Does God exist ?

[Tosh]

The logical definition of any number is to paraphrase Albert Einstein, " a number by itself has no significance and only deserves the designation of number by virtue of its being a member of a group of objects with some shared characteristics ".

This is the logical premise behind defining any number and you can not deny the legitimacy of using logic on logical grounds, because it renders your argument also as illegitimate.

Peace.

[roygrip]

[Tosh]

Im saying man decided what one is and told a story about it. The Bible is nothing more than Mans story

I now am beginning to assume you are winding me up, but I will say it one more time for posterity.

Man decided what 1 is using mathematical logic and the story is based on this logic, there is no logical premise that the bible is true.

If you accept logic then you must accept the number 1 exists, if you accept logic then the bible is not true unless you can demonstrate it with logic.

[Tosh]

Saying the bible is true because it says it is true is not a logical argument that it is true, neither is faith nor your gut instinct.

For the bible to be true you must demonstrate it using logic or with evidence, you are understandably shy about doing so.

[Tosh]

I do not need to demonstrate anything. I have my belief, and so do you. You do realize we will not agree on this, but you are entertaining

My belief is based on logic and I can demonstrate it, your belief is not based on logic and you are unable to demonstrate it.

I am glad I have entertained you, I may have to go and lie down in a dark room, I would try chanting but Buddhism is just as illogical.

regards Mr Spock.

p.s. Please tell me you are not a creationist......Nurse.....nurse !!!

[roygrip]

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2011 20:37:25 GMT -5 @rj said:

Sept 20, 2011 20:34:42 GMT -5 Tosh said:

Saying the bible is true because it says it is true is not a logical argument that it is true, neither is faith nor your gut instinct.

For the bible to be true you must demonstrate it using logic or with evidence, you are understandably shy about doing so.

I do not need to demonstrate anything. I have my belief, and so do you. You do realize we will not agree on this, but you are entertaining

So you believe that the bible is true.
Faith often defies logic.

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2011 21:21:43 GMT -5 @joey said:

Sept 20, 2011 20:37:25 GMT -5 @rj said:

I do not need to demonstrate anything. I have my belief, and so do you. You do realize we will not agree on this, but you are entertaining

So you believe that the bible is true.
Faith often defies logic.

Faith, by definition, defies logic.

[Deleted]

Faith: Belief that is not based on proof.
You cannot state that the Bible is true when there is no proof. That isn't logical.

You can however state that you believe the Bible is true.

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2011 21:55:32 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

Faith: Belief that is not based on proof.
You cannot state that the Bible is true when there is no proof. That isn't logical.

Yes, they can. People can state whatever they want to state in whatever way they wish.

I was speaking with regards to faith, religion and beliefs.
If you feel the need to state that the sky is green, good for you, go for it.

[Tosh]

Yes, they can. People can state whatever they want to state in whatever way they wish.

Oh ....the pain....the pain...ommmm...ommm...ommmm.


This is how it used to work, then we discovered the scientific method, it avoided a lot of unnecessary debate.

So I thought.

Where's my meds.

[Tosh]

OK. And, obviously you have better "understanding" of science, its applications and interpretations that others who believe in God. There are plenty of scientists who believe in God and have no conflict whatsoever in doing so. I am getting a bit tired of the "those who believe in God are anti-intellectual" schtick. If you want to discuss and debate fine. If you want to just sling the "I am soooo smarter than you nonsense" then i guess that is your game. I don't know. I thought you were here to have an actual exchange of ideas but i am not so sure at this point.

Snerdley my dear, do not confuse my ribbing with condescension, I rate goodness miles ahead of smartness.

You must confess it is difficult to discuss this sensitive topic and exchange ideas when one side of the argument consists of " I can believe anything I want ".

I am interested in why people believe things, whether it be theism or agnosticism or atheism.

My question why people believe the bible to be true is a serious question, it is not a trick question. America stands alone in the developed world for its religiosity and creationist beliefs, it is an anomaly that interests me.

For the record I do not think religious people are stupid, so there must be other reasons for such a popular belief.

Peace and stop being so sensitive, I am a lovely guy, did I mention this already ?

