, our consciousness is human, our existence is human and our identity is human. One exists because our consciousness identified its properties using mathematical logic, what has this to do with god existing ?

What have you got against human knowledge, what kind of non-human knowledge would you like me to embrace ?

Can you prove the existence of god by defining its properties using logic ?

[Tosh]

There is no mathematical logic without a human putting a definition and a formula with it. That being said, it is logic that is taught

The problem with using human logic to deny the existence or validity of human logic, is it makes your argument nonsensical and illogical.

I can demonstrate 1 exists using logic, you can not dismiss logic on logical grounds, well you can but I would not recommend it.

Now that I have demonstrated the validity of logic in determining knowledge, can you tell me why the bible is true using logic ?

[Tosh]

You can only demonstrate one exist by definition only. Which man wrote

I know, you keep saying it and I keep agreeing with you.

Man wrote logic, logic demonstrates one exists by definition only, you claim logic is no good but your whole argument is based on logic, this makes your argument no good.

Why do you not use your logic in a more fruitful endeavor and demonstrate why the bible is true.

I have researched it in great length and its contents contradict almost every single scientific theory known to mankind, logically for the bible to be true, one would have to dismiss human knowledge in its entirety, including logic of course.