[roygrip]

Sept 21, 2011 6:36:44 GMT -5 Tosh said:

OK. And, obviously you have better "understanding" of science, its applications and interpretations that others who believe in God. There are plenty of scientists who believe in God and have no conflict whatsoever in doing so. I am getting a bit tired of the "those who believe in God are anti-intellectual" schtick. If you want to discuss and debate fine. If you want to just sling the "I am soooo smarter than you nonsense" then i guess that is your game. I don't know. I thought you were here to have an actual exchange of ideas but i am not so sure at this point.

Snerdley my dear, do not confuse my ribbing with condescension, I rate goodness miles ahead of smartness.

You must confess it is difficult to discuss this sensitive topic and exchange ideas when one side of the argument consists of " I can believe anything I want ".

I am interested in why people believe things, whether it be theism or agnosticism or atheism.

My question why people believe the bible to be true is a serious question, it is not a trick question. America stands alone in the developed world for its religiosity and creationist beliefs, it is an anomaly that interests me.

For the record I do not think religious people are stupid, so there must be other reasons for such a popular belief.

Peace and stop being so sensitive, I am a lovely guy, did I mention this already ?

For instance (be nice Tosh ) I believe in God that is part of everything. I do not buy formulized religion ie (whitehaired gentleman) rather a force.
I do not buy formulized religion because it is made of man, and one will tell you I'm going to hell when the other says "believe me".
There is something greater than me, I know that in my heart, that's faith.
(Here's where Tosh's science and I part) I died and experienced the "light at the end of the tunnel" That experience helped seal my belief in God, along with getting sober (I was so wretched when I asked God to help, I couldn't of done it myself) My belief comes from a scientist father, who was a b eliever. He helped guide me towards all the perfections in the universe, the beauty of nature, etc, that adds to my beliefs.
The Bible. It has evolved, thru translations, etc. A beautiful book, but written by man, a guide of goodisms to live by. Is it the word of God, exactly? I have a problem with that. Was it originally dictated as the exact word of God? I don't know. Does it contain words to live by? Yes! Do I, have I read it and follow things in it, because its a good guide to live by. Yes! Are there passages that bother me? Yes.
I pray everyday, God listens by giving me another day sober. Do I believe that? ABSOLUTELY. Do I believe there is something bigger than myself out there, ABSOLUTELY. By faith, I have no concrete proof, just my heart knows, Call me spiritual and proud of it. This is why I believe

[Tosh]

I believe in God that is part of everything. I do not buy formulized religion ie (whitehaired gentleman) rather a force.

Afternoon Roy,

Your personal experience persuades you a force exists, and I can understand this, I too believe a force exists but it is not a supernatural force. I too feel I am part of something bigger, I believe this force is the very essence of humanity, it is what makes us unique and what it means to be truly human. The moral nature of our existence is indeed a force, and I believe it is guided by our genes and our consciousness and not by some supernatural force.

The communal spirit we feel inside us is super and natural, I don't believe it is supernatural.

[Deleted]

In my opinion there probably is some truth to the stories in the bible.
The problem I have is how stories change and who translates them or changes them over time to meet their needs.

If Fox news can't get straight what happened yesterday how can we believe a story thousands of years old?

[Tosh]

No, it isn't a serious question at all. If you seriously were interested in discussing it, you would be able to find this answer. You would research and discover how the Bible came into being. People rarely want to discuss the historicity of the Bible or understand it. Most people perceive the Bible as something that just appeared (perhaps evolved one day out of the cosmo of Nothing and magically showed up on the shelf in its entirety at Barnes and Noble).

I am fully aware of the origins and contents of the bible, it does not answer the question, it would be remiss of me to assume every one believes the bible to be true for the same reasons.
The bible makes some extraordinary claims which require a lot of believing, it is only natural to seek an explanation why some believe it to be true.

I am unhappy with your inference that I am not interested in serious discussion, please retract it immediately and I will forgive you.

[Deleted]

Sometimes a good story is more important than the truth.


- one of the reasons I loved "Life of Pi"

[Tosh]

So, this belief which is essentially you "saying whatever you want" is a permissable statement but others are not or what are you trying to say?
I haven't seen any "science" that has been used at all on your part to make your case that you are Mr. Scientific Rational and that your thoughts somehow flow from that. So, feel free to post your so called science that supports the hypothesis that God does not exist.

My beliefs are based on knowledge, my emotions are natural and my worldview is a combination of my beliefs and my emotions. The philosophical position I hold on the nature of existence is not science, but it is based on reality and what exists. There are evolutionary reasons for morality and there are logical reasons for pursuing it, human well being is my first cause, I have no need for a first cause outwith time and space.

If you ask me why I think most believe in God, it would not be morality but immortality, death denial has been with us since the dawn of consciousness.

As for proving God does not exist, I can not nor do I need to, it is for those who make claim to existence to prove. I can give you logical reasons why I believe god does not exist but this is not proof.

Peace.......and remember, love thy neighbor as yourself.

[Tosh]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes a good story is more important than the truth.

White lies are appropriate when dealing with very young children, for an adult there is nothing more important than truth..

In my humblest of humblest opinions.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2011 9:56:24 GMT -5 Tosh said:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes a good story is more important than the truth.

White lies are appropriate when dealing with very young children, for an adult there is nothing more important than truth..

In my humblest of humblest opinions.

You are going to love Life of Pi!!!!!!!!

[Tosh]

In my opinion there probably is some truth to the stories in the bible. The problem I have is how stories change and who translates them or changes them over time to meet their needs.

Readers of the bible must take into account that for tens of thousands of years we relied on the oral tradition of story telling.
The style of early writing reflects this in its usage of analogies, parables, metaphors and aphorisms, abstract concepts such as love, morality, free will etc had to be delivered within a story that was both memorable and comprehensible. In order to educate a listener effectively one had to capture their imagination, a perfect example is Homer's the Iliad and the Odyssey written in the 8th century bce, it uses the Trojan war to emphasise various concepts such as homecoming, glory, respect, honour and fate.
Story tellers deliberately exaggerated their characters and their feats to keep people interested and engaged, it was the beginnings of celebrity worship.
The world of Moses, Abraham and Jesus was not the world today, those that wish to interpret the bible literally are missing the whole point of the story.

If people really believe the universe and its contents were made in 6 days then I am sorry but they are mistaken, God did not create the 7 day week.

[Tosh]

You are going to love Life of Pi!!!!!!!!

I have just read the plot, it seems quite interesting, plagiarized but never the less interesting.

[jemima]

Man decided what 1 is using mathematical logic and the story is based on this logic, there is no logical premise that the bible is true.

If you accept logic then you must accept the number 1 exists, if you accept logic then the bible is not true unless you can demonstrate it with logic.

Man decided to give value to the figure one, hence it exists. Number one is not logic on its own.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2011 10:52:28 GMT -5 @rj said:

A college Professor stood on his chair and said "If GOD really exists then knock me off this chair" Nothing happened, the class was quiet he said See now I'll give it a couple more minutes" A Marine Vet stood up, punched him in the face knocking him out and off the chair, then sat back down. As the Professor came to he looked at his student and said WHY DID YOU DO THAT? he said "GOD was busy protecting my buddies still fighting for your right to say and do stupid stuff like that! He sent me!"

See, now I'd like to think that God wouldn't want any of his believers to even bother with someone who doesn't believe in him.

[Tosh]

Man decided to give value to the figure one, hence it exists. Number one is not logic on its own.

I agree, what is your point ?

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2011 10:59:39 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

See, now I'd like to think that God wouldn't want any of his believers to even bother with someone who doesn't believe in him.[/quote]

Isn't that the opposite of what the Bible says?

[Tosh]

GOD was busy protecting my buddies still fighting for your right to say and do stupid stuff like that! He sent me!"

Assuming God is on ones side is rather presumptuous, one man's freedom is another man's slavery.

I would imagine God would be protecting all its children, including the 9 million kids under 5 that die every year of diseases he created.

God and innocent suffering is a bitter pill to swallow.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2011 11:02:39 GMT -5 @rj said:

Sept 21, 2011 10:59:39 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

See, now I'd like to think that God wouldn't want any of his believers to even bother with someone who doesn't believe in him.

No, even God has helpers, and he gets peoples attention in various ways

God should know that I don't want his attention. For an omniscient being he sure is obtuse.

[Deleted]

Yes.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2011 11:11:18 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

Sept 21, 2011 11:02:39 GMT -5 @rj said:

No, even God has helpers, and he gets peoples attention in various ways

God should know that I don't want his attention. For an omniscient being he sure is obtuse.

Just be glad he is only being obtuse and not being his old school self.